Re: Circumcision
nice replies dr sufi
Re: Circumcision
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Assalam-o-Alaikum to all Gup-Shup guys
It is my first post to this interesting forum.
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Walekium salam and welcome to the board.
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Regarding circumcisionm let it be known that it is not that it is not 'FARZ' or 'WAJIB',
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Yes Allah never asks to do so and neither theres forbiding to it.
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but it is a practice which was highly recommended and liked by Holy Prophet Hazrat Muhammad, peace be upon him.
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I know it was a practice which goes back in history. But for sake of judgement lets ponder the hadiths inrelation to subject. I hope you can quote some.
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In this regard it is a 'SUNNAT-E-MOÁKIDA' meaning thereby, anything about which some 'TAKEED' is issued or recomended.
so anybody who does not get it done will not be put to hell, or punished.
But anybody who denounces it as a SUNNAH, will be dealt accordingly by Allah Almighty.
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In this case a critical answers is, the most authentic 'sunnah' we get from prophet Mohammed is quran.
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Moreover anyone, who believes in the authenticity of this SUNNAH and can manage to get it done but deliberately avoids it, may end up in getting some sort of punishment.
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I donot question sunnah here. What I understand when I STUDY quran, theres no binding and no punishment as far as the circumcision is concerned. How do you say 'may end up getting some sort of punishment'.
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In Urdu and/or Arabic, it is called 'KHATNA' and the one who is circumcised is called 'MAKHTOON'. Contrary to the popular belief, apart from Muslims, Jews also practice circumcision. In Judaism, it is obligatory for boys/men to get it done. Christianity on the other hand is not very particular in its recommedation and views are different in various Christian sects. The statement that Hazrat Abrahim (AS) was the first one to get it done at the age of 80 is probably a biblical belief
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I certainly agree and its in 'Torah'. Again I dont want to sound wierd, but there are refrences which beyond that era.
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According to certain Islamic sects and Fiqah, most of the Prophets were born naturally circumcised or were 'MAKHTOON' by birth like our Holy Prophet.
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Atleast ponder does this fit your common sense ?
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Now coming on to the medical aspects of circumcision, it is strongly recommended. Let me explain in very simple terms. The loose skin over the male genitals is called 'Prepuce' and the tip of genitals is called 'Glans'. When uncut or uncircumcised, this loose skin overlying the Glans, develops, traps or grows in it, a specific germ or bactera called 'Bacillus Smegmatus' which forms a dirty sticky fluid called 'Smegma'. Interestingly, modern research has postulated a link between the cancer of male genital and this bacteria. Moreover, there is small surgical emergency, in which, this loose skin may become contracted, following infection, forming a tight band on the male genital leading to retention of urine or simply inability to pass urine at all. It is called, 'Constricting Phimosis' and it has to be surgically corected.
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This is irrelevant since you have agreed the critics are equal.
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So it must be remembered by all that Circumcision is a Sunnah, which should be encouraged both from Religious and Medical point of view. The notion that boys in west are not getting it done, is probably becuase of monitary reasons and not religious or medical. One thing more, the best age is still the one which has been advised by the Holy Prophet Hazrart Muhammad, peace be upon him, and i.e., 7th day, although some medical centres recommend it at an age of 2, 4 or even 6 weeks.
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No comments.
Finally drsufi uptill now its been a genral discussion. I dont think this topic so very important. Otherwise we can do some serious research and discussion.
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See you again sometime. Khuda Hafiz.
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Allah hafiz!
cheers!
Re: Circumcision
Respectable hareem01
Assalam-o-Alaikum
Thanks for the compliments. Reagrds.
Khuda Hafiz.
Re: Circumcision
Respectable Truthfinder
Assalam-o-Alaikum
Since, I am kind of new on this forum, therefore I am not entitled for a private message as yet. Anyhow, I'll take this opurtunity of availing this open forum to personally thank you for your kind perusal of my post. I fully agree Sir, that this topic was, and is, not that important. It was all the more kind of you to have asked an introduction from a humble man like me. Sir, I am a Doctor by profession, employed in Government Service. I hail from Lahore and have interests in the subjects of Religion, History and Sufism. Neither a master, nor a jack of anything, I am just trying to learn from others. I hope Sir, that you will reciprocate the same by introducing your good-self to me.
So long. With profound regards.
Khuda Hafiz.
Re: Circumcision
Salam doc,
Lemme know if you have received email from me.
Re: Circumcision
Dear Truthfinder
AOA
No email as yet
Regards
Re: Circumcision
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Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) said: "Circumcision is Sunnah for men and an honour for women" - Musnad Ahmad, Al-Bayhaqi
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Who is this guy musnad ahmad... he has no idea what the hell circumcision is.
