My belief is that Hadees cannot supersede Quran. iIf something is mentioned in Quran clearly and has been repeated many a times then I will accept that over Hadees . As per belief Hadees is fallible but Quran is not.
If hadees was not fallible then scholars of hadees would not have spent their entire lives determining which ahadees are sahih and which are not.
Re: kia sab Muslims jannat main jayengay??
Mirch- Only if more muslims thought the same, they would be in a much better position they are today. Once you start believing all ahadith, you start making room for other stuff a maulvi/religious "scholar"/peer says.
No Muslim sect believes in all ahadees. That is why there are so many sects. I see more people sharing my views who have studied the religion themselves , those who blindly follow a mullah and do not take the time to understand the religion do not share my views. I hope more and more Muslims start putting their time in understanding this religion to know the whole truth about it.
Re: kia sab Muslims jannat main jayengay??
^agreed. I always wondered why people believe in something that could be written centuries later and then claim it to be the prophet's words. There's so much room for error. It changes faith for what it should be...a belief in God..but no it becomes belief in something someone coulda shoulda woulda written
Re: kia sab Muslims jannat main jayengay??
^agreed. I always wondered why people believe in something that could be written centuries later
Because we are hardwired to God/Allah. :)
Re: kia sab Muslims jannat main jayengay??
Prophet Mohammed 
would not have power to overrule Allah’s command. He would be granted a right to request Allah to have mercy on some of the sinisters. That right is also given to Martyrs and to innocent kids (but is very limited in last two cases). This right does not deny Quran in anyways but goes hand in hand with Allah’s quality of Rehman and Raheem, that Quran talks about a lot.
Re: kia sab Muslims jannat main jayengay??
My belief is that Hadees cannot supersede Quran. iIf something is mentioned in Quran clearly and has been repeated many a times then I will accept that over Hadees . As per belief Hadees is fallible but Quran is not. If hadees was not fallible then scholars of hadees would not have spent their entire lives determining which ahadees are sahih and which are not.
Every Muslim's belief is the same. Hadess however helps us to understand Quran even more.
Another clarification I like to make that your objection (in red) can be thrown upon Quran itself. Quran is nothing but Hadees (words spoken by Prophet), but also with a disclaimer (by Prophet himself) that these are not his words but words of Allah. Later on Quran was compiled exactly the way Ahadees were compiled, i.e from the memory of different Sahaba's. In fact compilation of ahaadees went through more of a rigorous process than Quran. In case of the compilation of Quran, no cross checks took place and if a single sahabi came forward and mentioned that he remembered this or that ayat of Quran, it got included in the complied version. In case of Ahadess, untill and unless it was confirmed through many sources, it never was recorded as Sahi Hadee.
I fail to understand that how can we dis Ahadees and think that we can follow islam just through Quran. People who dont follow ahadees, how do they perform Namaz, how do they perform funeral prayer. how do the do Ghusl, wadhoo and all. The method of performing (actual acts) is not listed anywhere.
Above all, people who dis ahadees, how do they believe in Quran as Quran is nothing but words spoken bY prophet himself (just like Ahadees) and complied by Sahaba (just like ahadees). How can we accept one act of the same group of people and dis the similar act of the same group of people.
Re: kia sab Muslims jannat main jayengay??
great discussion......
TLK....can you shed some more light on this:
[quote]
Later on Quran was compiled exactly the way Ahadees were compiled, i.e from the memory of different Sahaba's.
[/quote]
Re: kia sab Muslims jannat main jayengay??
Hadiths are certainly an important knowledge source of Islam but there is no comparison between Quran and hadith.
[QUOTE]
Above all, people who dis ahadees, how do they believe in Quran as Quran is nothing but words spoken bY prophet himself (just like Ahadees) and complied by Sahaba (just like ahadees). How can we accept one act of the same group of people and dis the similar act of the same group of people.
[/QUOTE]
TLK has tried to oversimplify things here. Quran is not just words spoken by the prophet (pbuh) and compiled by sahabas but it is the very word of Allah and Allah Himself pledged to protect it. That is why despite wide ranging differences among muslim factions, the one thing that is common and unaltered that is Quran. That is not the case with hadiths. Hadiths were started compiling a few centuries after the holy prophet(pbuh). Although scholars have tried their level best to choose the correct ahadiths yet we should remember that it is work of humans and thus error prone. Quran and matter of its preservation is with Allah Himself. So Quran certainly has precedence over hadith.
Re: kia sab Muslims jannat main jayengay??
At the time of Prophet’s death, most of the Quran was in the form of memorized version amongst Sahaba. At the time of Abu Bakr, during a battle, majority of them got killed (one record says that 70 got killed). Then Hazrat Umar and Hazrat Abu Bakar decided to put Quran in written form, and put together a committee who collected and complied the Quran from the memory of the Sahaba.
