I wanted to start a thread about the compilation of Quran vs hadith by using this post of Bro Allahkabanda as a primer
Can posters contribute their knowledge about the compilation of Quran and the sources of specific verses for Quran and their narraters
and i want to ask the question again why is that some muslims are so skeptical wrt hadith but agree readily that Quran every word is 100 % accurate.Although BOTH have come down to us via the contributions of the pious salaf
Re: Compilation of Quran vs Hadith
This will be an interesting thread. I hope we get some good knowledgible participants here.
Re: Compilation of Quran vs Hadith
I’ll try to explain compilation of Qura’an & Hadeet. please correct me if i’m wrong. rest we can pray to Allah SWT k sb ko hidayat dy “Ameen”. & ignore my poor english.
By Islamic point of view issuance of order and making laws only done by Allah SWT as said in Qur’an "Hukam sirf Allah SWT ka hay". (Surah Al Inaa’m:57)
now v all believers of Qur’an know k we should only obey the orders of Allah SWT as said in qur’aan.
The Prophets when they say something it is by order of Allah SWT. They never say anything from themselves its all by will of Allah SWT. as it mentioned in Qur’an “Pass kiya hay rasoolo ke zimmay sirf yeh ke puhcha dena waziha tour pr”. Surah Al Nahal:35
“woh hamara bheeja howa rasool hay jo apni marzi se nahi bolta-woh to sirf wahi hay jo ki jati hay”. Surah Alnajam:3
In the light of above two ayats Prophet Muhammad 
whatever said and done was by the will of Allah SWT.
there are two categories of vahi
Now its loud n clear k Quran and sunnat (hadeeth) both means only one and alone Allah SWT. So v should follow both quran and sunnat (hadeeth). This is also mentioned in Quran “Farma dejiye ke agar tum Allah SWT se muhabbat karty ho to meri peravi karo. Allah SWT tum ko dost rakhy ga or tumhary gunnah maaf farma dega”. Surah Al-Imran:31
Now this ayat is cleary explained us if we follow our Prophet Muhammad (sunnat or hadeeth) we actually follow Allah SWT. Following Propeht Muhammad means we should act/do as our Propeht Muhammad acted/did, its called sunnat or hadeeth.
Hope the above will clear some points of our brother. Dua’aon mein yaad rakhain
Re: Compilation of Quran vs Hadith
There are some ahadees which do not make sense , are against shariat and contradict each other , some ahadees even can be considered blasphemous and slander.
With due respect to collectors of Ahadees they did a marvelous and outstanding job.
The used their best judgment to examine ahadees to best of their knowledge , their abilities and their the rules they established.
The only criteria they used was chain of narration and tawatur/multiplicity of sources. They did not use logic or any personal criteria. It is not a defect in itself. They wanted to very honest in what they wanted to do by keeping their personal judgment out of the picture.
They even did not put any personal commentary on the ahadees they complied because again they wanted the readers to be the judge.
Does that mean that if one hadees does not appeal to me therefore I trash the whole book , to do so will be illogical too.
Who makes me the judge of ahadees ? My own conscience.
Which ones should I pick and choose ? The ones which appeal to my rationale .
Should I enforce my criteria on everybody ? No.
Does rejecting one or more ahadees takes me out of fold of Islam ? A big noooooooo.
Re: Compilation of Quran vs Hadith
hain.... Mirch bhai what is this 'bout?
If the Quran-onlies can show me the method of Salaah (Contact-Prayers), amount of Zakaah etc. from the Quran only then I will become a Quran-only-Muslim.
It's irrelevant whether Abraham PBUH or Muhammed PBUH initiated these practices.. What I am asking for is method, as far as I know the Quran doesn't outline the method (I could be wrong), we don't have any saheefa from Abraham PBUH but we do have Ahadeeth from our beloved Nabi PBUH.
In my opnion following the Prophet PBUH is following the Quran because the Quran tells us to follow the Prophet PBUH.
So yeah.. Method of Salaah please.
I wanted to start a thread about the compilation of Quran vs hadith by using this post of Bro Allahkabanda as a primer
Can posters contribute their knowledge about the compilation of Quran and the sources of specific verses for Quran and their narraters
and i want to ask the question again why is that some muslims are so skeptical wrt hadith but agree readily that Quran every word is 100 % accurate.Although BOTH have come down to us via the contributions of the pious salaf
As-Salamu Alaykum, brother!
A monumentally important question! I can only contribute at the moment an assertion: one distinction between the Quran and the Hadith is the claim of completeness. We hold it to be true, as a matter of faith and axiomatically, that the Quran is complete. However, there is no such guarantee of the Hadith, which was a "best-effort" exercise. That is, the possibility of a "missed" Hadith - i.e. a significant matter/elaboration that simply was not transmitted down for whatever reason, cannot be discounted.
