CJ and the historic stay at Army House (merged)

Re: 5 hours...4 days...never to be forgotten....

sure man..get all to resign.
but based on facts and not just allegations. and it applies to all.
right now the case is against ifti, lets hope justice prevails, and if you look at it from an abuse of office perspective her has done so.

once this is over, in a court of law, I will be more than happy to support similar invstigations against the prime minister, the president and really and and all politicians and military officers.

I would however hope that they are managed better by people being investigated and not made into political causes.

The praises I sing of musharraf or shaukat are for what they have done right. I can not ignore ether their or iftis good work due to their dodgy stuff, niether can I ignore the dodgy stuff because of the good stuff they have done.

The challenge here is that we want to absolve the guy we like of all hs sins, and for those we dont like we wont give them credit for anything they have accomplished.

But that is how politics are done in pakistan.

Re: 5 hours...4 days...never to be forgotten....

none of that allowed inside the court room. I am going there tomorrow to hear Fakhar Ud Din G Ebrahim. He's one of those judges who resigned after refusing to take oath on Zia's PCO. I am not sure if he resigned from SHC or SC. But he's supposed to be among the most respectable lawyers around.

Re: 5 hours...4 days...never to be forgotten....

Sure but why wait for shauky and Mushy's accountability? Why not do it simultaneously? At the rate things r going, I am not sure they'll be around by the time we're done with the CJ case.

An observation of Justice Khokar during the last time I was there: Originally, in our constitution the executive wasn't allowed to send references against Justices on whims. It had to go through the legislative scrutiny. Zia changed that. Moreover, the whole of judicature provisions in the constitution were passed without much debate when the whole opposition had walked out in protest. Tiny little things that end up screwing countries later on.

Re: 5 hours...4 days...never to be forgotten....

sure man so start their legal accountability proceedings right now, I will sign on that petition.

let ifti's hearings continue and no matter what he has done for the country or not, if he is guilty he is guilty.

lessons learnt- opposition should not walk out in protest :)

Re: 5 hours...4 days...never to be forgotten....

how convenient sir. If urs is such a principled stand, how come I dont hear a single word of condemnation from u regarding what happened on 9th March?

Re: 5 hours...4 days...never to be forgotten....

There are plenty of people saying it already.

I can also say that if yours is such a pricnipled stance why I dont see condemnations from you regarding ifti's pulling strings for his unqualified son, or harasssing journalists or forcing tv stations to broadast public apologies :)

Or we can say that we are just trying to shoe the opposte side of the coin.

PS: Lets focus on the issue at hand. and the issue is that ifti screwed up and its proven, his sorry ass needs to be fired.

PS2: so let me guess, no petition circulating for investigation of musharraf and aziz? start one, I will sign it

Re: 5 hours...4 days...never to be forgotten....

i think SC..

Re: 5 hours…4 days…never to be forgotten…

Ousted judge ‘was illegally held’

**Pakistan’s suspended chief justice has said he was “illegally detained” by the country’s secret service heads when he was removed from office in March. **

Iftikhar Chaudhry made his allegations in an affidavit to the Supreme Court. It is the first time the judge has given his version of what happened.

Mr Chaudhry’s lawyer also told the court that Gen Musharraf had “personal malice” against the ousted judge.
Protests over the suspension have grown into a campaign against the government.

The president, who is also army chief, is accused of trying to stifle the independence of the judiciary in an election year.

He accuses Mr Chaudhry of abuse of office, a charge the judge denies.
Observers say the anti-government protests are the most serious challenge to the president’s authority since he seized power in 1999.

‘Innocent’
Mr Chaudhry won the right to have his case heard by the Supreme Court at the start of May.

On Tuesday, his lawyers summed up their arguments, and for the first time released details of what happened when the president tried to persuade their client to resign.

According to the court affadavit, a copy of which the BBC has seen, the heads of three Pakistani intelligence services spent five hours putting pressure on Mr Chaudhry to resign.

The chief justice says he was called to a meeting at Army House in Rawalpindi to be confronted by the president and senior government figures, as well as the director-generals of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), Military Intelligence (MI) and the Intelligence Bureau (IB).

Mr Chaudhry says he was then accused of abusing his powers as a judge and acquiring assets far beyond his income, as well as using his position to acquire a government job for his son.

The chief justice says “he denied the veracity and credibility of these allegations”.

When he pointed out that his Mercedes had been sent by Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz himself, the latter chose to remain silent, the affadavit says.
Subsequently, according to the chief justice, the president asked him to resign and if he did so willingly, he would “be accommodated”.

If not, then he would face “a bigger embarrassment”.

Mr Chaudhry says he refused and said that he would fight all charges against his person.

“I wouldn’t resign… since I am innocent,” he told the president, according to the affidavit.

The affidavit says President Musharraf stood up angrily at this reply and left the room, followed by the prime minister and other staff.

‘Phone lines cut’

Mr Chaudhry says that he was then made to stay in the room for the next five hours while the intelligence heads insisted he resign.

