Collective Punishment

Society Religion & Philosophy
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In the Quran, there are instances where full nations were destryoed by Allah due to sins of some or even many (homosexuality etc)

Do you think such collective punishment is right or wrong?

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Re: Collective Punishment

if your talking about the Quran, then you should have already realised that God took back what was his.

life doesnt belong to us, life belongs to the creator, Allah (swt)

the meaning of death is different in islam as compared to say liberalism

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Re: Collective Punishment

You may have to read the background of the story behind the full destruction of the nations.

As a personal suggestion,We have limited knowledge thats granted to us by ALLAH so we are not worthy enough to judge HIS actions.

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^ thats right. Moreover, the point is that when Allah sends His messengers for the betterment of nations and they not only reject the message but also disgrace the messenger, call him liar and sorcerer and put forth every effort to stop him and/or insult him. Though such actions are done by some but when there is tacit or active support to their actions among the masses, then trust me Allah don't spare them. for reference, read surah Shams.

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Re: Collective Punishment

I think collective punishment is more effective in getting Allah's message of righteousness across. If only a handful of people were punished, people will selfishly think "well at least that didnt happen to me".

Also, even if some good people died amongst the collectively punished, Allah (SWT) will judge them individually

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Re: Collective Punishment

Where exactly did this collective punishment happen ?

i cant think of any one.

for example you mentioned homosexuality, in that case the whole nation was involved in homosexuality, not just a few persons.

Islamic view of Lot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also, Allah will never punish an innocent person. end of story.

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No the wives and kids were not ivolved in the homosexulaity, only male adults were …

To answer what the OP asked … there is a hadees. A long one but this the summary.

A analogy of ship with upper and lower deck. Lower deck people ran out of water and started drilling hole in the bottom of the ship. Upper deck people did not stop so they went down the river with them.

Now how do you stop if you see buraa’i around you. There is another hadees. Use force or verbally express your displeasure or at least think that what is happening is wrong.

Have you seen attitude nowadays. People say, ‘we dont want to interfere if someone is doing wrong, wo jaanay aur allah jaanay’. That means that you did not do any of the above mentioned 3 things that hadees mentioned so you wnet down down the drain like the people of upper deck in first hadees.

You pay for your sins, whether you are an active part of it or passive part of it.

In the end, if you were really a pious person and just got caught in that destruction, then you are shaheed automatically.

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Re: Collective Punishment

so wouldn't it be best to let innocents, especially kids, caught in accidents and disasters just die and be shaheed? why would you ruin their heavenly chances by rescuing them?

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when there is so much evil around you, you see no evil you hear no evil :)

look at queer as an example ( just jking )

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if you dont rescue them then they will be shaheed but you will become a the sinner of letting them die.

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Peace TLK

Thanks for the answer ... I think queer in his attempt to find flaws provides a basis for an even better response. I think plurality in judgement can be hard to fathom ... but all he needs to realise is that Allah (SWT) is not just the Lord of the victims in disasters, but of offenders and the onlookers all that the same time.

He is Lord of all and sundry ...

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In those examples, the ones who continued to transgressed were punished while those who obeyed Allah and followed the prophets were saved. There's nothing wrong in that.

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Read specifically the story of the people of 'Aad (to whom Hud (as) was sent) and the people of Thamud (to whom Saleh (as) was sent).

The entire nations were wiped out even though the transgressors amongst them may not have been the whole nation.

For example, the people of Thamud were wiped out because of *9 people alone *(see ayah 27:48) who plotted to kill the she-camel which was the miracle Allah swt bestowed upon them. After Saleh (as) brought the message of Allah swt to the people, they believed. One interpretation (and I am not yet aware of any others) is that because they did not try to stop those 9 people - their silence / passivity caused the whole nation to be destroyed.

This is probably why we are commanded to enjoin good and forbid evil.

In any case we should remember that Allah swt knows what we don't know - He is the Greatest Judge of all.

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Re: Collective Punishment

All i gota say is that Who are we to Question Allahs Motives and Actions.

and secondly, had all the previous things not had happed ..'yea_boi' wouldnt be here to open a thread ... and this nation would nt have come into existance..

and if you wana actually talk on collective punishment .. this nation really the one to have teh collective punishment .. cos even if the previous nations sinned and they were destroyed ..and now we re told by Allah to learn from previous mistakes ..and no one learn ..then this nation deserves DOUBLE punishment ..

anyways, Allah is all wise and aadil.. HE knows best ..

