sorry but couldn’t help laughing 
Turkey is being asked to almost kill its culture, religion to join NATO and even after so much bending they are VERY far from being part of it.
Re: CIA warns I.S.I
Then what NATO will do with India?It's the major super power in the region.So both India and Pakistan will join NATO and that's it.There wont be any Kashmir thread and no India ,Pak biase,heated arguements etc on Gupshup,and many guppies number of posts will get limited :D
So people dream it......
NATO (North Arlantic Traeaty Organization),let them limit themselves in Europe and let's continue our fights and border to border love sagas. :)
...to join NATO and even after so much bending they are VERY far from being part of it.
Ehtasab bhai, I was not expecting that you will not be ale to differentiate between NATO membership and EU membership.
Turkey has been a long time member of NATO
Turkey is now trying to join EU and going through confirmation etc.
Re: CIA warns I.S.I
^ sorry I mixed them up :D
.... if a need arises,my prime point,is that NATO do not have to rely on Pakistan.
NATO (or the Western Powers) need Pakistan in both war and peace.
War time - Pakistan provides the shortest and cheapest supply route. No matter what we say about ISI, but Pakistan Army is the "historic" ally of the West and it continues to be such as we speak. And Pak army will make sure they continue providing good logistics for NATO and it has done so amicably in the past.
Peace time - Not many people know why NATO is there in Afghanistan. The answer is to secure Afghanistan for a one of the shortest pipelines from the Turkmenistan. Then again Pakistan provides the shortest route for such pipeline out to the Arabian Sea ports.
Gesto bro! hope you understand this. Thank you.
^ Brother.This is your view but the reality is too far from this.Kindly cite one occassion Pak army had had one oppurtunity of being `a historic western ally'.It has not even played any vital role in regional conflicts(apart from wars with India),and the major developments in the area were Fight against Soviet occupation of Afghanistan and Psh to topple Taliban from power.In both these Mujahideens had taken part and not Pak army.Apart from fights with India,and serving some U.N missions ,Pak army can not claims any credit to being in the international headlines.So ofcourse westen world does not consider Pak army as their ally.
Ofcourse NATO will have some `other interests' in the region and that's a out of discussion in this thread.
Thanks :)
CIA chief conveyed concerns over ISI -DAWN - Top Stories; August 01, 2008
WASHINGTON, July 31: CIA chief Michael V. Hayden had an exclusive meeting with Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani during his visit to Washington this week, presenting him with a “charge-sheet” on Pakistani intelligence agencies’ alleged involvement in jihadi activities.
Diplomatic and US sources told Dawn the allegations included in the “charge-sheet” were almost identical to what the New York Times had reported on Wednesday.
“Some information in the CIA charge-sheet were so damning that the Pakistanis could not deny them,” said a senior official familiar with the talks.
The CIA chief — who also met the prime minister at a dinner on Monday — is believed to have told Mr Gilani that Pakistan will have to do something about this alleged involvement of ISI officials with the militants.
He also told the PM that even a change of government in Washington would not help Pakistan as whoever occupied the White House in January would also want Islamabad to “rein in the ISI”, said the official.
In an interview to Washington Times, published on Thursday, Mr Gilani confirmed the New York Times report that CIA deputy director Stephen R. Kappes and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Adm. Michael G. Mullen visited Islamabad in mid-July with reports of some ISI officials’ alleged links with the militants.
Asked whether he was confident that the ISI contained no pockets of Taliban sympathy, Mr Gilani said: “I am pretty sure about it.” But, he added: “We will still have to look into (the accusations). … It will be resolved.”
The NYT reported on Wednesday that Mr Kappes had travelled secretly to Islamabad earlier this month to confront Pakistani officials with new information about alleged ties between the ISI and militants operating in Fata.
The CIA emissary presented evidence showing that members of the spy service had deepened their ties with some militant groups that were responsible for a surge of violence in Afghanistan.
Diplomatic sources noted that by leaking this information to the NYT while the Pakistani prime minister was still in Washington, the US administration tried to convince the Pakistanis that they were really upset with Pakistan over this issue.
They also noted that while previous leaks on this issue quoted unnamed sources, this report directly quoted senior CIA officials.
According to diplomatic sources, the United Stats is trying to work out an arrangement with Pakistan for curtailing ISI’s power.
