I myself am a Christian from America, but I observed how so many Christians have lost sight to the true meaning of celebration of Christmas. A couple of days ago I was at the mall and ran into a friend of mine and she said to me “Well, are you ready for Christmas?”, so I replied to her with “Yes I am ready to celebrate to remembrance of Jesus Christ birthday”. Well I have to tell you, my friend just looked at me with an odd look and said again to me “I was referring to are you done with your Christmas shopping”. That statement she made to me, really pissed me off. Here’s my point…What in the he-- does buying gifts for others have any significance to birth of Jesus Christ. Furthermore, if we do choose to buy gifts or do good deeds for others, why should it only be limited to one time in a year… why not show love and good deeds for others all during the year. And here’s another statement that really got me fumed up again…After Christmas, the next day I returned to work and I asked a co-worker of mine, I said to her “How was Christmas with your family”… and this was her response, she said "My Christmas was wonderful, I got a new purse, necklace, and so on… Again I say…what the he-- does that have to do with observance of Jesus Christ… I have really gotten frustrated with lots of Christians who only associated Christmas with gifts and not remembering the true sentimental connection. If you all are wondering, yes, I do participate in gift exchanging with family members and friends, but I also observe the true meaning. One more thing I am also clueless in, and this has gone on for centuries, I never knew why, but here goes.. What does Santa Clause have to do with Christmas? What purpose does Santa serve. Have you ever unscrambled the word Santa? If not, do so, and this is what you find—Satan. Now that’s a thought, Santa unscrambled as Satan. Well just curious if I am the only Christian here who has noticed this hypocrisy.
I’ve noticed it to Kim (sis). A co-worker of mine asked me what was I buying my two boys for Christmas and I told her a $5.00 toy and she replied as “Thats ALL?!?!?!?, WHY?!?!?!?” I said “all they will do is tear it up”. I used to buy expensive gifts for my son and within a couple of weeks, it would be destroyed. I told her they are getting 1 toy and it would cost no more than $5. Well I spend $30 so sue me.
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My co-worker told me she was spending $140.00 on her daughter alone and she also said I should buy my kids more than that. I told her there is more to Christmas than spending money on gifts. I asked her “How would you like it on your birthday if the whole world celebrated and swapped gifts and didn’t buy you (the birthday person) a single gift or do a good deed?” She looked pi$$ed. Oh well, she’ll get over it.
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btw… Where is my gift Kim, I’m still waiting?
Kimmy, well I'm sure you're not the only Christian to notice this hypocracy, but it just seems that no one cares about the "true meaning of Christmas" as you said it (btw - sounds like a cliche). But also, it seems as if its not only associated with a Christian tradition as it is a North American one in the least. My Jewish neighbors don't even put up hanauka candles in the window but always have a "Satan" Doll and a Christmas tree. But believe you me I do understand your frustation with what you believe not being practiced.
Christmas looks to me more of an extragavant marketing ploy which is really working well. I was reading that alot of specialty shops do most of their business during this 'holiday' time. There is this one candy manufacturer (Bob's candies) in Alabama which only makes candy canes year long for Christmas time and they sell one billion dollars worth of those little candies...WOW, thats alot of sugar!!!
k
Christmas here in the US is more about MONEY-the root of all EVIL. Before Christmas sales and after Christmas sales and people returning gifts for U KNOW - MONEY!
Well said k2pk and GHC. I agree.
[quote]
Originally posted by kimmy:
so I replied to her with "Yes I am ready to celebrate to remembrance of Jesus Christ birthday".
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all
Dear Kimmy, fully agree with your findings on current Christian trends and hope to hear from you as to why you believe Christ was born on 25th of December, which for love of our Creator, I cannot find written anywhere ?
k2pk.........We Christians know that this was not actually Jesus' birthday...his birthday was never revealed in the Bible. We have picked a day to show remembrance, but it is not actual day, quite sure....no one really knows exact day.
ah...okay, (I believe that was Ibrahim's point), but a good answer i'd say, I was also always confused about that...ALSO, when they changed the calendar in the 6th century, they had it off by 6 years, so in fact according to TIME, it is actually 2007 right now in that respect...
Hello!
I raised a question on another forum where there are substantially more active contributors from the Christian faith. My question was simply what the relevance of 25 December was.
Out of about 25 responses, only one confirmed that it was not Jesus (alaihe salam's) birthday. The rest all paid more importance to the commercial aspects (presents, parties, movies, etc.).