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A nation being destroyed does not imply that death is a form of punishment. Death is the end of your stay in this world per Islam. The suffering before the moment of death may be a form of punishment intended to erase some of our sins or it may also be a test of our faith in Allah SWT. This is something we cannot accurately fathom. A persons punishment or reward is alotted after judgement not death.

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Re: Collective Punishment

ok, so what I gather from the responses here is that whoa re we to question Allah's motives/decision. Allah must have a reason to inflict collective puishment on all of tha nation (incl innconet women/children) due to rampant homosexuality.

So let's kind apply this concept today. As we all know, Pakistan, is one of the most corrupt countries in the world. Corruption isnt only at top echoleons but is also rampant among all levels of scoeity. So if Allah destroy us (through earthquakes and what not) as to how one poster (fbi) suggested to set an example for other nations, would you be guys find that reasonable?

Afghan Taliban chief Mullah Mansour killed in Balochistan..thank you America Shareef
Afghan Taliban chief Mullah Mansour killed in Balochistan..thank you America Shareef
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Re: Collective Punishment

In answer to your question. Yea_Boii. Let's take the example of Prophet Noah AS. He actually preached for almost 800 years !! And only a handful of people embraced the faith. There were many instances when the Angels according to the Quran, said that if he wants they could destroy the entire nation. But he never lost hope, kept trying.

Even when Allah commanded him to make a ship and his fellow pagans and non believers ridiculed him. Till the last moment, he even asked his wife to come accept the true faith and save herself.

In short, all the nations who have had some sort of a punishment inflicted upon them collectively, had AMPLE warnings and guidance offered to them in the form of all the Prophets that came to them. But they did not listen. Even worse they indulged in worst form of insult and physical torture to them.

So collective punishment in those cases was NOT wrong as those people had openly sinned and deserved every bit of it. Same goes for The nation of Aaad, Samodh, and that of Hazrat Loot AS.

Meanwhile, one would have heard of the same incident when a whole town of non believers was saved just because ONE old man prayed alot and was a true believer and had asked Allah's mercy!

The biggest example would be the current Muslim Ummah as well as the entire human population. Had the Holy Prophet (SAW) not asked Allah to have his unlimited mercy on us, we would have been wiped off totally uptil now, owing to all the extreme forms of wrong going around in the world :)

Pakistan Army hands over Angoor Adda border crossing facility to Afghan forces
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Re: Collective Punishment

I think we're making a fundamental error in the way we are dealing with the concept of 'death' in this thread. When Allah swt takes life away it cannot be measured by the same yardstick as we apply to humans e.g. one human being killing / executing another.

As has already been pointed out by others above, Allah (swt) causing a human being to die (innocent or evil) is His prerogative (regardless of whether it is alone or with his/her nation) - it is not necessarily a punishment for that person.Death happens to everyone - I doubt it's ever pleasant.

So yes - once we submit to the Will of Allah (because we accept Him as al-Haqq) and establish the foundation in our hearts and minds that Allah swt is the greatest authority, then who are we to question His Will?

Ps. If Allah swt chose to destroy a nation today, it would definitely make sense. Our nation is afflicted with practically every problem that the people of Noah, Hud, Saleh, Ibrahim, Shu'yab etc etc (rA) were afflicted with...

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Re: Collective Punishment

So abeera, would you be glad if Allah inflicts pain on Pakistan (ie on women/children)? afterall they have to pay for our sins, right?

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Re: Collective Punishment

'they have to pay for our sins' - you still don't understand :) In Islam, nobody pays for the sins of anybody else.

Proof:

'And whatever [wrong] any human being commits rests upon himself alone; and no bearer of burdens shall be made to bear another's burden'. (Al-Qur'an 6:164)

I reiterate: 'None shall bear the burden of another'. Also see 17:15 and 53:38 where it says the same.

I did not say I would be glad - I said it would make sense. Please read my words carefully bro.

Any country - I'm not patriotic.