Under this new arrangement, the ISI wing which deals with internal security may be transferred to the interior ministry and the agency may also be asked to reduce its role in the war on terror.
“While the ISI may still have some role in both internal security and the war on terror, it will be not be as influential as it is today”, said an official familiar with the talks. “At least this is what the Americans and Pakistanis hope to achieve.”
That the ISI would figure prominently in the US-Pakistan talks was known to Pakistani media representatives in Washington even before the prime minister came here.
They had learned that while joint statements and press releases would focus on economic cooperation between the two countries; this will not be the focus of the talks.
The Americans, they said, wanted to talk about the ISI because they believed that at least some people within the agency had links to the Taliban and Al Qaeda.
Later, senior Pakistani officials who came with the prime minister also confirmed this, saying that they had come prepared for “tough talks” on this issue.
Yet, the media were not prepared for an on-the-record confirmation. So they were surprised when Defence Minister Ahmad Mukhtar told a private television channel that the US president, during a meeting with a Pakistani delegation, expressed concerns over ISI’s role. He quoted President Bush as complaining that the intelligence shared with Pakistan got leaked much before any action was taken.
The defence minister’s decision to go public with this information apparently shows the government’s desire to let the people in Pakistan know how much international pressure it faces on this issue.
A day before the prime minister arrived, the Cabinet Division issued a formal notification in Islamabad, placing the ISI and the Intelligence Bureau under the interior ministry.
The US media linked this move to the visit but when it was withdrawn, the media reported that the PPP government “buckled in” under the military’s pressure.
Pakistani officials travelling with the prime minister, however, tried to dispel the impression that the Pakistani government was working on some formal or informal arrangement with the US for curtailing ISI’s powers.
They pointed out that during his talks at the White House and later with senior State Department and Pentagon officials as well as with US lawmakers, Prime Minister Gilani urged them to look at the Afghan and India factors as well.
On Wednesday, Rehman Malik, the PM’s Adviser on Interior, publicly blamed the two neighbouring countries for stirring troubles in Fata and Balochistan.
Pakistan officials say that by highlighting India and Afghanistan’s alleged involvement in the troubles, the government is trying to fend off the US attack on the ISI.
Re: CIA warns I.S.I
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/01/world/asia/01pstan.html?em
By MARK MAZZETTI and ERIC SCHMITT
Published: August 1, 2008
WASHINGTON — American intelligence agencies have concluded that members of Pakistan’s powerful spy service helped plan the deadly July 7 bombing of India’s embassy in Kabul, Afghanistan, according to United States government officials.
The conclusion was based on intercepted communications between Pakistani intelligence officers and militants who carried out the attack, the officials said, providing the clearest evidence to date that Pakistani intelligence officers are actively undermining American efforts to combat militants in the region.
The American officials also said there was new information showing that members of the Pakistani intelligence service were increasingly providing militants with details about the American campaign against them, in some cases allowing militants to avoid American missile strikes in Pakistan’s tribal areas.
Concerns about the role played by Pakistani intelligence not only has strained relations between the United States and Pakistan, a longtime ally, but also has fanned tensions between Pakistan and its archrival, India. Within days of the bombings, Indian officials accused the Directorate of Inter-Services Intelligence, or ISI, of helping to orchestrate the attack in Kabul, which killed 54, including an Indian defense attaché.
This week, Pakistani troops clashed with Indian forces in the contested region of Kashmir, threatening to fray an uneasy cease-fire that has held since November 2003.
The New York Times reported this week that a top Central Intelligence Agency official traveled to Pakistan this month to confront senior Pakistani officials with information about support provided by members of the ISI to militant groups. It had not been known that American intelligence agencies concluded that elements of Pakistani intelligence provided direct support for the attack in Kabul.
American officials said that the communications were intercepted before the July 7 bombing, and that the C.I.A. emissary, Stephen R. Kappes, the agency’s deputy director, had been ordered to Islamabad, Pakistan’s capital, even before the attack. The intercepts were not detailed enough to warn of any specific attack.
The government officials were guarded in describing the new evidence and would not say specifically what kind of assistance the ISI officers provided to the militants. They said that the ISI officers had not been renegades, indicating that their actions might have been authorized by superiors.