For those in doubt about the date, go to Encyclopedia Britanica. 25 December was a pagan festival and was deliberately coincided with Christianity. It was not a fluke or result of change of callendar.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
Ibrahim says: Hi Kimmy! hence the very foundation for the celebration **is make believe (imagination) and not based on TRUTH. **
That being the case it should be all right to throw in the santa’s, gifts, turkeys and the merry making and what knots,
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Just kidding
Did you know what the Bible says with regards to this celebrations with a tree in the midst?
Read!
Isaiah 66:
-
For, behold, ** the Lord will come with fire,** and with his chariots like a whirlwind, ** to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.**
-
For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many.
17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind ** one tree in the midst,** eating swine’s flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord.
18 "And I, ** because of their actions and their imaginations, ** am about to come and gather all nations and tongues, and they will come and see my glory.
Maybe that was not too clear let me refer you to the ** Holman Bible Dictionary,** (the statement is well worded to avoid any discrimination as it is a Christian BIBLE dictionary) so will quote here as written:
Christmas:-
Of the major Christian Festivals, ** Christmas is the most recent origin. ** The name a contraction of the term “Christ mass”, did not come into use until the middle ages. ** In the early centuries, Christians were much more likely to celebrate the day of a persons death than the persons birthday.** Very early in its history the church had an annual observance of the ** death of Christ and also honored many of the early martyrs on the day of their death.** Before the fourth century, churches in the east - Egypt, Asia Minor, and Antioch - observed Epiphany, the manifestation of God to the world, celebrating Christ’s baptism, His birth, and the visit of the Magi.
** In the early part of the fourth century, Christians in Rome began to celebrate the birth of Christ. ** The practice spread widely and rapidly, so that most parts of the Christian world observed the new festival by the end of the century. In the fourth century, the controversy over the nature of Christ, whether he was truly God or a created being , led to an increased emphasis on the doctrine of the incarnation, the affirmation that the Word was made flesh" ( John 1:14) ** It is likely that the urgency to proclaim the incarnation was an important factor in the spread of the celebration of Christmas.**
No evidence remains about the exact date of the birth of Christ. The December 25 date ** was chosen as much for practical reasons as for theological ones. ** Throughout the Roman Empire, ** various festivals were held in conjunction with the winter solstice.** In Rome,** the feast of the Unconquerable Sun celebrated the beginning of the return of the sun.** When Christianity became the religion of the empire, the church either ** had to suppress the festivals or transform them .** The winter solstice seemed an appropriate time to celebrate Christ’s birth. ** Thus the festival of the Sun became the festival of the Son, the light of the world. **
Fred A.Grissom.
Look who is claiming, it is their festival which confirms above fact that it was a SUN festival ?
www.clubs.yahoo.com - marathipeople - message #9272
the custom of celebrating ** “dakshiNaayan” or sun’s reaching the southernmost point started in ancient india ** and was carried to egypt by hindu navigators and travellers. indian astronomy was well developed since the early ages. even as per the present-day solar calendar, night of 23 december is the longest with the sun being at the southernmost point with resprect to the earth. this celebration was called “dakshin maas”. the custom was carried into egypt and was taken from there to rome and greece, and got included in their social festivals. since it was all about celebrating “nature’s elements and gods”, the later christian missions termed such events as “pagan”. however, such pagan approaches were part of the early age spirituality in all civilized and stable societies. i would not want to delve into this aspect here (topic for further debate at a later date, may be!).
** ancient christianity conveniently adopted and adapted this so-called “pagan” custom into a celebration of the birth of jesus, and had people continue the custom under the christian guise ** . I am not against any religion neither am i trying to denigrate any system of faith. the point i am trying to make here is that the celebration (which greeks called ** x’mas, meaning tenth month celebration ** - remember, that january and february were added to the western solar calendar much later and earlier they only had ten months, sept, oct, nov, dec meaning seventh, eighth, ninth and tenth months).
x'mas is an original indian festival. the original name, "dakshin maas" somehow got converted to christmas especially after the onslaught of christianity. in any case, do not forget that all known religions originated in asia and not one came from the "western world".
why can we not proudly celebrate dakshin maas, no matter what it is called today ? ** it has Indian social and spiritual origin - a sun festival ! **
Ibrahim says: greetings of Peace to one and all
Hi guys, just for those who would like to know more about this strange date
Whose Birthday is 25th of December ?
