[quote]
Originally posted by khan_sahib:
**I don't know if someone has already discussed this question but I know a colleague who thinks that Jesus birthday was a little later. Similarly, I think Russians have different date.
My question is that what is the difference and are people sure that 25th December is the correct date of birth?**
[/quote]
In my post I have refered to Encyclopedia Britanica which clearly states that 25 December was not the date of birth of Eesa (alaihe salam). It was the date of a pagan festival and was adapted by the Christians to show similarity.
I personally believe that the birth would be at a time when fresh dates could be a normal feature as the fact of Maryam (alaihe salam) getting dates off the tree is mentioned without it being stated as a miracle or an abnormality. December is certainly not the period.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
as a child i always wished that santa claus would visit my home and put toys in my socks
my convent education had to do with this idea
anyways i love the idea of santa claus i wish we muslims had a muslim version of santa claus a abdul chacha or something
but now I have realised that it must be difficult for kids who are brought up thinking that Santa is the one who is bringing the gift while the fact is that they are bought by their parents for them. I think it must be heart breaking to know for the kids when they find out that it was not Santa and didn’t exist. IMHO
Factfinder, All my life I wanted to grow older with white beard and that’s even before I knew who was Santa. I still feel the same as older people are sane and sober
Firstly my apologize for the length of this reply, I generally feel comfortable in quoting exact verses of the scripture as is, hence the length of my reply normally gets lengthy not to forget my attempt to explain them clearly in simple English
Ibrahim says: Tristan, exactly what I am saying, you are you! and you are only human and no one else can be you, including God and God is NOT human because God is divine, because you are human and THAT IS THE TRUTH
BTW we are only having an exchange of views and sharing of some information totally based on Christian beliefs, since I am quite well versed with the Bible by the Grace of God, I hope you will be happy to discuss and share without any compulsion totally based on the Bible
Ibrahim says; That is tristan’s mind and I have to let tristan carry on having such a mind But the Truth is we have a Bible and on it God told us what will be considered blasphemy and what will be not. I think you being a Christian you should not invent your own rules as per your mind but accept what God has conveyed
Lets read Matthew 12:
And so I tell you, ** every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. **
** Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man (meaning Jesus Christ) will be forgiven, ** but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
To be honest with you tristan, ** blasphemy is when one equates anything with God or claim to be God or son of God, ** which was the very reason the Jews wanted to crucify Christ in the first place.
You might understand this better when you read
Matthew 26:
“Yes, it is as you say,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: ** In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One** and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, ** "He has spoken blasphemy! ** Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy.
What do you think?" ** “He is worthy of death,” they answered.**
I am sure the Jewish priests as per the above verse are attesting what I am saying, so please do not make a mistake as to what Blasphemy is , BUT we are talking about what is being written in the Bible and we are talking about the TRUTH, as for divine truth , that is a new one on me
J For TRUTH can only be one and cannot be revised at anytime . In fact you have told to seek the TRUTH and the TRUTH will set you free. I hope you will do that, instead of nit picking the verses you like in the Bible while negating other verses in the same Bible.
Ibrahim says: That is not the case and you know it too, for I had written earlier we will all be judged by God, so I cannot possibly be a judge can I? On the other hand being humans we should help each other understand what is being revealed in the scriptures, in that aspect what I have conveyed is based on my knowledge about scriptures. I have an earnest love for them, so by the Grace of God, I am familiar with many scriptures on account of this, I have a wider horizon than many, so I try to help people understand them in simple words . If I failed to that, God will indeed punish me, for not helping my brethren immaterial of their faith.
After all If I am wrong, there is always you to correct me, since we are talking about something that you are familiar with and not something that is new to you.
Ibrahim says; This would be an unacceptable statement, since by saying God appeared to you in a particular form, you are contradicting God’s own words and infusing yours ( read I Tim 6:16. and Exodus 33: 20) on the other hand if you mean you assume God was such and such based on what you have been taught, that is the reason why you are practicing Christianity and that would be perfectly alright, in my view.
Ibrahim says: Here you are quite mistaken, since what is mentioned concerning God in the Bible , is what Muslims believe as Allah who revealed the Qur’an as prophesied in the Bible. Muslims simply attest to this fact that there is no other god except Allah which is what is being revealed to prophet Moses (pbuh) in the Bible.