The affadavit says the judge tried to leave several times but was “confronted by an officer who prevented his exit”.

When he was finally allowed to leave he was prevented from going to the Supreme Court and found his residence surrounded by security personnel, the affadavit says.

All phone lines were blocked, it says.

The chief justice alleges that his entire family was held under virtual house arrest for the next four days, with no visitors allowed and access denied to medical facilities and doctors.

The government has at various times denied charges were brought against the chief justice without his prior knowledge.

It has also denied detaining him against his will.

President Musharraf denies any personal animosity towards the judge and says he was acting out of constitutional duty.
The government’s lawyers are expected to submit their replies to the affidavit on Wednesday.

Re: 5 hours...4 days...never to be forgotten....

What I know, there are different types of government posts. Regarding Pakistan (if I am wrong, please correct me):

There are people holding political posts in Pakistan: These people are entitled to anything what Parliament has entitled them, that includes car engine size above 1600cc. For instance, President, Prime Minister, Governors, Chief Ministers, and many Ministers can even be entitled to bullet proof Mercedes. Engine size in public political posts is irrelevant. These people occasionally cater foreign delegates, and suppose to represent prestige of the country, so they using higher ‘cc’ car is acceptable.

There are people holding civilian (non-political, non-military and non-law enforcements) posts in Pakistan: They are entitled to what parliament and government decided for them. I believe that those who are entitled to car in such posts, they are officially only entitled to max of 1600cc car at highest position (unless special circumstances and need of the post is there, that happens when escorting foreign delegations or appointed as representative in foreign countries).

People in such posts, but are in geological survey departments, or those living in area where car cannot be used due to terrain, or those who regularly had to visit such terrain, could be entitled to Jeep, that are much above 1600cc. I believe that people in posts where they have to continuously cater foreign delegates, businessmen, and those that are heading semi-government institutions may also be entitled to above 1600cc car. CJ or judges are such civilian posts that are not entitled to a car above 1600cc (neither they need one).

There are people holding military and law enforcements posts in Pakistan: These people due to their professional requirements and movement in inhospitable terrains or professional needs can be using above 1600cc car. For instance, as professional requirements, people in armed forces can be using jeeps, trucks and tanks, that all have above 1600cc engine size. Similarly, people in police and customs may need higher ‘cc’ cars and jeeps as requirements of the job. All trucks, tankers, and lorry drivers employed by government mostly drives above 1600cc vehicle (i.e trucks, tankers, and Lorries are all mostly above 1600cc vehicle)

Well, if CJ wanted to move around in higher ‘cc’ vehicle, I don’t know why CJ went into judiciary profession. He could have been much better as truck, tanker or lorry driver. Don’t you think so?

[Note: I do agree that there are many corrupt holding crucial posts in Pakistan and all should get sacked. CJ might have had deprived childhood and thus was so much bothered for such mundane things as car size, protocols, and pushing his incompetent child, but maybe he was doing rest of job reasonably. Probably President appointed him in first place on CJ posts because he might have thought that CJ is committed person. But I believe that even President must have taken aback when such issues were raised to President against CJ. In front of allegations that CJ demanding protocols and facilities that CJ was not entitled to, plus forcing his incompetent son into government job, I think that it was duty of president to ask for explanation and if not, move a reference against him.

Actually, thing that makes me feel worse about CJ was that he pushing his incompetent son into government jobs, as these types of very things is the real cause for spreading corruptions and injustices in Pakistan. When CJ pushed his son, he also deprived someone capable that should have been holding the post his son is holding, means that is injustice itself. I could not understand a society that supports a judge who was unjust.

CJ also stole treasury by asking more than his entitlement and getting it.]

Re: 5 hours…4 days…never to be forgotten…

well that doesnt seem to be the motive…as all of this case seems to be politically motivated…

according to the cj…on 9 march as well the president told the CJ that he could be accomodated if he’d resign from the post of CJ…

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007\05\30\story_30-5-2007_pg1_1

if the president offered the cj some other post…that shows that the president himself isnt that clean either…

the only thing that comes out from all this issue is that the president wanted himself to be “selected”…i mean elected from his handpicked government this year…and he wasent sure whether the cj would approve of that…keeping in view his past independent decisions…

Re: 5 hours...4 days...never to be forgotten....

Good point(s).

Re: 5 hours…4 days…never to be forgotten…

shameful… just shameful…

what the whole world has said about all that…just shameful…

Re: 5 hours...4 days...never to be forgotten....

Thanks

Re: 5 hours…4 days…never to be forgotten…

First thing that surprises me most is this assessment of ‘motive’ according to assumption. I would love to have the power to know the motives of others, it would really help :). Actually I believe that this seems to be cultural thing in Pakistan, that to judge others on motives. I find a couple stuck in rain and tried to help them with good intentions, and husband would start assuming that I have some hidden motives, like having an eye on his wife, what a farce! :). A girl looks at me and smiles because I look funny, I start thinking that her motive is to get married to me. Isn’t that ridiculous? :). Isn’t all these motive things are farce, without any real reasons? I believe that if one really want to asses someone motives, its best to assume something good there, right?