As far as i have read Prophet PBUH didnt say okay to it and didnt say no to it.
People circumcision removes all the outside parts of female if those parts are taken away she has no desires. i don't believe she can have orgasm. Isnt satisfiying your partner part of sex.
Congratulations we have another contradiction among our muslim scholars..
Re: Circumcision
I’m not sure if the hadeeth mentioned is Mutawaatir, Saheeh, or Ahsan as I also agree to your point about female circumcisions based on other fataawas but Musnad-e-Ahmed is the Book of Ahaadeeth written by Imam Ahmed Bin Hanbal:rehm: whose school of thought is followed in Saudi Arabia at large. Many muslims who look for hadeeth as a source of guidance are aware of this book. The references are found everywhere. Wallah-O-Alam!
Re: Circumcision
As far as i have read Prophet PBUH didnt say okay to it and didnt say no to it.
People circumcision removes all the outside parts of female if those parts are taken away she has no desires. i don't believe she can have orgasm. Isnt satisfiying your partner part of sex. Congratulations we have another contradiction among our muslim scholars..
this is called called excision not circumsision, and it is dangerous for women health.
i thought the following hadith meant that circumsision is a sunnah for the man and this is an honor for the women, because circumsised men are "cleaner" so there are less risks of getting infections from a circumsised husband...
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Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) said: "Circumcision is Sunnah for men and an honour for women" - Musnad Ahmad, Al-Bayhaqi
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Re: Circumcision (PLEASE READ)
Hello All,
This is my first post. I have browsed a lot of threads and came to know how/what pakistani or ex-pakistani all over the world, thinks about various issues/topics.
I congratulate the contributors on their active participation. I have been to other pak forums and this is the BEST the internet has to offer. I like the seriousness as well as the sense of humor shown by a number of members. smile, and cheers to all. Pls welcome me (in a good way :) )
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I am going to elaborate on the topic of MGM and FGM as this affetcs our childern and people who are BLIND followers of customs need to be informed. Pls. participate and specially the moms and moms to be.
MGM as it stands is Male Genital Mutilation medically called circumcision. Similarly FGM is Female Genital Mutilation. Indeed it is pure mutilation and nothing else! and has ABSOLUTELY nothing religious about it. Just pure cutom and the historical desire to dominate the sexuality of a person.
WHY MUTILATE?
According to Quran, Allah "perfected everything HE created" (32:7), and alterations of nature are defacements inspired by the devil (4:119)
Has HE made a mistake (Naooz-B-Allah) by creating something called foreskin? No. This thing has humdreds of meters of sensory nerves, Yes (go and search the structure over the net). Why? Was it again, Naooz-b-Allah, some mistake. It has extremely sensitive sensory nerves. So it was there for the purpose of sensation. Pure and simple. Ppl who do harm to it are not guilty of Aayat 4:119 ? Think about it
Further, the other purpose is to protect the glan by covering it as well as by discharging smegma to condition the surface of glan. The mechanism of creating the smegma is also involved when Allah created it. You want to nulify that?
HISTORICAL BACKGROUND
This was in practice since ages in some areas of the world or rather races and tribes. Sometimes as a rite of passage or sometimes for other reason. The main reason the practice gets popular in the Middleeastern area was the personal hygeine. With no water and dusty environment including plenty of sand in air. It becomes a matter of convrenience and hence the practice. We do not have water problem these days nor we travel on foot through desserts. Then why carry a sick custom that has danaging value! STOP it please.
THe other reason is since "Azzal" humans like to dominate humans and the best collective effort came out to be the dominance of personal liberty and sexuality.
When performed on a male or female it reduces the sensitivity of the instrument (:) ) and therefore the desire. Plain fact. Otherwise it is so sensitive with some ppl that rubbing with clothes while walking is sufficient to generate sexual sensation or desire. That was the main reason when it started in the 18th century in medivial England and other areas (they are done with the practice now). Yes, it was performed to curb Masterbation. Just like the "Jihalat" of the chastity belt fore females in those times. Further, it became a rite of initiation (Rite of Passage) for boys and girls marking them as ready for marraige. Who has a right to dictate the parametrs of a persons sexuality? Absolutely no one. It is a God gift bestowed on us. (Except, when one has tresspassed the acceptable norms of the society in the matter) But again tis' ain't a punishment way .
RELEGIOUS FACTOR
There has been no mention in Quran about it. Look how Allah has covered the purpose of creation, previous races, the history, the prophets, the science, universe, here and hearafter, essential of society, family laws, moral conduct, the Expectation from HIM, the do and donts, everyting important as determined by HIM. Even the coitus and the menstruation issues. But circumcision was not mentioned. Right or wrong? For God sake open your eyes and think with all the "aqal" HE has given us.