Read , Deuteronomy 6:
4. Hear, O Israel: ** The LORD our God, the LORD is one. **
Isaiah 43:
“You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and ** believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. **
I, even I, am the LORD, and ** apart from me there is no savior.**
Isaiah 45:
** I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God.** I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me,
John 17:
Jesus said; “And this is eternal life, that they may know ** Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.” **
Ibrahim says : The above statements are the first pillar of Islam, which says : ** There is no god but Allah **,
Which is identical in meaning as per the above message given in the Bible.
Ibrahim says: wait a minute! You are not asked to judge nor am I judging you or anyone else, the bottom line is we are hoping to identify the TRUTH, (which can only be one) as being conveyed in the Bible and not in any other book, what I have been saying is that you have misconceived what is being conveyed by God in the Bible, hence I explained the verse you quoted and gave you pointers as to how you should understand them in light of other verses which all come from the same Bible. I had not mentioned the Qur’an, thus I feel sad that you have been hasty in your conclusion that I have slapped you.
On the contrary I have now changed my hat and talking to you like a Christian would , that is using the Bible to expose what has been misconceived by most.
Ibrahim says: I beg to differ, since you have clearly not understood the message in the Gospel and why Christ was hated and the Jewish priests who themselves had 613 laws to follow wanted to crucify him.
Let me give you a sample of what Christ instituted for the Jews , which annoyed them a great deal.
Matthew 5;
"You have heard that it was said, `Do not commit adultery.’
** But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. **
** If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. ** It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
** And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. ** It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
"It has been said, `Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’
** But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. **
"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, `Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.’
** But I tell you, Do not swear at all: ** either by heaven, for it is God’s throne;
or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King.
And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black.
** Simply let your Yes' be Yes,’ and your No,' No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one. **
"You have heard that it was said, `Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’
** But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person.** If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic,** let him have your cloak as well. **
** If someone forces you ** to go one mile, go with him two miles.
Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
"You have heard that it was said, `Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
** But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,**
** that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. ** He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Ibrahim says; Is this what you mean by rigid? Or do you suppose those are not Christ words? Muslims stick to what was conveyed because that is the requirement by God, that does not mean the are static but it means they are obedient.
The idea that Islam is static and does not flow is a very narrow view but I guess you are entitled to your opinions.
Ibrahim says: hmm, only one problem, God denies it outright in the Bible, I quoted the verse twice already , guess I need to repeat it again , since you brushed it aside without due consideration.
Read, Numbers 23: 19. ** God is not a man, ** that he should lie, ** nor a son of man , ** that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?
You see tristan,
God is not a man
God will not lie
Nor is God son of man , meaning Not Jesus Christ
Nor will God change his mind after telling us what is to come in the revelations.
Thus , your statements becomes contradictory to God’s statements.
This is further confirmed by
Isaiah 46:
** Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other;** I am God, and there is none like me.
** I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.** I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.
Ibrahim says; hence what ever is to take place was conveyed to mankind from the beginning, that is why, even in the hindu scriptures you will find mention of the end and its related events to take place in a future time frame
Anyway, I hope I have enlightened you further on this matter since God’s words has more authority than yours or mine and should be considered with care.
Ibrahim says: agreed But when God revealed what is to come from the beginning and will not change His mind, nor lie, we better be sure not to contradict His words by inventing our own .
Ibrahim says: agreed, but when God gave instructions and details to follow they are not mysteries are they?
Ibrahim says: wasn’t that why a scripture was revealed and repeated again and again when it get altered by man?
Ibrahim says: Many a prophet wanted/demanded to see God and NONE OF THEM were able to see Him, simply because of His magnificence , meaning no human being can see God and live. This is like one trying to see the sun up close. Thus, such notions are negated in the Bible ( read I Tim 6:16. and Exodus 33: 20). The need for God to become man in order to express himself is an erroneous notion , since angels have been appointed for such purpose. The inability of God to create a brain that does not comprehend God and still expect that brain to submit to Him is absurd.
Do you recall you quoted
Matthew 3:16,17.“When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were open to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. ** And suddenly a voice came from heaven, ** saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.””
Ibrahim says : SEE. One can only hear His voice , if that is His will to speak to man.
Now think carefully as per what is being conveyed in the above verse
Even Christ cannot see God but only hear him, does this make it clear to you that God and Christ are two different entities and at the same time note the info on the spirit of God which is descending like a dove on Christ, that is another entity, which is separate from God . Thus in this verse itself we see that Christ, the spirit of God and God are not one in nature with each of them . Thus denying the incarnation and trinity theories.
