Please look up the context of Albrights' comments, and then note that she apogized for leaving the impression that it was somehow acceptable to have kids lives harmed. Her point was that the sanctions were tough, but a better alternative FOR the CHILDREN than war.
Now back to those "Illegal" sanctions.....
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Oh yeah, I forgot the most famous of all excuses" it was taken out of context". Thank you for reminding that, everything is ok now, however, there is one small fact that still bothers me ...children did die becasue of those sanctions not to mention US destroying all the water and sewage systems of Iraq back in 1991. That was humane, was'nt it. Let me see how MV defends that.
Kaleem:
I've addressed Halfbright's comments many times before and OhioGuy's response above pretty much is in accord with my prior statements.
But really, have you found all those UN Resolutions yet on ending sanctions that the US vetoed? Or is that statement pretty much like your analysis that the US Civil War was fought over taxation without representation and to depose the English monarchy control over the US?
"The supposed "fact" becomes the articulated reason for hating/bashing America. But when you bring to their attention that the articulated "fact" is a bunch of cr*p, they don't step back to consider that since their reasons for hating/bashing America are totally false"
A while ago, you said "Crappy and incompetent intelligence is a major issue". Some would consider your comment to be highly unpatriotic and a sign that you "hate" America. How would you like to defend yourself now?
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*Originally posted by myvoice: *
Kaleem:
I've addressed Halfbright's comments many times before and OhioGuy's response above pretty much is in accord with my prior statements.
But really, have you found all those UN Resolutions yet on ending sanctions that the US vetoed? Or is that statement pretty much like your analysis that the US Civil War was fought over taxation without representation and to depose the English monarchy control over the US?
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let me show how its done, I made a mistake. Read it again, I said I made a mistake regarding the wars. Now, come on admit it, premise for Iraq war was/is wrong. Iraq never presented any threat to US. Come on, you can do it. Do not disappoint me now.
"Crappy and incompetent intelligence is a major issue"
Faisal,
I don't think that there is any disagreement that the intelligence was deeply flawed. There is nothing un-American here. It is indeed a fact. But I can show you a hundred web sites that present "Internet Facts". these sites read as if they know all the answers, but if you go to a more rigourous analysis it ends up looking wierder than homeopathy and astrology combined. Worse still, the "Internet facts" feed on themselves, become movies, urban legands, myths that fuel anger. This indeed happens all the time. In my observations, young and politically idealistic people swallow a lot of propaganda hook line and sinker.
My Senior High School paper (now I will date myself) for a course on "Propaganda" took a text of Nixon's seven point Peace Plan, and an audio tape I recorded from Radio Hanoi over a short wave radio. To compare the two sources you would barely know they were talking about the same peace plan. Propaganda is not new, it is very old. The internet makes it more available.
I understand Myvoices' frustration at constantly having to defend the indefensable. And posting a link only helps a little. Once someone is convinced that a particular urban legend is true, they seldom go back and critically look at thier sources. This is the "crap' that Myvoice is complaining about. I share his frustration.
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*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
I don't think that there is any disagreement that the intelligence was deeply flawed. There is nothing un-American here. It is indeed a fact.
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You think of it as a "fact". Someone else can think of it as "opinion" and consequently you as un-patriotic hate-mongerer who is spouting filth against America while your sons and daughters are in the harm's way.
You see the point? Disagreeing with US government, its methodology or policies is not same as "hating America". And "facts" depend on a person's view point. :)
No Faisal, MyVoices point is that there is someone here who believes that the US has vetoed UN resolutions on sanctions, and that the sanctions are "illegal". Those are argueable facts, not points of view. When cornered, we start quoting Madeline the Idiot. (And frankly she was one of the worst Sec of States in recent history, I would not defend her other than to set the record straight so that her comments cannot be futher used out of context to discredit the country.)
That is a minor point and can easily be addressed one way or the other. I am commenting on the usual "they hate America" tirades that you and your friend keep referring to. Welcome, you just joined the club, by criticizing American intelligence.
Go back and carefully research many of my posts. Criticism of America and it's policies is an inalienable right. No problem there. I attended Kent State, I was marching around and protesting long before most of these kids were born!
The hate of America that I am now objecting to is that which is perpetuated by many here based on things that are clearly false, taken out of context, cynically manipulated, or propaganda. ergo "crap"
Ohioguy, seriously dude. CIA is a bunch of incompetent buffoons, and they did mess things up there, but now you are pushing it. This is really uncalled for. :nono3:
ps. You are talking about CIA’s pre-war intelligence, right?
I think the CIA was operating on inertia. They dragged tons of weapons from every corner of Iraq. Everytime they thought they got it all, some defector would show up and the inspectors would go back and find more. The CIA was guilty of thinking that Saddam could once again outsmart us, and that he had gotten more sophiticated. The CIA was guilty of linear thinking, and over-estimating the wiles of Saddam. They are also guilty of falling hook line and sinker for some of the stories dreamed up by exiles who wanted Saddam gone. And, for the record, my great uncle was one of the original staffers on the staff of the CIA for nearly 20 years. They are hardly buffoons, more like they outsmarted themselves, and they defaulted to the simplest answer, that is that Saddam has fooled us before, ergo he is probably fooling us now.
While there is a "reason" for their failure, they still screwed up. They are paid to be right...