“It confirmed some suspicions that I think were widely held,” one State Department official with knowledge of Afghanistan issues said of the intercepted communications. “It was sort of this ‘aha’ moment. There was a sense that there was finally direct proof.”
The information linking the ISI to the bombing of the Indian Embassy was described in interviews by several American officials with knowledge of the intelligence. Some of the officials expressed anger that elements of Pakistan’s government seemed to be directly aiding violence in Afghanistan that had included attacks on American troops.
Some American officials have begun to suggest that Pakistan is no longer a fully reliable American partner and to advocate some unilateral American action against militants based in the tribal areas.
The ISI has long maintained ties to militant groups in the tribal areas, in part to court allies it can use to contain Afghanistan’s power. In recent years, Pakistan’s government has also been concerned about India’s growing influence inside Afghanistan, including New Delhi’s close ties to the government of Hamid Karzai, the Afghan president.
American officials say they believe that the embassy attack was probably carried out by members of a network led by Maulavi Jalaluddin Haqqani, whose alliance with Al Qaeda and its affiliates has allowed the terrorist network to rebuild in the tribal areas.
American and Pakistani officials have now acknowledged that President Bush on Monday confronted Pakistan’s prime minister, Yousaf Raza Gilani, about the divided loyalties of the ISI.
Pakistan’s defense minister, Chaudhry Ahmed Mukhtar, told a Pakistani television network on Wednesday that Mr. Bush asked senior Pakistani officials this week, “ ‘Who is in control of ISI?’ ” and asked about leaked information that tipped militants to surveillance efforts by Western intelligence services.
Pakistan’s new civilian government is wrestling with these very issues, and there is concern in Washington that the civilian leaders will be unable to end a longstanding relationship between members of the ISI and militants associated with Al Qaeda.
Spokesmen for the White House and the C.I.A. declined to comment for this article. Pakistan’s ambassador to the United States, Husain Haqqani, did not return a call seeking comment.
Further underscoring the tension between Pakistan and its Western allies, Britain’s senior military officer said in Washington on Thursday that an American and British program to help train Pakistan’s Frontier Corps in the tribal areas had been delayed while Pakistan’s military and civilian officials sorted out details about the program’s goals.
Britain and the United States had each offered to send about two dozen military trainers to Pakistan later this summer to train Pakistani Army officers who in turn would instruct the Frontier Corps paramilitary forces.
But the British officer, Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup, said the program had been temporarily delayed. “We don’t yet have a firm start date,” he told a small group of reporters. “We’re ready to go.”
The bombing of the Indian Embassy helped to set off a new deterioration in relations between India and Pakistan.
This week, Indian and Pakistani soldiers fired at each other across the Kashmir frontier for more than 12 hours overnight Monday, in what the Indian Army called the most serious violation of a five-year-old cease-fire agreement. The nightlong battle came after one Indian soldier and four Pakistanis were killed along the border between sections of Kashmir that are controlled by India and by Pakistan.
Indian officials say they are equally worried about what is happening on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border because they say the insurgents who are facing off with India in Kashmir and those who target Afghanistan are related and can keep both borders burning at the same time.
India and Afghanistan share close political, cultural and economic ties, and India maintains an active intelligence network in Afghanistan, all of which has drawn suspicion from Pakistani officials.
When asked Thursday about whether the ISI and Pakistani military remained loyal to the country’s civilian government, Adm. Mike Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, sidestepped the question. “That’s probably something the government of Pakistan ought to speak to,” Admiral Mullen told reporters at the Pentagon.
Jalaluddin Haqqani, the militia commander, battled Soviet troops during the 1980s and has had a long and complicated relationship with the C.I.A. He was among a group of fighters who received arms and millions of dollars from the C.I.A. during that period, but his allegiance with Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda during the following decade led the United States to sever the relationship.
Mr. Haqqani and his sons now run a network that Western intelligence services say they believe is responsible for a campaign of violence throughout Afghanistan, including the Indian Embassy bombing and an attack on the Serena Hotel in Kabul earlier this year.
David Rohde contributed reporting from New York, and Somini Sengupta from New Delhi.
Re: CIA warns I.S.I
(The conclusion was based on intercepted communications between Pakistani intelligence officers and militants who carried out the attack, the officials said, providing the clearest evidence to date that Pakistani intelligence officers are actively undermining American efforts to combat militants in the region)
This says all.Where are NATO mahaaans on GS?