Ibrahim says: Now you are confusion me , earlier you pointed out that he was the son of God , now you say he is the supreme revelation of God, are you not confusing yourself?
Ibrahim says: Read Luke 9:48. One day to prove a point and settle an argument, Jesus picked up a child and said to his disciples; ** “Whoever receives this child in my name receives me; and whoever receives me receives Him who sent me;” **
Tristan, Does this make the child Messiah or God by receiving the child?
** The call of sincerity demands that if believing in the Truth is the honest intention then one could only pass an ethical judgment after reflecting upon other relevant texts. **
Hot Tip: (precise and pertinent)
John 13:16
Jesus said; “Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master; ** neither one who is sent greater than the one Who sent him.”**
John 5: 37.
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. ** You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, **
Ibrahim says: hence relying on one verse and negating another is not what TRUTH is all about, the Bible will give a consistent message when the details are accurate, if it failed to do that then we need to find out why by trying to read the originals , but alas there is none and we are having the problem because there original were lost.
Ibrahim says: Sorry tristan, this is a misconceived notion, in the sense that the word of God and God are two separate issues, what ever God says becomes the word of God and God alone is God and no other. That is a very consistent message from God as per the Bible.
Ibrahim says: I will quote you from the same Hebrews to show you how mistaken you are by not reading the whole chapter
Hebrews 3
Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on ** Jesus, the apostle and high priest ** whom we confess.
** He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful ** in all God’s house.
Ibrahim says: see the Hebrews believed he was an apostle and high priest although they address him as son, that did not mean he was son of God but the apostle and high priest of God.
If you read further you will understand what they meant
Read,
Hebrew 6:
where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. ** He has become a high priest forever,** in the order of Melchizedek.
So when you confuse yourself by thinking he was God or the son of God or he is divine and equal to God in some way or another, that would be a grave error on your part and not on the part of the Bible.
Ibrahim says: sorry, I think you are mistaken we were talking about Matthew 3:16,17 and not John 3:16. I stressed that here in (Chronicles 17:13) Prophet Solomon (pbuh) was also the “son of God”, which NO Christian will accept, as true, yet they will claim Jesus is the only son of God .
That is very wrong, don’t you think so?
Ibrahim says; Christ was a word from God but not God that is what is being conveyed in John 1 : 1 and also in the Qur’an ( just mentioning it for your info)
In John 3:16, you should check various Bibles to note that there is no begotten son, mentioned in that verse either.
** I believe Jesus was a “Messiah”; “Spirit from God”; “Word of God”; “the righteous Prophet” as well as “the Messenger of God” and “the son of Virgin Mary”. But, I do not believe Jesus was “the begotten son of God.” ** The truth of the matter is apostle John never ever wrote; Jesus was “the begotten” son of God in the original Greek text. The most recent edition of the revised King James Version has omitted the word “begotten” from the above text.
Ibrahim says; This is common missionary statement and not part of the Gospel
This is a quotation from one of the Epistles (letters) supposedly written by Paul. While reading a passage from an Epistle one has to bear in mind that these letters when written by the author, were a sort of discourse containing religious instructions and admonitions, and, were not intended to form a part and parcel of the canonical Scripture.
2. To substantiate the above claim, please read 1 Corin 7:25-26 and 7:40. Here Paul writes; ** "I give an opinion"; "in my opinion" and "I think" (twice). Whereas, Jesus - the prophet of God, admitted; "...and I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught me." (John 8:28).** One has to differentiate "my opinion" and "my thought" from the divinely "tutored" documents.
3. In 2 Corin 12:16, Paul - a zealous persecutor of the disciples that overnight became a fervent propagator of `Christianity', makes a perplexing statement; ** "...crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit." Jesus was a righteous prophet propagating the `Kingdom of God'. His mission was, alike every other Jewish prophet, to glorify God alone. **
Imagine, you are at a crossroad. There are three signs:
a. One written by Jesus says; Take the Right turn to reach the Destination.
b. One written by Paul says; Take the Left turn.
c. One written by the Old Testament; Take the Right turn.
** Which way should you be headed if you wish to reach the Destination with certainty? **
5. Now let us go to Roman 10:9-10, Please continue reading the succeeding verses, which say;** "For the Scripture says, `Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed'. For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call upon Him; for `Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved." ** (Roman 10:11-13).