For:-
1) ** Dionysius in Greece & Bacchus in Rome was termed “ the only begotten son” of Zeus / Jupiter (pagan god of gods). He was born of a virgin mother named Demeter on December 25th.** To his followers he was the Redeemer and Savior. He called himself the ALPHA and OMEGA.
2) Mithra was the Persian sun-god. His birth also of virgin mother, took place on the 25th of December. Christmas and Easter were the most important festivals of the Mithraists. They had seven sacraments the most important of which were baptism, confirmation and Eucharistic supper at which communicants partook of the divine nature of Mithra under the species of bread and wine.
3) ** Jesus Christ ( Peace upon him) is also claimed to be born on the 25th of December*......which is in doubt for NO one except GOD knows when he was born, * in-fact our calendar which starts from the date of his birth is now considered about 4 to 8 years in error. So how can we know his birth date ? **
But for some reason our ancestor’s have ** coincided his birthdate with some of the pagan cults ** of that time as indicated above. ** Should we after knowing these facts stills continue to celebrate his birthday on the particular day which had been used by pagans. **
In addition,
a) The Bible at times mentions the word used for God in Latin manuscripts ( current copies ) was “Adonis” . ** Adonis was the Savior of Syria, was also born of a virgin mother. He also suffered death for the redemption of mankind. ** He rose from the dead in spring ( Easter).
b) The Bible also mentions Hades , who was the Greek god of the underworld, the lord of dead . Which is currently interpreted as Hell by our Christian scholars.
Other legends ,we need to consider with the same or similar nature attributed to Jesus Christ are:-
1) ** Attis for example , was born of a virgin named Nana and was regarded as the Only begotten Son and Saviour.** He was bled to death on March 24th at the foot of a pine tree and his votaries believed that his blood had renewed the fertility of the earth and thus brought a new life to humanity. He rose from the dead and his death and resurrection were celebrated by his followers.
2) ** Osiris , the Egyptian god was born on 29th of December of a virgin mother.** He was betrayed by one Typhen and was slain. He was buried, remained in hell for two or three days and nights. He then rose from the dead.
3)** The Babylonian Passion play of Baal ( Babylonian sun -god ) and the Christian Bible Passion story are similar in all details ** as described in “Christianity Myth or Message” by Prof. .Dr. Ahmad Zidan.
4) ** The Histories of Buddha and Jesus Christ ( Peace upon him ) are identical** as described by T.W. Doane in his book “ Bible Myths”
** But all this legends and myths existed long before the time of Jesus .**
All this only indicates that the Early Christians have mixed up the pagan cult with the divine mission of Jesus Christ ( peace upon him) due to lack of information,
** For Jesus said “ He will send the comforter or councilor or admirable , when we are ready ” **
I totally agree with you Ibrahim.
The US had first banned Christmas because it was a Pagan festival celebrated in Rome on the 25th of December which celebrated the sUn of God. Before Alabama was a state back in the 1700’s (1791?), was the first place in the US to celebrate Christmas and a lot of Christians all over the world and the US excited with their festival with the lights, etc. decided to make their own festival as well, but as to the sOn of God instead of sUn and call it Christmas (Christ Mass). Before long, the government gave in or they would stand out like a sore thumb and let Christmas become a National Holiday, but somewhere down the line Santas (Satans) were put into the picture. Satan, the Fallen Angel, likes to lure people in on his day (SantaDay-25th of December)and have people actually celebrate him (Satan) rather than Jesus.
The US knew it was Pagan to start with along with Halloween, etc., so once Pagan will always be Pagan so why not throw in Santa-Satans, Red-Nosed Flying Reindeers, etc.
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, its still a Pagan Holiday no matter how you put it because of where or how it originated.
To me, if we are going to celebrate Christmas as the Birthdate of Christ, even though we aren’t sure of the exact day, why not put pictures of Jesus all around and everyone instead of buying gifts, etc. go out to where the poor and helpless people are and on that day, do someone a GREAT DEED such as give a Great Meal Feast to a needy family or these Hot Shot Millionaires here in the US and all over who celebrate Christmas go out to places like Afghanistan, Somalia, Sudan, and use their Millions to build them houses, hospitals, give them food etc. rather than sit on, invest and draw interest, etc. on their millions, that once these millionaires are dead and gone, they want be able to take 1 penny with them. So Christmas to me is Helping Others in Need, not swapping presents. If it is Jesus’s birthday, why are WE swapping gifts? My son gets all excited at Christmas and I ask him all the time, WHY? He says because he wants lots of presents. I tell him, its Jesus’s Birthday and how would he feel if on his (my son) birthday, which is on the 28th of December, if the whole world celebrated his (my son-Jacob) birthday and swapped gifts with everyone and didn’t give (Jacob, my son) not 1 gift? He said he wouldn’t like it and that it wouldn’t be fair.