Now somebody pls do not rush in and tell NY TIMES is anti-Pak.This is the same newspaper that had supported carnages in Bangladesh,then East-pakistan.
(The conclusion was based on intercepted communications between Pakistani intelligence officers and militants who carried out the attack, the officials said, providing the clearest evidence to date that Pakistani intelligence officers are actively undermining American efforts to combat militants in the region)
This says all.Where are NATO mahaaans on GS?
Now somebody pls do not rush in and tell NY TIMES is anti-Pak.This is the same newspaper that had supported carnages in Bangladesh,then East-pakistan.
[QUOTE]
American officials said that the ** communications were intercepted before the July 7 bombing, ** and that the C.I.A. emissary, Stephen R. Kappes, the agency’s deputy director, had been ordered to Islamabad, Pakistan’s capital, even before the attack. The intercepts were not detailed enough to warn of any specific attack.
[/QUOTE]
You are desperate Gesto! Aren't you?
One should ask NYT a simple question! You intercept a communication to do what? Listen to it and act on it!
You do not intercept a communication just to listen to some Pashto song.
But you the Gesto conveniently ignored that important sentence and just continued harping on "bad Pakistan" good india bad pakistan good india bollywood tunes. Well bro! you enjoy the tune so have at it.
However do not bring bad name to intelligent Indians in this hour of anti-Pakistan drivels.
Re: CIA warns I.S.I
^Why should I be desperate,when the evidence is laid before the whole world to see?I think you only are the desperate one to see how the truth has come out.
Pls show us where the intercepted details have been intimated to India,for Indian Intelligence to act,co-ordinate with KHAD .
Re: CIA warns I.S.I
yes they intercepted the communication and didnt act at all to prevent it:) or its two mickey mouse speaking to eachother just to be intercepted and shown to the world. well done cIA and RAW
Re: CIA warns I.S.I
I kinda find it funny that people here are defending ISI shenanigans when everybody knows that agency is out of control & if there is another terror attack in US the Americans will bombed us back to stone ages.
Because these people are deluded with ISI that it is the main source for uniting Pakistan otherwise it would disintegrate. What a bunch of idiots.
Re: CIA warns I.S.I
I.S.I has got just a regional presence.
Re: CIA warns I.S.I
I.S.I is an anti- tool and without that creed ,it's existence is purely limited.
yes they intercepted the communication and didnt act at all to prevent it:) or its two mickey mouse speaking to eachother just to be intercepted and shown to the world. well done cIA and RAW
I was wondering the same.
Anyway, it is becoming clearer that there are either rogue elements in the ISI who are in constant touch with ALQ/TAL or it is double-game policy from high-up to the bottom.
Re: CIA warns I.S.I
I was wartching a TV program late last night on Fox (don’t ask me why ) where one US expert was saying that Indians were warned by CIA and they installed some sort of concrete block that prevented the bomber from ramming his vehicle into the building. That is why most of the dead were civilians waiting in line for visas outside the embassy.
Now I’m doubtful that CIA can prove so and so from ISI ordered the attack or anything like that. But if someone from ISI was stupid enough to talk about it on easily interceptable radio then he must be shot for putting Pakistan in an embarassing situation. Attacking an embassy is an act of war and any documentary proofs can be used to employ sanctions when we are no longer needed by Americans.
Again, all this is only “if” ISI was involved.
Re: CIA warns I.S.I
^ you seem less concerned that ISI is involved in the bombing and more worried that they were caught!!!
Between MR.A.Q.Khan and the rowdy ISI, they have ensure Pakistan being in the rogue barrel for a long time.
Unless people like you start feeling angry about criminal acts being committed by institutions of govt, how will anything change?
Re: CIA warns I.S.I
^^
Spy games have been going on for a long time. In Sri Lanka our ambassador narrowly escaped death in a suicide blast done by pro-India LTTE members. This was after Sri Lanka announced arms deals with Pakistan.
Now I do not support terror attacks. The Kabul blast was ghastly and lots of innocents died. However, if ISI had some involvement, it better have been approved higher up.
We cannot have loose cannons at a time when Pakistan is under siege. This is also why I supported ISI coming under Interior ministry. Anything that makes ISI accountable to elected Pakistani government is good.