Ahadees were informally complied by Abu Hurera and Abaullah bin Amr during the life of Prophet . They were narrated by them to many sahabas who narrated them back to their students. Scholars like Bukhari and Muslim approached those sahabas and students and collected and recorded those Ahadees. Their main focus was to collect each and every hadees from the top most source (source in the chain of narration that has least number of people between the source and Prophet). That is why you probably heard that Imam Bukhari or Imam muslim traveled so many hundreds of miles to collect one hadees. They traveled all those miles to eliminate the number of people between them and the source so the can have more of an authentic hadees.
Also, scholars like Bukhari and Muslims worked hard to get the same hadees through different chain of narrations (sources) and if they could not authenticate an hadees through multiple sources, they ditched the hadees.
Main diff between the compilation of Quran and Ahadees is the time after Prophet’s death. Former took place after 1 year and later one happened (formally) after about 90 years.
Re: kia sab Muslims jannat main jayengay??
when you say
[quote]
......but it is the very word of Allah and Allah Himself pledged to protect it.....
[/quote]
are you not relying upon the "belief" that it is the word of Allah?
I am not trying to cast doubt but simply presenting the statement that Allah pledged to protect it will not convince soothsayers that it is in fact the unaltered word of Allah.......
Re: kia sab Muslims jannat main jayengay??
Hadiths are certainly an important knowledge source of Islam but there is no comparison between Quran and hadith.
TLK has tried to oversimplify things here. Quran is not just words spoken by the prophet (pbuh) and compiled by sahabas but** it is the very word of Allah and Allah Himself pledged to protect it**. That is why despite wide ranging differences among muslim factions, the one thing that is common and unaltered that is Quran. That is not the case with hadiths. Hadiths were started compiling a few centuries after the holy prophet(pbuh). Although scholars have tried their level best to choose the correct ahadiths yet we should remember that it is work of humans and thus error prone. Quran and matter of its preservation is with Allah Himself. So Quran certainly has precedence over hadith.
I agree that I over simplified things. That was not to mislead anyone but not to go into details too much. Your words in red are hundred person right, but who brought those words to us? Was it Allah SWT who came down to earth or was it Prophet who told us that? Do you believe those words spoken by prophet? I am sure yes. Then why cant you believe other words spoken by him? Just because he never claimed that his personal words will always be protected does not automatically means that we ditch each and every word spoken by him outside Quran.
Re: Compariosn Between Qur’an and Hadith
[note]Thread splited as per discussion[/note]
Previous link: http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-and-scripture/516816-kia-sab-muslims-jannat-main-jayengay.html
Re: kia sab Muslims jannat main jayengay??
Quran certainly has precedence over hadith.
is pe to hum sab ka eeman hai. Any different belief and we would no longer be Muslim.
Re: kia sab Muslims jannat main jayengay??
Every Muslim's belief is the same. Hadess however helps us to understand Quran even more.
Another clarification I like to make that your objection (in red) can be thrown upon Quran itself. Quran is nothing but Hadees (words spoken by Prophet), but also with a disclaimer (by Prophet himself) that these are not his words but words of Allah. Later on Quran was compiled exactly the way Ahadees were compiled, i.e from the memory of different Sahaba's. In fact compilation of ahaadees went through more of a rigorous process than Quran. In case of the compilation of Quran, no cross checks took place and if a single sahabi came forward and mentioned that he remembered this or that ayat of Quran, it got included in the complied version. In case of Ahadess, untill and unless it was confirmed through many sources, it never was recorded as Sahi Hadee.
I fail to understand that how can we dis Ahadees and think that we can follow islam just through Quran. People who dont follow ahadees, how do they perform Namaz, how do they perform funeral prayer. how do the do Ghusl, wadhoo and all. The method of performing (actual acts) is not listed anywhere.
Above all, people who dis ahadees, how do they believe in Quran as Quran is nothing but words spoken bY prophet himself (just like Ahadees) and complied by Sahaba (just like ahadees). How can we accept one act of the same group of people and dis the similar act of the same group of people.
My study of the way Quran was compiled and hadees was compiled is different than yours. Quran was not compiled with the help of memory of sahaba , it was compiled with the help of written proof of all the verses and it was being scribed by designated scribes during the life of Holy Prophet(SAW)
Here is what I have studied from various sources:
Brief History of Compilation of the Qur'an
During the life of the Prophet (saas) (570-632 CE)
- The Prophet (saas) used to recite the Qur'an before angel Jibreel (Gabriel) once every Ramadan, but he recited it twice (in the same order we have today) in the last Ramadan before his death. Jibreel also taught the Prophet (saas) the seven modes of recitation.
- Each verse received was recited by the Prophet, and its location relative to other verses and surahs was identified by him.