Note: The editors of the New Testament have created confusion by translating the Greek word Theos' (meaning, God) as "Lord". And, the Greek word Kurios’ (meaning, Master, Owner, Head of a house, Teacher) as “Lord”, as well. For those who consider Jesus to be God, it may not make any difference, but for the rest it does.
6. To resolve the dilemma as to ** who is this "the same Lord" who is the Lord of Jews, of Greeks and of all; ** let us go to verses 3:29-30 in the same Epistle. It reads; ** "Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also –if indeed God is one- and He will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith." ** Jews never accepted Jesus as their Prophet or Messiah, leave alone accepting him as their Lord (Master) or as their Lord (God). So, "Lord Jesus" is out of the picture, ** leaving "Lord the God" to be the "one God" of all. **
7. The verse that you had quoted has one very portentous underlying theme which you probably might have over looked. It reads; "and ** (if you) ** believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved." This sentence conveys there were two separate entities:
a. One called Jesus, who was dead and lying in a tomb.
b. One called God, who was alive and able to perform acts.
The entity (b) raised the entity (a). The fact is (a) was in the agony of death. “And God raised him up again, putting an end to the agony of death…” Acts 2:24. ** I hope, everyone reading the above will recognize; “the dead” and “the alive” to be two distinct entities and “un-equal”, ** whenever one thinks of the “Risen Jesus”.
Would it not be an unfair practice on the part of the Almighty God to have sent His son as a “Savior to all” thousands of years after Adam. Did not that deprive those born before the Christian Era of “the easy way out” to the Salvation? ** God cannot be unfair. He is a Righteous God. **
9. Tom Harpur, a former professor of New Testament and an Anglican Minister writes; "Perhaps I am lacking in piety or some basic instinct, but I know I am not alone in finding ** the idea of Jesus' death as atonement for the sins of all humanity on one level bewildering and on the other morally repugnant. ** Jesus never to my knowledge said anything to indicate that forgiveness from God could only be granted `after' or because of' the cross." (For Christ's Sake, p.75).
Hot Tip:
"And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Saviour; There is none except Me. `Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other." Isaiah 45:21-22. (please also read Hosea 13:4). When God said; "all the ends of the earth" He righteously meant it to be so.
** The era of “cross” should make no difference. **
Ibrahim says: This notion is based upon a simple conjecture.
Even the editors of K.J.V. insinuate that fact. Under the foot note of Exodus 3:14 the editors write; “Jesus probably alluded to this name of God in John 8:58, 'Before Abraham was, I AM.” The use of phrase ** “probably alluded” ** clearly indicates it is not an established reality. My dear friend, a surmise can never take place of (replace) an acknowledged statement. This is what ** Jesus said; "…I am he, * and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things."* (John 8:28) . God of Moses that claimed “I AM THAT I AM” had no instructor or tutor, and, needed no tutoring.
** If God had an instructor or an educator, then what would you call that entity? God’s mentor or boss?? **
As for the existence of Jesus before his birth, ** please remember Jesus was anointed by God before he was born. Hence, he was called Christ (Messiah). ** Besides Jesus, there were others who were either anointed, consecrated or made holy, before their births. Read Ps. 89:20, Is. 45:1, 61:1; 1 Sam. 24:6. God did take a solemn covenant from Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad ( peace be upon them) before they were sent, reveals the Qur’an (just for your info).
Bible records, God came to prophet Jeremiah and said to him; ** “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.” ** Jeremiah 1:5.
Hot Tip:
When Jews were doubtful about the identity of a particular blind beggar who had been healed by Jesus, ** the blind beggar - who was no more blind, kept saying; “I am (he)”** (John 9:9, K.J.V.). He did not state he was God, but “he” meaning previously the blind man. I am “he” (the once blind man).
Further more, the beggar when questioned about Jesus who had healed him, replied to Jews; "And he said, ** “He is a prophet.” ** (John 9:17).
Ibrahim says: Lets read Romans 2:5-16
But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, ** you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. **
** God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” **
Read 1 Corin. 15:28
“And when all things are subjected to him, ** then the Son himself also will be subjected to the one who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.” **
This proves that God alone is the Ultimate Supreme Authority and Jesus Christ is one of His subjects. Furthermore, it will be the God that will subject all other things, including the death, to Jesus Christ.