Where is Jesus’s BirthDay Gift? Why does people buy each other gifts on his so-called Birthday and not even give a present to the Birthday Boy, himself? I think we should give instead of presents ,Good Deeds, by helping the poor, whether it be a nice meal, build them houses, etc, donate money to the poor to help them have a better life, not to charities, but go out and visit with the poor and personally give a good deed, money etc. to them because with charities, you really don’t know who receives your money.
Peace to All,
Michele
[This message has been edited by GoodHeartedChic (edited December 27, 2001).]
Well... Kimmy, I agree w/u!! It's hard seeing ppl call themselves Christians & not practice the Christian religion. Jesus is a BIG part of our religion & when ppl don't celebrate (His said date of birth) w/Him in total mind, it's not right. I'm sure, He notices this & those ppl (God bless them) He will take care of them. Just next time, when someone says something like that...tell them that that's not the meaning of Christmas...blah blah! I also, have noticed this, & I'm sure we're not the only Christians who have. At my church, before our preacher closed, he said "Everyone have a Merry Christmas, enjoy the turkey (it was a joke!!) but most of all remember why we celebrate Christmas, bc's of CHRIST!! Most ppl, around where I live... take Christmas seriously. So I can't say I see a WHOLE lot of ppl who don't practice Christmas the right way, but u better bet when someone tells me something like what they told u, I set em' straight! ;) Really, that's all u can do (well, that & pray 4 those ppl)
& just make sure U always remember
'The TRUE Meaning Of Christmas'
Don't get me wrong, I luv getting gifts, but theres a LOT more to Christmas than that. The gifts are to celebrate a time of giving (to other ppl) that's why we have presents. Your right though, shouldn't we give all year? Shouldn't we celebrate Christ all year? Yes & YES!!! But u see that's all in our religion to know Christ & luv him & to be a good person. We will all be judged, sounds like yr on the right track :) That's all for now, I think I may make ppl on Gup go blind from looking at the screen too long trying to read my post, HeHe.
Just one more thing, once I was writing on my Moms' Christmas card "Merry Christmas" but instead of writing 'Merry Christmas' I simply wrote "Merry X~mas"
Well, my grandfather walked by, & he said "U know, I used to write Merry X~mas until, a friend of mine said "What are u trying to do? X Christ out??" CHRISTmas, do u see?
So, of couse to this day, (lol) I write the whole thing out!! Just a thought, but do u see how that friend, changed thing's? Just by his one little compliment!? Cause' now, netheir my papaw or I write
"Merry X~Mas" When u say something, exspecially something TRUE ppl pick up on that...OK, I've said my peace (HAHA) I hope u & yr family/friends had a Merry Christmas & it's nice to know that u rememberd Christ in yr celebration!!!!
p.s. Sorry if anyone wen't blind during the reading of this post! (hehe...)
I totally agree with all you. Those are really good points you all have. Thanks for sharing.
From what I have heard ...
The question about Jesus Christ’s birthday came about in the second century AD. A sect (can’t remember the name) claimed that Jesus Christ was never born. They claimed that he did not have a human form. To counter this sect, the church decided to declare December 25th as the birthday of Christ. The reason for choosing this date was to make it coincide with a certain pagan festival and bring over more pagans to Christianity.
[quote]
Originally posted by GoodHeartedChic:
Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all
Hi Michele or GHC! thanks for the comments, Mostly agree with your understanding on “what is” and “what it should be” (for a moment there, I assumed someone will be slamming me against a wall , for telling the TRUTH
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)
The only hesitation I would have is that when we know that something is founded on untruth, the more we encourage it or be a part of it, the more we are spreading untruth and misleading others as much as deceiving ourselves. That is IF we want to be true to our souls and also true to others as that is , what “faith” is all about.
This is why in Islam we shun such things, ** for TRUTH can NEVER be allowed to be mixed with UNTRUTH.** This is like mixing drinking water with poison, which will make the water poisonous.
Anyway, somewhere along the line, one should help each other understand the TRUTH as is and not become part of untruth, that would be my advise for those who have been misled and misleading others concerning Christmas and its pomp and glitter.