- The verses were written by scribes, selected by the Prophet, on any suitable object - the leaves of trees, pieces of wood, parchment or leather, flat stones, and shoulder blades. Scribes included Ali Ibn Abi Talib, Mu'awiyah Ibn Abi Sufyan, Ubey Ibn Ka'ab, Zayed Ibn Thabit.
- Some of the companions wrote the Qur'an for their own use.
Several hundred companions memorized the Qur'an by heart.
During the caliphate of Abu Bakr (632-634 CEUmar Ibn Al-Khattab urged Abu Bakr to preserve and compile the Qur'an. This was prompted after the battle of Yamamah, where heavy casualties were suffered among the reciters who memorized the Qur'an.
Abu Bakr entrusted Zayed Ibn Thabit with the task of collecting the Qur'an. Zayed had been present during the last recitation of the Qur'an by the Prophet to Angel Jibreel (Gabriel).
Zayed, with the help of the companions who memorized and wrote verses of the Qur'an, accomplished the task and handed Abu Bakr the first authenticated copy of the Qur'an. The copy was kept in the residence of Hafsah, daughter of Umar and wife of the Prophet.
During the caliphate of Uthman (644-656 CE)Uthman ordered Zayed Ibn Thabit, Abdullah Ibn Al Zubayr, Saeed Ibn Al-Aas, and Abdur-Rahman Ibn Harith Ibn Hisham to make perfect copies of the authenticated copy kept with Hafsa. This was due to the rapid expansion of the Islamic state and concern about differences in recitation.
Copies were sent to various places in the Muslim world. The original copy was returned to Hafsa, and a copy was kept in Madinah.
Three stages of dotting and diacritizationDots were put as syntactical marks by Abu Al-Aswad Al Doaly, during the time of Mu'awiya Ibn Abi Sufian (661-680 CE).
The letters were marked with different dotting by Nasr Ibn Asem and Hayy ibn Ya'amor, during the time of Abd Al-Malek Ibn Marawan (685-705 CE).
A complete system of diacritical marks (damma, fataha, kasra) was invented by Al Khaleel Ibn Ahmad Al Faraheedy (d. 786 CE).
Now about ahadees , I do not reject all the ahadees. If we throw all ahadees out the window then we will have those problems as you mentioned above.
Re: Compariosn Between Qur'an and Hadith
My belief is that Hadees cannot supersede Quran. iIf something is mentioned in Quran clearly and has been repeated many a times then I will accept that over Hadees . As per belief Hadees is fallible but Quran is not.
If hadees was not fallible then scholars of hadees would not have spent their entire lives determining which ahadees are sahih and which are not.
I agree.
Re: kia sab Muslims jannat main jayengay??
- Umar Ibn Al-Khattab urged Abu Bakr to preserve and compile the Qur'an. This was prompted after the battle of Yamamah, where heavy casualties were suffered among the reciters who memorized the Qur'an.
- Abu Bakr entrusted Zayed Ibn Thabit with the task of collecting the Qur'an. Zayed had been present during the last recitation of the Qur'an by the Prophet to Angel Jibreel (Gabriel).
**Zayed, with the help of the companions who memorized and wrote verses of the Qur'an, accomplished the task **and handed Abu Bakr the first authenticated copy of the Qur'an. The copy was kept in the residence of Hafsah, daughter of Umar and wife of the Prophet.
.
Mirch I wrote pretty much the same thing that you wrote. I dont see much difference than the diff in details.
Re: kia sab Muslims jannat main jayengay??
iIf something is mentioned in Quran clearly and has been repeated many a times then I will accept that over Hadees .
Also, with a strong protest, I want you to give examples as where the people who also believe in hadees ever gave priority to hadees over something that is repeated many times in Quran. I urge you to substantiate your claim as words like yours give a bad name to the people who consider hadees as part of shariat, and also sway fence sitters away from ahadees as they think that ahadees lovers put Sahi Bukhari over Quran.
Please dont write such statements unless you are aware of the long term effects of such
Re: kia sab Muslims jannat main jayengay??
This comment of mine has a context which is here :
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-and-scripture/516816-kia-sab-muslims-jannat-main-jayengay.html
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-and-scripture/516816-kia-sab-muslims-jannat-main-jayengay.html#post8439991
and some more subsequent posts .
I was not saying anything against anybody I was portraying my beliefs.
Now you owe me an apology to jump the gun and putting word in my mouth. I have nothing against hadees lovers or munkir a hadees , they have their own beliefs and I do have mine.
Re: kia sab Muslims jannat main jayengay??
my comment was based on the face value of your post, not in reference to any context.
apology extended from my side.
Re: Compariosn Between Qur'an and Hadith
problem with hadeeth is that its misused a LOT.!!!!! This is not to say that value of hadith is to be undermined....absolutely not..........but the point is ....hadith have been subject to a lot more ..lets say....controversy regarding authenticity....
People cite all sort of Zaeef hadith to substantiate their claims.......which slowly causes wildly different interpretations and beliefs........