Hot Tip:
God said to prophet Isaiah:
“I am the first and I am the last, And ** there is no God besides Me."** Isaiah 44:6
Romans 14:
It is written: “As surely as I live,' says the Lord, ** every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'”**
** So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. **
Revelation 11:
And the ** twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God,**
saying: "We give thanks to you, ** Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was,** because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign.
The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. ** The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great-- and for destroying those who destroy the earth." **
Ibrahim says: hence it is certain that it is God who will be doing the judging and not Christ,
Christ on his part will be mediator for his flock, just like the rest of the 24 elders will be mediate for their respective flocks.
BTW the 24 elders are the Prophets who were given distinctive directives by God and they are the leaders that had to be followed , which what the verse you quote means in principal
“He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him”
meaning If we failed to obey and assigned prophet at a given time frame , we are actually disobeying God, since that prophet was assigned by God for the people of that time frame.
Ibrahim says: as I have demonstrated NO such thing is being conveyed in the Bible and in TRUTH, the Bible actually conveys what the Muslims do believe in principal.
Ibrahim says: Yes! Muslims and those who understand the Bible better than others amongst Christians too will not be able to accept any trinity stuff being revealed in the Bible.
The Doctrine of Trinity' advocates that there are three Persons’, but the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, is One; such is the Father, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit; the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal, neither compounding the `Persons’ nor dividing the Substance.
In brief; the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are “co-equal”, “co-eternal” and “co-substantial”. None is greater than the other, before or after the other in time or dissimilar than the other in substance.
Muslims do not subscribe to the `Doctrine of Trinity’ because the under quoted twelve verses from the New Testament (NASB) ** categorically and in very EXPLICITE TERMS NEGATE the TRINITY concept. **
“…I go to the Father; for ** the Father is greater than I”.** John.14:28
“But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and ** God is the head of Christ.” ** 1 Corin. 11:3
“Behold, ** My servant whom I have chosen; ** My Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased; ** I will put My Spirit upon him, and he shall proclaim justice ** to the Gentiles.” Matthew 12:18
“The ** God ** of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, ** has glorified His Servant Jesus…”** Acts 3:13.
5.. "For truly in this city there were gathered together against ** Thy holy Servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint…** " Acts 4:27.
6.“For you first, ** God raised up His Servant, ** and sent him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways.” Acts 3:26
“And you belong to Christ; and ** Christ belongs to God.”** 1 Corin 3:23.
“And this is eternal life, that they may know ** Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.” ** John 17:3
"And Jesus said to him, `Why do you call me good?** No one is good except God alone.** " Mark 10:18
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, ** nor the Son, but the Father alone.”** Matthew 24:36
“Jesus said to her, 'Stop clinging to me; for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my bretheren, and say to them, ** I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” ** John 20:17
“And he withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, and ** he knelt down and began to pray, saying, `Father, if Thou art willing, ** remove this cup from me;** yet not my will, but Thine be done.” ** Luke 22:41-42
Hot Tip:
To those who advocate the `Doctrine of Trinity' I request them to read
Matthew 4:10; “Then Jesus said to him, `Begone, Satan! For it is written, ** You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.'” **
Ibrahim says: hope you can share my replies with her, the point being, at least we had something to contribute for each others understanding and how mistaken we can be , If we had only read what we wanted and rejected what was beyond our understanding or what opposed our preconceived views
Ibrahim says : fasting has been prescribed for all generations and prophets even the hindus were fasting and as time past they altered it, just like the Jews and Christians.
Kindly read the following texts to understand more about it,
Duet 9:9. When I ( Moses) went up on the mountain to receive the tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant that the LORD had made with you, ** I stayed on the mountain forty days and forty nights; I ate no bread and drank no water. **
Duet 9:18. Then once again ** I fell prostrate before the LORD for forty days and forty nights; I ate no bread and drank no water, because of all the sin you had committed, ** doing what was evil in the LORD’s sight and so provoking him to anger.
Duet 9: 25. I lay prostrate before the LORD those ** forty days and forty nights** because the LORD had said he would destroy you.
Mt 4: 1. Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.
2. ** After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry.**
Mt 17: 21. (KJV) Howbeit this kind goeth not out ** but by prayer and fasting. **
( Some Bibles will not have this verse)
Mt 9:15. Jesus answered, "How can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them? ** The time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; then they will fast. **
Mt 6: 16. ** "When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, ** for they disfigure their faces to show men they are fasting. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.