Christ (pbuh) was indeed born, just like any other human being and he was a mediator and Prophet, just like any other sent by our Creator to a people who had altered the message sent to them earlier.
We can understand this by reading:-
1 Tim 2:5 :- For there is one GOD and ** one mediator between GOD and men, the man Christ Jesus.**
Lk 24: 19… About Jesus of Nazareth " they replied " ** He was a great prophet, ** powerful in word and deed before God and all the people
As for the understanding that he is the “son” , indeed he was the son of Mary (pbuh) but not a son of the Creator .
For the Creator denies such a thing and this was conveyed to the Jews, right form the beginning
Numbers 23: 19. ** God is not a man, ** that he should lie, ** nor a son of man , ** that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?
Hope I am not going off topic , just needed to say this so that we can be clear as to whose son I am are talking about.
** The celebration made for the “SUN” was changed to the celebration of the “SON” of Mary (pbuh) which was indeed an error, is the essence of our agreement. **
Second ** I am very pleased to hear that you would rather give charity directly to the poor then party ** as Christians have been misled to do in such times in our time frame.
For I personally do this every year in the month of Ramadhan , (the whole fasting month, although at times I wish I can afford to do it through out the year, the way I go about it), where I visit 100’s of houses belonging to the poor and hundreds of poor visit me at home , that is my celebration that lasts a whole month and can truly wear me out like no other month.
why I am telling you this is, for you to note how traditions such “as giving gifts” ( originally as charity to others in need) and “santa clauses” ** (originally people going out of their way in giving charity) ** are born and has evolved into what we see today in Christianity
Hence , in my understanding, the giving of gifts were originally acts of charity and people who went out of their way to please others were turned into santa clauses in the Christian faith . This is due to evolution of Christianity, since it lost its original teachings.
Hope that makes it clearer.
Best Regards
Ibrahim
Ibrahim:
Your truth is not necessarily the truth of others. It is certainly not my truth. But I would not dream of slamming you.
1 Tim 2:5 :- For there is one GOD and one mediator between GOD and men, the man Christ Jesus.
In this quote as well as in the ones following it, I believe you are reinstating the Muslim belief that Jesus is a prophet, a man - not the son of God. Which of course is a concept central to the Christian faith.
Mathew 4:5-7
"Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, "If Your are the Son of God, throw yourself down. For it is written: ‘He shall give His angels charge over you,’ and ‘In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’
Jesus said to him, “it is written again,
‘you shall not tempt the Lord your God’.”
Matthew 3:16,17.
“When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were open to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.””
Luke 22:70
"Then they all said, “Are You then the Son of God?” So He (Jesus) said to them “You rightly say that I am”.
I could go on, but than so could you
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.
I respect your beliefs I truly do. But I guess I am just making it clear that when I refer to Christmas, the Christ I refer to is being refered to as the Son of God. Which is my belief, different from yours, yes. But I think this is okay and still good.
This is why in Islam we shun such things, for TRUTH can NEVER be allowed to be mixed with UNTRUTH. This is like mixing drinking water with poison, which will make the water poisonous.
Point acknowledged. But in translations and interpretations there is much confusion. I once asked my mother if it wasn’t a sin to celebrate the birth of Jesus on a date that was manipulated (this date was not set ignorantly or accidently - it was to stamp out paganism) to over rule a peasant pagan holiday. My mother (the sweetest soul I know) said that she was celebrating the birth of her savior and if she didn’t have the date exactly right, she was pretty sure he would forgive her. The important thing was that she was celebrating his birth, and acknowledging God’s gift to the world. I kind of reckon she’s right in this.
GHC,
I hear you, I really do. It seems pretty strange thinking doesn’t it. Jesus as God’s gift to the world, his very life given that we might live. And we say in rembrance of this gift - I give you the Nintendo X Box; Merry Christmas. What a paltry comparison. What shameful gifts we give in remembrance of what we are actually celebrating.
Our family makes a lot of our gifts, this way we can give a little something of ourselves away. We are actively involved with various charities (adopt a family is our favorite)and our children help us. But we are combatting an entire consumer mad world telling them that Christmas is all about objects - not spirit, nor reverance nor remembrance. I don’t know about you, but for us grandparents are the worst. Their expensive and well meaning gifts are completely twisting what we are trying to teach our children.
Santa Claus is universal to an amazing variety of cultures, the name is different for each - but he or she is always the universal spirit of giving. The one who leaves gifts for the children. I kind of like that - I think that it is the American culture that has perverted the poor jolly old elf to become the harebringer of mass consumerism.