There is nothing religious about it. You see there is so much logic visible (more so when Allah give the "Tawfeeq" or insight to a person) in Quran as well as most of the Hadiths. All we have on the subject is the one on Fitrah and the one regarding a woman in Madinah who used to perfor FGM. "Aqal" simple do not accept it that RA PBUH who was ALL RAHMAT to mankind would advise/endorse this harmful practice. It was a custom even before Islam and there is lot of illogical stuff in Hadiths which were written after passing through by word of moth through five generations. If you put "Aqal" no one would disagree that the saying can get tainted reflecting the whims and desires of the people and society at that time. Even when you quote something it gets changed when reaching three or fourth person. Right? You agree. Then why there is no possibility that happened at that time (This is only for that stuff that seems to give the smell of addition).
Cutting of nails and hairs is perfectly okay as they are dead in feeling. But prescribing circumcision that consists of so sensitive nerves that Allah has created is not acceptable. Period.
When talking about the "Riwayat" regarding RA PBUH himself is concerned. One is born like that the oter is performed by his uncle on 7th days. Man when each one has fifty percent chance of being true then does not both has 50% chance of being untrue? For God sake think and put some fikr on issues that matters. Even so if PBUM is in that eventual state IS THIS WHAT IS LEFT TO FOLLOW? Hwen we ignore the mandatory duties prescribed by Allah (prayers, Fasting, Zakat, Hajj, etc) and more important taleem and examples shown by RA PBUM. No No No. Some give so much importance to this cruel practice and relates but ignore the above. Allah help those people, Insha-Allah
MEDICAL REASONS
There is no medical rbenefit(s) associated with circumcision. Except a condition called phimosis. Yes, in that case it can be prescribed because it becomes painful for the person. A person not having phimosis can maintain perfect hygeine by regular cleaning as we have plenty of water these days and the environment is not like it is in desserts.
Penile cancer. *uck off. It only May happen when hygeine is not mainted for extended period of time. And again it it not an automatic conclusion. It is future with conditional chances and one is taking rear-guard action!!! No it is your desire to dominate the future sextuality of the person by making him less sensitive. Therby reducing the pleasure of the person bestowed by Allah to him. Otherwise, cut off the breasts of girls at the onset of puberty because it may leads to breast cancer. Ah ha gotcha. Period. Again simple logic.
Most of you do not know that the American Medical industry is very explotative and Jews owing most of the share. They are killing two birds with one stone. First is the sadness/fear of Holocast on them and swearing of the members of their secret Free Mason society (secret congregation of Jews that meet every hundred years and review goals of previous and set new one for the coming hundred years) that every one in the world will be converted to a Jew. THis is circumcision is the first step in that direction (brit-Milah is mandatory in teir religion). Secondly foreskin is used in medicines and cosmetic industry. The hospitals do not burn them as they do with other post-operative human stuff. But sell them to the industry. The cosmetic industry uses it to determine reaction of their various products on human skin. They use foreskin for that even after they are cut away. Think how sensitive they may are. Subhaan-Allah, as Allah created it.
So jews encouraged circumcision in the mordern world on false filthy pretexts so that their mission and theoir industries both can benefits together. Later in 90s some of you know what their medical bodies are saying about the procedure. They say it is Genital Mutilation and not prescribed. Well the Europe never followed the circumcision because they do not have much influence from Jews. England who did have this as a curb for masturbation during 18th and 19th century and early 20th century stopped it completely. The NHS do not cover it anymore. (Wise people).
Last but not the least. Why double standards. When one cuts any part of the female genitalia it is Female Genital Mutilation. It should be stopped. People are cruel. This is what you say. But when it comes to penis. You follow, medical reason, false religious reasons and what not. Hipocracy and nothing else. For people citing medical reasons. Let me tell you the female genitalia begining from labia majore (outer lips) right upto the cervix is more dirty and disease prone with fungus and what not. Compared to penis. Thus people are twisting facts whenn they say that wives of circumcised husbands get less cervical cancer. Not every person has penile cancer in Eastern and Western Europe!
My observation is people who are more enlightened in sciences and related knowledge do not practice it except North Americans. Even the practice is reducing fast (check stats yourself for confirmation) Whereas, "Jahils" like we Muslims stil say, "Main na manoon".
So my sincere and deepest request to all of you is please read my article and if you accept it then not only stop the practice yourself (if in the position) but convince others as well. Because it deals with cruelty to our children. For Moms please join the movement. As I feel that you are the one who force the issue more than the father. PLEASE STOP THIS SICK PRACTICE oF MGM. Circumcision is not Circumcision but Male Genital Mutilation. If even one of you in convinced I would feel good that i propagated the right thing.