Isa 58, 3. ** Why have we fasted,' they say, and you have not seen it? ** Why have we humbled ourselves, and you have not noticed?’ ** "Yet on the day of your fasting, you do as you please and exploit all your workers. **
** Your fasting ends in quarreling and strife, and in striking each other with wicked fists. ** You cannot fast as you do today and expect your voice to be heard on high.
** Is this the kind of fast I have chosen, only a day for a man to humble himself? Is it only for bowing one’s head like a reed and for lying on sackcloth and ashes? Is that what you call a fast, a day acceptable to the LORD? **
"Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke?
Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter-- when you see the naked, to clothe him, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?
Ibrahim says: I mentioned ramadhan so that you will understand that this was a lengthy one like the Muslims practice and not what Christians may be doing at this time frame which is what the Jews turned it into and God questions them in Isaiah 58.
Ibrahim says: Muslims fast because it was a commandment from God, the same commandment that Moses and Jesus ( peace be upon them) obeyed in their life times.
God did not ask us to kill ourselves but to practice self restraint! ** Fasting is self restraint ** and I am happy to note your father does that, but do advise him not to harm himself by not eating anything . The time of fast and the time of its breaking were taught by the Prophets but since they altered the message given to them , people were left to wonder and wander and invent things for themselves. Which is what Muslims forbid and will not do, in order to preserve those teachings and save the future generation from ending up not knowing what was conveyed by God as to how the fast was to be done.
Read Isaiah 58, and you will understand why fasting was prescribed for a length of time(40 days) for the Jews but they turned it into one day
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But I thought Ramadhan was a month?
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Ibrahim says Yes, Ramadhan is a Muslim month where fasting is prescribed for Muslims, the earlier Muslims ( those that Followed strictly to all Prophets and Prophet Moses and Prophet Eesa ( Christ) teachings had their fasting prescribed for 40 days, according to their respective calendar months but that had been turned into one day by the Jews ( as per Isaiah 58)
Hope I have not offended you by telling you the TRUTH as I see it and as is written in the Bible, and for the time you need to digest this exchange.
Well... I don´t master English, then I don´t realy get the true meaning of these all words. But I´m Christian and I can´t be in silent.
Ibrahim, u´re right. Ur words are in agreement with the Holy Scriptures, on 2Corinthians 6:14-18 wich says "... what fellowship do rigtheousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Belial? (...) get out from them, and separate urselves..." . This the reason cause thousands and thousands of true Christians DON´T CELEBRATE Christmas. Though Scriptures don´t talk exactly about Xmas, it gives light upon this issue by two things:
1º) Jesus was born when there were shepherds on fields. It was impossible on winter, cause winter´s night was so cold for living out doors with all their sheep. Then, it was not December.
2º) Birthday itself was mentioned twice on Scriptures in a bad way, linked with pagans. Second as "The Lore of Birthdays", by Ralph and Adelin Linton, it was linked with magics practics and spiritism. I can´t wonder Jesus or his disciples in this kind of party, can u?
I know if they hadn’t of re-written the original Bible over and over and over again, to better fit themselves, it would help to clear up a lot of misunderstandings.
I’ve always heard that the Quran still has the original words and has never been re-written, but I’ve come across a couple of disturbing statements from the Quran that doesn’t sound like anything from God.
[al-Ma’idah 5:51] O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
[an-Nisa’ 4:89] They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them.
Can you help to clarify these two verses?
It states Friends, not allies, etc. or they would’ve used allies, but frienditself.
Hi GHC, if you or anyone else for that matter ( includes me too) will not get confused in life, they have to be considered gods, so confusion is common where human’s are concerned and I have to admire your desire to find out more instead of remaining confused as most people will settle down to do.
Ibrahim says: Yes and NO! although you are right at the end part, what has been foretold and takes place is…, when scripture gets altered by man, God ensures that prophets and messengers are sent to correct the problem . But when priests and followers that edited the scripture persist in revising the teachings and kill the prophets and continue editing the scripture , the original scripture is removed from them ( it disappears) and the people are left with an edited “own” version (s) that they have invented for themselves.
Thus there are NO originals for most of the religions that we see mankind practicing in this day and time.
The removed original is then entrusted to another set of people in their own tongue ( which will make it look as though it is new scripture) . Thus the original NEVER gets altered but is returned to mankind in another language until they too start altering it , it will disappear from them as foretold.