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He has nothing to do with the Christian faith, but he is for the US, I believe derived from St. Nicholas, a toy maker who delivered toys to good little boys and girls.
I am very facinated by Ramadhan. An entire month of fasting, prayer and spiritual reflection. Now this is reverence to God! When I compare it to Christmas celebrations, I find myself slightly depressed.
[quote]
Originally posted by tristan07:
tristan07
[quote]
Ibrahim: Your truth is not necessarily the truth of others. It is certainly not my truth. But I would not dream of slamming you.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all
Hi Tristan07,
thanks for the assurance and your input, hope we can have a friendly discussion on what you have written.
You see if there were many or even two truths floating around that would amount to a error since truth is eternal ,and does not change in time. Maybe you will understand this maybe not, but simply put there can be only one tristan07, others can impersonate you but they are not you no matter what will take place, now or in a zillion years , that is the truth.
So those who have decided to believe that this will be the truth for me and that will be the truth for you are not talking about the TRUTH but what they chose for themselves and declared it to be their belief, for themselves without identifying the facts.
[quote]
1 Tim 2:5 :- For there is one GOD and one mediator between GOD and men, the man Christ Jesus.
In this quote as well as in the ones following it, I believe you are reinstating the Muslim belief that Jesus is a prophet, a man - not the son of God. Which of course is a concept central to the Christian faith.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: Yes! No doubt about it, since immaterial of what I may want to think, the verses I quote do originate from the Bible , which is the foundation for Christianity.
As you may have noted I quoted an explicit verse where God said , he is not the son of man (meaning Jesus Christ, who repeatedly called himself as such some 81 times in the NT alone)
Numbers 23: 19. ** God is not a man, ** that he should lie, ** nor a son of man , ** that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?
As for term “ son of God” that appears in the NT , that is being used by others to address Christ and NEVER used by him personally. You may want to research this for yourself.
Further more the angel who gave the good news to Mary did proclaim that people will end up calling him “son of God”
Read!
Luke 1
But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, ** you have found favor with God. **
- You will be with child and give birth to a son, and ** you are to give him the name Jesus. **
He will be great and ** will be called the Son of the Most High.** The Lord ** God will give him the throne of his father David,**
Even here it is clear that people will call him the son of God but his father is David and not God ( according to this verse)
[quote]
Mathew 4:5-7
"Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, ** "If Your are the Son of God, throw yourself down.** For it is written: 'He shall give His angels charge over you,' and 'In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.' Jesus said to him, "it is written again, 'you shall not tempt the Lord your God'."
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: Good that you mentioned this, for clearly this was a challenge by satan to prove that he is indeed son of God, which Christ declined and warned satan not to test God who is also the lord of satan . This does not mean Jesus is God and he should not test him.
This would be simple for you understand when you consider the fact that God, cannot be taken to wherever satan pleases and challenged on the other hand man can be tempted by the devil.
To understand this passage better
Read verse 4 1. Then Jesus ** was led by the Spirit ** into the desert ** to be tempted by the devil.**
Hence God wanted to test Christ and after his “Ramadhan” (prescribed fast of 40 days) he was tested with hunger and by the temptations of satan
Hope this makes it clearer.
[quote]
Matthew 3:16,17."When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were open to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, *"This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."" *
Ibrahim says: hmm, very disturbing indeed, since it was not the only time God had said that in the Bible . Lets look at the Torah :
(Chronicles 17:13)
(The following verse is God talking to David about Solomon)** " I will be His Father and he will be my son. I will never take my love away from him, as I took it away from your predecessor. **
Ibrahim says: Won’t you now consider Prophet Solomon (pbuh) was the son of God? So you may wonder why God said that, if he did not mean it, right?
Let us read another verse …………..
(Hosea 1:10)
Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which can not be measured or counted. In the place where it is said to them, 'You are not my people,' ** they will be called 'sons of the living God. **
Ibrahim says: hence even ordinary people will be called sons of God, when they have pleased God by their actions, no ?
But most of all The** kings of Israel are referred to as sons of God** because they are to be His representatives, ruling in his place on earth over His people.
(Psalm 82:6 )
** "I said, You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High" **
this can be cross referenced to
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, ** `I have said you are gods' ?**
In conclusion, we see that the Bible only uses a phrase that was commonly said by Jews in his days, and Jesus did not claim to have a monopoly on son-ship with God nor did God say such a thing . We are all God's children, Jesus is not the only one and never claimed to be the Begotten one.