I would like to know what people make of such an assertion. Or is the Quran fundamentally similar to Hadith Qudsi? Do Ahdith Qudsiyyah enjoy the same divine promise of preservation as the Quran does (Al Hijr 15:9)?
This, though, in no way implies that what we have is not authentic.
There are some ahadees which do not make sense , are against shariat and contradict each other , some ahadees even can be considered blasphemous and slander.
I think there needs to be a clear seperation between the process of collecting Hadith, and their authenticity, and determining the meaning behind them. These are two distinct things.
Consider the Hadith which has recently caused grief in a different thread, with respect to women being less in religion and intelligence.
The particular one quoted did not have the full context of the Prophet (pbuh) exhorting women to give alms, and going on to explain why alms were a remedy for them. It is clear that a) he was addressing social issues at the time with respect to giving their husbands grief, b) women perhaps thought they had a less burden with respect to charity, c) the "deficiencies" being discussed were in fact referring to reduced obligations of women which the women had appreciated and leveraged in their daily lives. In the end, the hadith was about giving alms, not about innate qualities of women.
If something doesn't make sense to us....then perhaps it merely doesn't make sense to *us. *
I wanted to start a thread about the compilation of Quran vs hadith by using this post of Bro Allahkabanda as a primer
Can posters contribute their knowledge about the compilation of Quran and the sources of specific verses for Quran and their narraters
and i want to ask the question again why is that some muslims are so skeptical wrt hadith but agree readily that Quran every word is 100 % accurate.Although BOTH have come down to us via the contributions of the pious salaf
I think there are many points which can be argued regarding the compilation of Quran vs. Hadith. What I have seen people who reject hadith do so on a very superficial stand and have really not done much to even understand the evolution and science of hadith. In fact those same people probably have not even do much to even verify the compilation of Quran.
I think the most resounding point made by people who sideline ahadith is that it was compiled 200-300 years later whereas Quran existed from the onset of Islam itself. These points on the surface seem valid to a person who has not researched or studied the compilation in detail. Reading up a few internet articles should not be considered detailed theological study otherwise we are all Cyber scholars in that respect. One thing that people should be aware of is that though the Sahih collections were compiled well over a century after the demise of the Prophet SAW, the content of those collections did not originate with them. The collections of the Sahihain mark the theological maturity of the muslims society which culminated in these works. The reasons for the compilation of these collections were to help streamline information that existed among the scholarly circles and make it easier for distribution. Each hadith collection was written with a different aspect and purpose, this is something which is not commonly understood. For instance, Bukhari sorted the hadith into sections of jurisprudence and might I add reading Bukhari can be dangerous as well because the hadith are not always mentioned in their entirety but only portion of the hadith which is pertinent to the chapter of jurisprudence. Sahih Muslim on the other hand collected the complete narrations in each chapter. The Sunans were written to encompass those ahadith which were related to Islamic law.
The Muwatta of Mailk is the first codified collection of hadith which came out less than a century after the demise of the Prophet SAW. It is considered more authentic than Sahihain but it is not part of the Sihah Sitta. One might wonder, why? It is because all the ahadith from the Muwatta were absorbed into the Sahih collections. However among all the hadith collections Muwatta is the only one which has ahadith which are only I believe narrators twice removed from the Prophet SAW. The reason for this is the close proximity of the era during which Malik lived to the Prophet SAW and Companions RA. Therefore the criteria for the Sahih ahadith also differ among their collectors. Most of the Sahih ahadith that Bukhari and Muslim collected have narrators which are at least 3-4 times removed from the source. Even the criteria for Sahih differed between Bukhari and Muslim as it did with Tirmidhi, Nasai, Ibn Majah and Abu Dawood. These are things which are not commonly understood by many of those who refuse to take hadith into account. Perhaps they are not going the extra mile to dig for information and form their opinions prematurely. As it is said, A little knowledge can be dangerous. In this case Ignorance is NOT a bliss.
I can post more details about the groups of people who kept hadith collections from the time of the Prophet SAW later, don't remember all that now. But if one is interested, they should read pu on Ilm ul Rijaal. That is the place where you would find this information.