As for President saying that he could accommodate CJ if he resigns, does not mean that President condoned CJ actions. I don’t think so. To me, it only means that President knows that most in Pakistan are corrupt and such mundane corrupt actions of CJ is normal amongst most Pakistani. He also knows that there are many around him that does that and nevertheless, he might have found some good in CJ. Still, such person as CJ is not a good choice, so for President, even if CJ resigns, President must have thought that he could still try to accommodate CJ, that’s all.

[We should remember that CJ was there because of President, else he could not have got to CJ post. Person on CJ posts is selected by President on his discretion, like chief of army staff. President had good relation with ‘Iftikhar Chudhri’ and there was no personal issue with CJ, so what President said shows that he was assuring CJ that not to worry, even if he resigns, he would be taken care of, in one way or another].

Why? How can you come to that conclusion? First of all, presidential election is due between 15 Sept and 15 Oct. That is constitutional. Assemblies that would be there at that time would elect the president is also constitutional. Why President should be worried about that? Do you mean that if such enquiry would have come to Supreme Court, CJ would have given non-constitutional decision?

Still, even if President wanted to go with non-constitutional thing, is there any power to stop that? In that case, why President would go for election anyhow? If he really wants to go for non-constitutional means, he would just use same method that he used to come to power first time, right? Anyhow, that is not an issue to me. Issue is that, what constitution says? And according to constitution, election should happen between 15 Sept and 15 Oct from assemblies present at that time.

Nevertheless, why scare of this CJ regarding that matter? Isn’t this CJ expert in nepotism and promoting his son? If it is good for CJ, he could do anything. CJ can even use his office to benefit anyone that suits him, right? I believe that if President was thinking on re-election issue and if re-election was unconstitutional (that it is not), and if he was worried, who could have been better person than Ch Iftikhar to endorse that, an expert in bending rules, as what he did for his son, right?

So, I believe all your assumptions regarding motives do not stand. :slight_smile:

Re: 5 hours…4 days…never to be forgotten…

:k:

CJ and the historic stay at Army House (merged)

CJ’s people have been telling some porkies it appears. :nono:

http://thenews.jang.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=8182

*Quote: Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry has left unanswered a vital question whether he was “called” to the Army House by President Pervez Musharraf on March 9 or he had met him at his own request. **In his lengthy affidavit filed with the full court on Tuesday, the chief justice simply ignored the controversy, leaving many to conclude that he was perhaps not summoned to the Army House on the fateful day. **It was earlier widely believed that Musharraf had called Justice Chaudhry to read to him, while attired in military uniform, the charge-sheet that formed the basis of the reference. *The chief justice’s session with the president was apparently scheduled to be held at the Army House, as is the case with most appointments with Musharraf. It, thus, appeared to be a routine meeting.

Justice Chaudhry did not clearly say in his affidavit whether he visited the Army House because of his scheduled appointment or was called there. But what he stated in it obviously established that he went to the Army House in the wake of a prior appointment. “On March 9, 2007, Justice Chaudhry headed Bench No 1 of this Honourable Court as Chief Justice of Pakistan and heard several cases till about 10.30 a.m. The Bench rose briefly and had to reassemble for the day except Justice Chaudhry, who left for the Army House, Rawalpindi, to meet the President of Pakistan.” As indicated in the affidavit, the meeting was meant to discuss the South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation (Saarc) Law Conference, Saarc Chief Justices Conference and the concluding session of the Golden Jubilee ceremonies of the Supreme Court.

](http://thenews.jang.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=8182)

Re: Was CJ really called to Army House?

Does it matter?

Re: Was CJ really called to Army House?

Depends on which side of the argument you take. If one is impartial, then it does matter.

However, to many it does matter because the people that support the CJ have been making a big deal about the fact that a uniformed President summoned the CJ to the army barracks.

Now it is clear that it was the CJ who was meeting the uniformed president by prior appointment, and has done that on regular basis previously, before this crisis.

Re: Was CJ really called to Army House?

nah uh. The big deal was abt the fact that the President met the CJ in his fatigues. Whether he was called or he went sought an appointment, the fact that Musharraf tried to repeat the same stunt that he pulled with Dr. Qadeer Khan riled up the lawyers. Musharraf admitted that it was a mistake himself. Its a non issue.

Edit: Notwithstanding the fact that after reading the article its clear that its nothing but trashy journalism. Nothing unexpected from The News:

[QUOTE]
It was supposed to be a tell-all account. Maybe, the Official Secret Act became an impediment to the narration of the whole story.
[/QUOTE]

Re: 5 hours...4 days...never to be forgotten....

If we take it the other way: Musharaf let the kid speak his heart out and replied in a calm composed tone when he was finished.

Edit: Here I am talking about the Madrassah kid who spoke in front of Musharaf in the famous video clip. I ain't calling the CJ a kid, yaar.