Hot Tip: (precise and pertinent)
Jesus said to Mary; "...go to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend to ** my Father and your Father...** " (John 20:17).
This verse demonstrates that the usage of term `Father' by Jesus was not in a physical sense but was purely metaphorical for the Creator. As for Jesus being a "unique son", he, unlike us, was created by the Creator without a physical Father.
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Luke 22:70 "Then they all said, "Are You then the Son of God?" So He (Jesus) said to them "You rightly say that I am".
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Ibrahim says: let me make this clearer for our readers as per the context of this passage
Luke 22: 66. At daybreak the** council of the elders of the people, both the chief priests and teachers of the law, met together, and Jesus was led before them.**
"If you are the Christ, " they said, "tell us." Jesus answered, "If I tell you, you will not believe me,
and if I asked you, you would not answer.
But from now on, ** the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God." **
They all asked, ** "Are you then the Son of God?" He replied, "You are right in saying I am." **
Then they said, "Why do we need any more testimony? We have heard it from his own lips."
Ibrahim says: here a person is being questioned and that person is no other than Christ who already knew his fate in the hands of the questioner s ( wicked priests) , no matter what, they will be trying to pin the charge that he has declared himself “son of God”, which amounted to blasphemy in the Jewish law .
First they ask if he was Christ , and the answer to them was they will not believe, than ** he goes on to reveal that he is “son of man”, who will sit next to God,( Luke 22:69) ** which they do not except so they question him further
They now ask are you son of God? Since they did not accept the fact that he was son of man, his reply was "You are right in saying I am."
Hence in verse 71 we note, they were quick to jump on to those words and declare him guilty of blasphemy.
So If, you took this verse as your evidence that he was son of God, ** why did you reject his words that he is son of man? **
You see so far as Judaism was concerned
God said to prophet Isaiah;
** "I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." ** Isaiah 44:6
so God cannot have another (son or not beside HIM) , which is why the Jews wanted to crucify him.
But seriously you should consider what is written in the same Bible
I Tim 6:
- who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, ** whom no one has seen or can see. ** To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
Exodus 33:
Then Moses said, "Now show me your glory."
- And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
** But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live." **
Hence If God cannot be seen by man , how can his son be seen by man?
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I respect your beliefs I truly do. But I guess I am just making it clear that when I refer to Christmas, the Christ I refer to is being refered to as the Son of God. Which is my belief, different from yours, yes. But I think this is okay and still good.
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Ibrahim says: respect aside, the TRUTH cannot be both, either one of our beliefs is right and the other is wrong or both are wrong .
We can for the sake of respect sympathize and agree it is alright to do what we like BUT honestly will God accept us , if we failed to understand such simple things for which, he had given us life in the first place?
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I once asked my mother if it wasn't a sin to celebrate the birth of Jesus on a date that was manipulated (this date was not set ignorantly or accidently - it was to stamp out paganism) to over rule a peasant pagan holiday. My mother (the sweetest soul I know) said that she was celebrating the birth of her savior and if she didn't have the date exactly right, she was pretty sure he would forgive her. The important thing was that she was celebrating his birth, and acknowledging God's gift to the world. I kind of reckon she's right in this.
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Ibrahim says : mothers are always sweet and will off course hope for the best but hope is one thing and being sure is another, don’t you think so?
I leave it to you to decide for we will all have to account to God and having misconceptions is not going to help us much would it?
Hot Tip:
** "And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me. `Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other." ** Isaiah 45:21-22. (please also read Hosea 13:4). When God said; "all the ends of the earth" He righteously meant it to be so. ** The era of "cross" should make no difference. **
Best regards
Ibrahim
You see if there were many or even two truths floating around that would amount to a error since truth is eternal ,and does not change in time. Maybe you will understand this maybe not, but simply put there can be only one tristan07, others can impersonate you but they are not you no matter what will take place, now or in a zillion years , that is the truth.
Human truth is not divine truth. There can be but one tristan, but tristan is human and not divine. In tristans mind whatever human claims to know one divine truth is arrogantly underestimating and committing blasphemy against God. You claim to know God’s one truth - you judge others on the basis of this truth - but you are not God.