Now as for the Quran we all know that is was scribed during the time of the Prophet SAW among his presence and under his vigilance. However one should ponder, where did we learn this information? Bingo .... from the hadith. However what reinforces our faith in this is the fact that Quran was memorized by muslims and has been ever since its revelation. Just like a Tawatur hadith (one that has many sources of narrations, that it could not have been fabricated by so many different sources) is believed to be Sahih, Quran is much similar. So many companions and muslims has it memorized word for word that it could not be tampered with or mistaken. More people had Quran in their hearts and minds than ever its copies existed in the early stages of muslims. There was only one official copy of the Quran kept by Hafsa RA until the time of Umar RA. During the time of Uthman RA, that copy was replicated as the offical source for Quran. Another reinforcing factor here is that so many people existed during the first official compilation of Quran who were first hand witnesses to its revelation, things could not have gone wrong or tampered with. Another thing is that we actually have the copy of two Uthmani Qurans existing today and no even one scholar or person has said their are differences other than the system of punctuations for improving its readibility. I am certainly not aware if any of the original hadith collections are existent today.
As-Salamu Alaykum, brother!
A monumentally important question! I can only contribute at the moment an assertion: one distinction between the Quran and the Hadith is the claim of completeness. We hold it to be true, as a matter of faith and axiomatically, that the Quran is complete. However, there is no such guarantee of the Hadith, which was a "best-effort" exercise. That is, the possibility of a "missed" Hadith - i.e. a significant matter/elaboration that simply was not transmitted down for whatever reason, cannot be discounted.
I would like to know what people make of such an assertion. Or is the Quran fundamentally similar to Hadith Qudsi? Do Ahdith Qudsiyyah enjoy the same divine promise of preservation as the Quran does (Al Hijr 15:9)?
This, though, in no way implies that what we have is not authentic.
Very valid point. I completely agree and have thought about this many a time. Many hadith which were rejected based on the criteria of its collectors could still been veracious but lost now.
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[2:3]
This is a perfect Book; there is no doubt in it;
[/QUOTE]
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[15:10]
Verily, We Ourself have sent down this Exhortation, and most surely We will be its Guardian.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
[4:83]
Will they not, then, meditate upon the Qur’an? Had it been from anyone other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much disagreement.
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So There is no doubt about Quran since Allah Himself has pledged to protect it.
Hadith on the other hand must be tested on the basis of Quran. If certain hadith seems to be in contradiction with Quran then either it needs to be interpreted differently or rejected.
the order of precedence should be :
1) Quran
2) Sunnah of the holy prophet (pbuh)
3) Hadith
I think there needs to be a clear seperation between the process of collecting Hadith, and their authenticity, and determining the meaning behind them. These are two distinct things.
Consider the Hadith which has recently caused grief in a different thread, with respect to women being less in religion and intelligence.
The particular one quoted did not have the full context of the Prophet (pbuh) exhorting women to give alms, and going on to explain why alms were a remedy for them. It is clear that a) he was addressing social issues at the time with respect to giving their husbands grief, b) women perhaps thought they had a less burden with respect to charity, c) the "deficiencies" being discussed were in fact referring to reduced obligations of women which the women had appreciated and leveraged in their daily lives. In the end, the hadith was about giving alms, not about innate qualities of women.
If something doesn't make sense to us....then perhaps it merely doesn't make sense to *us. *
I missed this thread, which one?
Re: Compilation of Quran vs Hadith
walaikum salam bros picoico and US resident thanks for contributing
let me put some questions out there
1- what is the source of our information regarding compilation of Quran
2- Do we know who contributed vitally to the compilation of Quran ( i.e which sahaba)
plz note here i am NOT concerned about what we believe as muslims ( i.e Quran is complete and perfect) or the contradiction between certain hadith and ayahs ( plz dont bring these issues here)
*Purpose of this thread is who has transmitted the Quran to us? and HOW do we know this i.e which historical sources tell us that *
my idea is also that whole of Quran itself can be considered a super-hadith compilation transmitted directly from Prophet by 3 sahaba zayd b thabit , ubay b ka'b , abdullah b masud amongst others. If I am not mistaken the copies for all of their compilations are still available in museaums
Re: Compilation of Quran vs Hadith
look at the ground realities.
Quran does not have different versions across sects. Different sects, and sects within sects have different collections of ahadith to draw upon, different rules of selecting which ahadith to consider reliable, and so on. Nuff said.
The difference lies in the status attributed to the Quran as a Holy book, as the word of Allah. Being that it was revealed as a book, it was an important early effort to write it down, so we have authoritative compilations written by the first Muslims, and never contested thereafter. Compare that to the process by which books regarded as authentic by sunnis or shias were written down, upto a century later, drawing upon earlier fragmentory scribbles/oral transmissions, under the patronage of rulers that were by that time far enough removed from the time of the Prophet to be regarded as very capable of corruption.
To say that the processes are the same is just not true.
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look at the ground realities.