OG.. No offence to your great uncle, but there are far too many mistakes in too short a time. Or maybe its just the recent focus on CIA that is unravelling the pretty picture of smark blokes protecting America.
Things that were considered 'facts' by you and your friends BEFORE the war, are now shown to be merely 'conjecture'. Whats to say that other things you consider as 'facts' right now just because they are from the best intelligence agency in the world, would not prove to be equally useless if someone to cross-check in the future.
There were people, including many on this forum, who were saying BEFORE the war that Saddam may not have any WMD's left and that it is unlikely he was in cohorts with OBL to plan 9/11, and people like you pooh-poo'd such suggestions saying these people live in la-la-land and Saddam has stockpiled such WMD's cz there is no evidence of them being destroyed ("disarm, disarm, disarm"). Turned out they were spot on, after all. So, lets not be too smug about what are "facts", especially when the "facts" are coming out of US intelligence agencies.
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things that are clearly false, taken out of context, cynically manipulated, or propaganda. ergo "crap
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^^ And this hate mongering, anti-islam, anti-muslims, and anti-international students specially if they are from muslim countries is going to tell us how to look at the facts. He has an axe to grind, he has to defend his great uncle, afterall what is family for. Dude, wakeup, all of the crap that you spew is just that crap.
You did not answer my question regarding the "humane" bombing by us of water and sewage lines of baghdad in 1991. You think that contributed to diseases and illness? Then heartless cowards like you supported sanctions on those poor souls,becasue saddam had fallen out of favor with US. Shame on you.
Faisal:
It is extremely important to distinguish between opinion and fact. People are even entitled to express hate mongering American bashing opinions. My problem is when people just make up supposed "facts" and try to sell them to others as "facts" in order to justify their opinions and to perhaps persuade others to share in their opinions.
Opinion is neither right nor wrong. It is simply opinion.
The statement that the US vetoed every UN Security Council resolution attempting to lift Iraqi sanctions is a purported statement of fact not opinion. People might believe such cr*p and based upon this supposed fact formulate a hate America opinion.
Similarly, the statement that the UN sanctions against Iraq were "illegal" is at the very least a mixed statement of law and fact. Someone can express an opinion that they were "immoral" and we can have a nice debate about differing opinions. We can also debate whether they were "worth it." There is no factual or legal case to be made that they were illegal. The sanctions were imposed by UN Member states against another UN Member state in conformity with the UN Charter that all UN Member states agree is to govern their relationships. And as pointed out by OhioGuy, the sanctions were advocated by such conservative America-loving stalwarts as Chomsky and his crowd.
myvoice, I am not arguing about sanctions nor about UN resoltions. These are facts and anyone can check out and verify. If someone made a mistake in the statement they can figure out a suitable response. I didn't make those statements so I am not about to defend those :)
However, you said
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*Originally posted by myvoice: *
It is extremely important to distinguish between opinion and fact.
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Yup. However, you must also appreciate that facts can quickly become opinions and vice versa. As you have seen, pre-war 'facts' about Iraq, are now shown as mere 'opinions' of the analysts proudly drummed up by the politicians at that time.
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The sanctions were imposed by UN Member states against another UN Member state in conformity with the UN Charter that all UN Member states agree is to govern their relationships
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Does this only applies to Muslim countries? Can we enforce resolutions against israel for a change? What do you say MV?
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. And as pointed out by OhioGuy, the sanctions were advocated by such conservative America-loving stalwarts as Chomsky and his crowd.
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Who cares about what Chomsky had to say, can you think with your own brain and come to the conclusion that taking inncocent lives is wrong and equates murders.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
However, you said Yup. However, you must also appreciate that facts can quickly become opinions and vice versa. As you have seen, pre-war 'facts' about Iraq, are now shown as mere 'opinions' of the analysts proudly drummed up by the politicians at that time.
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That's exactly right. And that's why I think the issue of crappy intelligence is important and the reasons for it rectified. It is also why I have volunteered to be a part of the GupShup Truth Team scouring the posts of my guppy brothers and sisters for incidents of deliberate falsehoods and/or honest mistakes. Heaven forbid that some member or visiting reader of posts in WAs would strap a backpack full of dynamite to himself/herself and blow up some innocent Americans in a pizza parlor in Peoria because he/she falsely believed the US vetoed all the UN Resolutions seeking an end to Iraq sanctions.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Kaleem: *
Does this only applies to Muslim countries? Can we enforce resolutions against israel for a change? What do you say MV?
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All you've got to do Kaleem is get the UN Member states to authorize action/sanctions against Israel in conformity with the requirements of the UN Charter and I'll support it.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Kaleem: *
Who cares about what Chomsky had to say, can you think with your own brain and come to the conclusion that taking inncocent lives is wrong and equates murders.
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I thought you were busy researching the UN website to find some Resolutions we vetoed on ending Iraqi sanctions. No??? Well.....anyway, I'm glad you're shifting gears and trying to make an argument based upon morality rather than legality.
I thought you were busy researching the UN website to find some Resolutions we vetoed on ending Iraqi sanctions. No??? Well.....anyway, I'm glad you're shifting gears and trying to make an argument based upon morality rather than legality.
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Funny how now you're all concerned about the UN and its charter. Did you care about the UN when you declared war on Iraq? No, so I fail to see why it would matter now.
Fact of the matter is the US does what it does simply because it can, and that is much worse than any type of transgression and more corrupt than what a hundred Saddams could ever come up with.