PS: Most of the people talk about FGM (female circumcision) as distant in some remote tribes in Africe may not know that nearby Eygpt has about 98% rate. Sick is'n't? (Have you heard about the Egyptian movie "Girls Secret", lately?) Another bigger news for you ladies. Who were not even aware about Female Circumcision before thay left Pakistan or this internet revolution brought so much research power to home that some Boharis in Pakistan and more so in India practice FGM. Further in Asia, Indonasia and Malaysia and muslims in Phillipines are also culprits of this practice.
People who on whatever pretext disagree with me please read my posting more than once until you see the light. I am not interested in replying to respected members who just will bring same few Hadith again and again for reference because they are blind followers without reasoning. Remember reasining can not and should not be done with Quran. Rest is open for you to debate.
Many thanks and Wallah-o-Alam.
Re: Circumcision
As far as i have read Prophet PBUH didnt say okay to it and didnt say no to it.
People circumcision removes all the outside parts of female if those parts are taken away she has no desires. i don't believe she can have orgasm. Isnt satisfiying your partner part of sex. Congratulations we have another contradiction among our muslim scholars..
I think he is referring to a different type of female circumcision where only the tip of the clitoris is cut. It is practiced widely in SE Asia, Yemen, and some parts of KSA.
Re: Circumcision
Female circumcision involves removal of the clitoris which will make sexual climax or pleasure impossible for the female.
That (quite horrible) practice isnt the topic of the thread so I'll not allow myself to go off on this form of female abuse.....its better left to its own thread.
Male circumcision, for US, was not a religious issue but rather one of hygeine. An uncircumcised penis is more prone to infection, odor and other possible troubles. It is also esthetically better (IMHO!!) to have it done.
Does Allah/God CARE about this????? I quite sincerely doubt that, at heaven's gate, this would be the issue. Is this a good person? Did this person live a GOOD life? Those things matter....the decision of the parents to circumsize or NOT...well I just cannot imagine ANY God that would punish with eternal hell for something like this. Allah/God has SOOOO many bigger issues to take up with us people.
Re: Circumcision
Every muslim male should get circumsised. Am not sure about muslim woman though...
Re: Circumcision
ok....female "circumcision" is the equivalent of castration (cutting "it" off).
No more need be said....yeah? If you have a need to opine abt this, methinks a new thread should be opened since THIS one is about male circumcision which is not a life-altering thing.
Re: Circumcision
Good point...
Re: Circumcision
There is a difference between female circumcision, where the hood of the clitoris is cut back (considered a sunnah but not widely practiced), and genital mutilation. Genital mutilation is removal of the clitoris.
Re: Circumcision
Its an "honor" for women? What the heck? I always thought it was discouraged and almost prohibited to do circumsition on females.
I'm not a scholar on circumsition, but doesn't it cause females to be unable to enjoy sex?
Please enlighten me as to how its "honorable" for women to do it. Its done in Africa, and from what I understand its passed off incorrectly as an Islamic practice.
Ridiculous. I'd so hate my parents if that was done to me.
Re: Circumcision (PLEASE READ)
This is my first post. I have browsed a lot of threads and came to know how/what pakistani or ex-pakistani all over the world, thinks about various issues/topics.
I congratulate the contributors on their active participation. I have been to other pak forums and this is the BEST the internet has to offer. I like the seriousness as well as the sense of humor shown by a number of members. smile, and cheers to all. Pls welcome me (in a good way :) )
-======================================================= I am going to elaborate on the topic of MGM and FGM as this affetcs our childern and people who are BLIND followers of customs need to be informed. Pls. participate and specially the moms and moms to be.
MGM as it stands is Male Genital Mutilation medically called circumcision. Similarly FGM is Female Genital Mutilation. Indeed it is pure mutilation and nothing else! and has ABSOLUTELY nothing religious about it. Just pure cutom and the historical desire to dominate the sexuality of a person.
WHY MUTILATE?
Certainly puts it into a different perspective, especially if it is not Farz. we ignore the Faraiz but want to be counted amoung the followers of traditions that are easy, simply human nature....
Re: Circumcision
CW, Very unfortunate to think like that. Have you read my posting of Dec 8th. It was written for people like you. Pls read it carefully as it gives points to seriously ponder.
Re: Circumcision
I'm not a scholar on circumsition, but doesn't it cause females to be unable to enjoy sex?
Please enlighten me as to how its "honorable" for women to do it. Its done in Africa, and from what I understand its passed off incorrectly as an Islamic practice.
Ridiculous. I'd so hate my parents if that was done to me.
PCG, there is nothing honorable in it except the person gives away her pleasure for NO CAUSE.
If fully agree with you on FGM but what about MGM? would you care to agree or disagree after reading my posting (Dec 8th). If agree then help society by educating the crime against our childern.