Quran does not have different versions across sects. Different sects, and sects within sects have different collections of ahadith to draw upon, different rules of selecting which ahadith to consider reliable, and so on. Nuff said.
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no thats not what under discussion the rules of selecting hadith
i dont care what criteria was used but i want to know when it was applied and which sources tell us that Quran was compiled during a specific period.
regarding same Quran across sects there is a reason for that because these sects all formed AFTER Quran was compiled.And the integrity of its content was enshirned as pillar of religion by that time.No sect or group was willing to challenge that.
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The difference lies in the status attributed to the Quran as a Holy book, as the word of Allah. Being that it was revealed as a book, it was an important early effort to write it down, so we have authoritative compilations written by the first Muslims, and never contested thereafter. Compare that to the process by which books regarded as authentic by sunnis or shias were written down, upto a century later, drawing upon earlier fragmentory scribbles/oral transmissions, under the patronage of rulers that were by that time far enough removed from the time of the Prophet to be regarded as very capable of corruption.
To say that the processes are the same is just not true
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but if i start with a copy of Quran today how can i prove who wrote it ? ( again dont answer as a muslim)
what historical record from other sources prove compilation of Quran
I know of shia ahadith saying Quran was written down shortly after the Prophets death, and I am aware of sunni ahadith saying something to the same extent. The personalities doing the writing down tend to vary. The shias for example believe that Hazrat Ali was the earliest scribe, and I believe sunnies take the canonical text to have been authorized by the third caliph. The source has to be ahadith and to a lesser extent archeological records such as ancient Qurans, I believe one dated between 10-80 years of the Prophet’s death has been found.
Completely agree. And this also points to the contrast with ahadith, which written after the sects were formed had a natural reason to have a selection bias in them.
The short answer is you cant. Its difficult to prove authorship in history. You cant prove that Plato wrote the republic. From a non-Muslim perspective the only thing that can be said about the Quran is that Muslims had a canonical text fairly early in their history, and that this text did not change beyond the addition of ahraaf etc thereafter.
Re: Compilation of Quran vs Hadith
[QUOTE]
I can post more details about the groups of people who kept hadith collections from the time of the Prophet SAW later, don't remember all that now. But if one is interested, they should read pu on Ilm ul Rijaal. That is the place where you would find this information.
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bro when we look at earliest hadith compilers they were either sahaba like abdullah b amr b a'as
or tabaeen sons of companions or grandsons ( sons of abu katada , ali b abitalib , zubair b awwam etc)
also if we look at early historians and their sources they are also from the lineage of sahaba and tabaeen ( mikhnaf , ibn masud , abu amra, etc)
furthermore there is a reliance of hadith compilers on the works of historians otherwise ilm -e-rijal will be quite problematic and thats why biographies of narraters were used by hadith scholars.
so it seems to me that none of the sciences hadith , seerah/rijal or Quran are mutually exclusive but rely on one another
Re: Compilation of Quran vs Hadith
MashAllah ... a good thread. What does it take to be a Muslim? The one who has submitted to Allah (SWT) entirely is only the one who puts his personal idea of right and wrong secondary to the right and wrong as prescribed by Him.
Likewise, we can only learn this from those who have learnt and in turn learnt from those who have learnt from the best of teachers who learnt from the best of mankind who is the best of creation (SAW). It is equally as important to have a muttawatir chain of narrators of hadith as it is to have a muttawatir chain of teachers. Only then can we learn how to create room for understanding the various scriptures. Hadith are considered scripture.
If scholars have not rejected various hadith then we should learn why, rather than placing our own weaker reasons before the opinions of scholars who no doubt have continued the position of their teachers on the same matters. Many things fail logic especially narrations with miraculous happenings, we do not reject them do we? Likewise, if we see something that 'appears' to create ethical problems then that problem in reality is in our minds until can obtain effective explanation. When obtained then we must accept that explanation 'submitting' to the wisdom and authority of our teachers over us.
Just as we place the authority of Qur'an before hadith likewise we should place the authority of scholarly reasoning before our own. In such cases it becomes hence more important to contextualise Qur'an with the hadith and in turn with the scholarly consensus. We should not use the norms of our personal lives to create bogus understandings so we end up rejecting that what those pious predecessors before us did not reject.
Submission ... true submission comes from denying oneself and placing trust.
so we need other sources to rely on to prove how Quran was transmitted to us
and the proof how early this text was used comes from historical sources too ?
so we can infer that hadith and seerah, rijal works are quite fundamental to the understanding of Quran
wa-alycum-slam
Allah SWT supported His last Prophet Muhammad PBUH with many miracles and much evidence which proves that he is a true Prophet send by Allah SWT. Also, Allah SWT has supported His last revealed book, the Holy Qur’an, with many miracles that prove that this Qur’an is the literal word of Allah SWT, revealed by Him, and that is was not authored by any human being.