My God has appeared to me throughout my studies of theology in a particular form - I have faith, I accept. But the same God to Muslims has appeared somewhat differently. I refuse to judge this, it is not my place. I refuse to wave the old banner proclaiming that my religion is the one true one, we are the elect, all others are damned. My truth is not your truth obviously, but to call my truth a lie, is to slap me in the face. It is wrong. Your beliefs are rigid, God is not. Simply look at the natural world around you. It flows - it is not static.
1 Tim 2:5 :- For there is one GOD and one mediator between GOD and men, the man Christ Jesus.
Ahhhh dear. I do not like to become theological. But the historical perspective of Christianity is that Christ is both divine and human. This is the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union, a supernatural paradox. Jesus is simutaneously finite and infinite. God’s dealings with humanity are not subject to human patterns of thought. Human beings are finite and it is not possible for a finite mind to capture all the mysteries of God. God can only be known through God’s own self revelation. Only the infinite can express the infinite. Yet the infinite must be expressed in terms of the finite because it is revealed to the finite. The Incarnation is a necessary action because of revelation alone - God taking human nature alongside God’s divine nature expresses the infinite in terms of the finite. Jesus reveals the divine nature in terms of His holiness, His love, His power and his revelatory action. For this reason Jesus is the supreme revelation of God. He reveals the father - John 1:18 - whoever has seen Him has seen the Father. He who is God is also the word of God, he is the climax of revelation. Hebrews 1: 1,2 - ‘God, who at various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds’.To encounter Him is to encounter God himself.
Ibrahim says (in reference to John 3:16): hmm, very disturbing indeed, since it was not the only time God had said that in the Bible . Lets look at the Torah :
This is not as simplistic as Jesus being the son of God. Jesus is divine in nature as is God.
Romans 10:9 - If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
John 8:58 - Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
This is the same answer God gave to Moses, when Moses questioned who he was “I AM”.
John 5:22,23 - 'For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, That all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
This is the primary difference between Muslims and Christians. Islam accuses Christianity of promoting a mere human being - a prophet to the status of the divine. When actually Christians do not believe that man became God but that God took human nature alongside God’s divine nature without ceasing to be God. Although the trinity of the Godhead is certainly another difference, because no Christians do not worship two or three Gods; IE God and Christ. This is monotheism - there are three in one. But you are well versed in both religions so I assume you know that position, you probably do not agree with that opinion. But in my mind that is okay. But not so in yours?
Ibrahim says: respect aside, the TRUTH cannot be both, either one of our beliefs is right and the other is wrong or both are wrong .
But Ibrahim is finite, human, and his version of the truth is this also. I will not state that Ibrahim’s truth is wrong, but I will stand by my truth all the same.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
Ibrahim says : mothers are always sweet and will off course hope for the best but hope is one thing and being sure is another, don’t you think so?
Actually Ibrahim you misunderstand me somewhat. Easy to do online where few words are portraying many flowing thoughts. My mother has a sweet soul yes, and is a great lover of parsimony. But she, as in her personality, is not all sugary. She has a doctorate in education, one of her minors was theology. But her preferable explanations when you will allow her to get away with it are those she finds most parsimonious
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
. Our conversations have gone much further into depth than what I first mentioned. But you seem to imply that listening to my ‘simple mum’ is jepordizing my soul. I don’t think so. She is a well versed scholar of the Bible in her own right. But at times, especially in this turbulent world, I also find myself leaning toward the most parsimonious explanation. Inwardly I could logically and rationally explain my view, but in a world that is half mad - what is the point?
As for Isaiah 45:21-22 I refer back to the trinity.
Mathew 4:5-7 I do not believe that God was being dictated to by Satan. Jesus was of two natures finite and infinite. The spirit is part of the trinity. God was not testing Christ, in Christianity that is not a possibility if one believes in the trinity, which I do.
But you mention Ramadhan - is this the basis of it? I have searched for information on it, and not found any that is of great depth. Why do Muslims do this wonderous thing? I am certainly not making light of it. My father fasts often for religious purposes - but for usually 7 days straight, no food at all. But I thought Ramadhan was a month? You don’t have to answer if you don’t want to. I am just very curious. I guess it is not at odds with Christianity, but it certainly is with America’s culture of consumption. When contrasted against that it is such an incredible display of faith and deference to the divine.
Thank you for the conversation Ibrahim.
[This message has been edited by tristan07 (edited December 29, 2001).]
I don't know if someone has already discussed this question but I know a colleague who thinks that Jesus birthday was a little later. Similarly, I think Russians have different date.
My question is that what is the difference and are people sure that 25th December is the correct date of birth?