The Qur’an revealed to Prophet Muhammad through the Angel Gabriel. It was memorized by Muhammad who then dictated it to his Companions. They, in turn, memorized it, wrote it down, and reviewd it with Prophet Muhammad Moreoever, the Prophet Muhammad reviewed the Qur’an with Angel Gabriel once each year and twice in the last year of his life. From the time the Qur’an was revealed, until this day, there has always been a huge number of Muslims who have memorized all the Qur’an, letter by letter. Some of them have even been able to memorize all of the Qur’an by the age of ten (this is how the Qur’an transmitted to us). Not one letter of the Qur’an has been changed over the centuries.
The Qur’an, which was revealed fourteen centuries ago, mentioned facts only recently discovered or proven by scientists. This proves without doubt that the Qur’an must be the literal word of Allah SWT, revealed by Him to the Prophet Muhammad PBUH and that the Qur’an was not authored by Muhammad or byh any other human being. This also proves that Muhammad PBUH is truly a prophet send by Allah SAW. (This is also a reason how Qur’an trasmiited to us)
**More fact **The Biblical prophecies on the advent of the Prophet Muhammad are evidence of the truth of Islam for people who believe in the Bible.
In Deuteronomy 18, Moses stated that God told him: "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account." (Deuteronomy 18:18-19 {The verses of the Bible have been taken from The NIV Study Bible, New International Version}
as i posted earlier that Allah SWT will put His words into the mouth of Prophet Muhammad and that he will declare what Allah SWT commands him. Following the path of Prophet Muhammad PBUH called Sunnat.
More fact when our Prophet Muhammad age was 40 years old Angel Gibrael approched ( 610 year of 27th of Ramadhan Month) to our prophet in hira cave (3 miles away from Makkah a mountain called Hira) and said read (surah Iqra)
The tranmission of vahi (vahi matlo) ended on our Prophet Muhammad PBUH and tramission of vahi it totally closed till the day of judgement (qayamat).
Now 'about Sunnah or Hadeeth:
Prophet Muhammad said “**Khabardar raho mujeh Qur’an diya giya hay or is ke saath is kisam ki aik or cheez bhi-Khabadar! aisa no ho ke aik shikam-ser admi apni masnad pr bheeta howa yeh kehnay lage ke ke bs tum Qur’an ko follow karo. jis cheez ko is mein halaal pao, issay halaal samjho or jis cheez ko is mein haraam pao issay haram samjoh. Jis cheez ko Allah SWT ka Rasool haram kahe woh waise hi haram hay jaise Allah SWT ki haram kirda cheez. Khabadar raho ke tumhare liyeh palto gadha halaal nahi or na cheernay pharny waly darinday halaal hay” **(Hazrat Maqdaam bin Ma’ad Yakrab narrated from Prophet Muhammad PBUH )
(Hazrat Arbaaz bin Sariya narrated from Prophet Muhmaad ) said: Kiya tum mein koi banda apni masnaad pr takiya lagay yeh samjeh ke Allah SWT ne koi cheez haram nahi ki siway in cheezon ke jin ka zikar Quran mein kiya giya hay. Khabardar raho ke Allah ki Qasam! mein ne jin batoo ka hukam diya or jo naseehat ki or jin kamo se manna kiya hay woh bhi Qur’an ki tarha hi hay. Allah SWT ne tumhare liyeh yeh hargiz yeh halaal nahi kiya ke Ah-le-Kitaab ke gharooh mein jao ya in ki auratoon ko mare-peto ya in ke phal khao, jabke woh apni zima dari pori kr chukay ho.
Prophet said :** All my Ummah will enter the heaven except those who deny. Sahaba asked who are those who deny? Prophet Said: those who follow me will enter the heaven and those who deny me will not.** Prophet Muhammad PBUH said: Jis ne meri sunnat ko zinda kiya is ne mujeh zinda kiya".
Aima-e-arba (Four Imams)
In “Rozat-ul-Ulama”, Imam Abu Hunaifa RA said “deny my comments incase of if hadeeth and comments of Sahabae-e-karam RA is available”.
Imam Malik RA said "I being a person, can give right and wrong Fatwa, read my comments carefully, if its same like Qur’an and Sunnah then accept it or otherwise deny it.
Imam Shafi RA said "When Sunnah or Rasool is there then don’t deny it on any other comments.
Imam Hanbal RA said "Those who will deny the hadeeth of Prophet Muhammad PBUH, he/she reached the edge of destruction’.