This cycle has gone on for some time, as such we see many religions with people willing to kill each other to protect their scriptures which they believe is the true message from God not excepting that fact that what they have is an altered message and only ONE true message will exist on this planet at any given time frame.
** In this manner God had ensured His message remains intact forever and only one original will be found at any given time frame revealing the TRUTH. Others will contain some truth and some falsehood thus making it falsehood altogether **
In other words NONE of God’s words can be edited by mankind at anytime, they will always remain intact but mankind can author one for himself with partial/mixed up contents of the original message which was in their memory with additions and omissions to suit their whims and fancies and that God will allow till the day of judgment, for that is what that group of people wanted. ( since they killed the Prophets sent to them, in order to have it their way)
In the case of the Gospel, the Original should be in only one ( not 4) in the Aramaic tongue, But alas, none exist in that tongue, but the current originals for the 4 Gospels are Greek, which has some 20, 000 manuscripts ( broken bits and pieces) BUT NO two are exact or identical in nature, that itself mean we have a grave problem. ** Most of all translations from one language to another can NEVER reflect its original flavor. Thus all translations will have problems. ( including the Qur’an) **
Ibrahim says: To know what can come from God and what cannot come form God, one has to be the Holy spirit ( Angel Gabriel) , which we are not,
Simply put, I can understand that you find these verses discriminatory and God would not do that, since we are all his creations immaterial of race or ethnicity.
What you fail to understand is that, the purpose of life itself means “separation from evil/unbelief”, hence all revelations given to all prophets, contain information towards the need to separate from people who have gone astray. ** And surely God will know for sure who had gone astray and who is in the right path. **
This can be better understood by reading the Gospel, Matthew 10:
Jesus said:
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. ** I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. **
For ** I have come to turn "`a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—**
** a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’ **
"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me ** is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me ** is not worthy of me;
Ibrahim says ; from the above passage you can note how serious the separation was to be, be it your parents or your loved ones,** if they are astray, one MUST separate from them without reservations,** that is the meaning behind the sword, which implies that Christ was sent to cut them apart and not sent to teach Islam ( peace means Islam in one sense)
Hope I made that clear, Hence there is no discrimination whatsoever in the message given by God in the Qur’an either, which meant that believers must separate and not take and unbelievers as his /her legal guardian/friend/protector/trusted counsel ** ( meaning: those who guard/protect/befriend/or you entrust, must have sound faith about God, so that one will not be led into unbelief by them) **
The reason is simple, when one takes an unbeliever into such close quarters, they will become influenced by them and will get misled by their unbelief due to their overpowering effect over you , this is the same reason why a Muslim women is forbidden from marrying an unbeliever but a Muslim man is allowed to marry a Christian or Jewish woman.
Thus by the very command that a man who is supposed to be stronger in nature as compared to the woman, being allowed to marry a Christian or Jewish woman , God had not discriminated due to race but given correct guidance as to how one can protect their faith from being subjugated by unbelief by the stronger person.
Lets read another verse, to make sure What God commands
Qur’an 49: 13 ** O mankind! ** We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female ** and made you into nations and tribes that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise each other).** Verily the most honored of you in the sight of Allah ** is (he who is) the most righteous of you.** And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).
Thus the warning given by God is to protect your faith by associating with those who are faithful and not being led into unbelief by those who are unfaithful.
Hope that made that clearer.
Ibrahim says; I think what I have said above is what is being conveyed in those verses .
Let me make it in point form
God does not want believers to be misled by unbelievers and warns them for their own protection to keep away from them, where their influence might affect their faith. Since it has been witnessed by God, over and over again they have united against faith.
God allows Muslim man to marry Jewish or Christian women but forbids Muslim women to do the same for their own protection , which also has to do with being misled and loss of faith in God.
Having said that, let me make this abundantly clear, each verse given in any scripture will have specific meanings and general meanings, the reason being that a particular revelation (texts/verses/passage) may be related to a particular incident and cannot be used as pretext to apply for all occasions or conditions.
** The point being If we misconstrue the above verse and say a Muslim is forbidden contact with a Jew or Christian, how in the world can a Muslim man be allowed to marry a Jew/Christian woman and become related to them forever? **
So you see, to understand scriptures, one need to understand many aspect not just pick and chose one verse and base our judgment on it.
Hope that make that clearer.
[an-Nisa’ 4:89] They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them.
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Ibrahim says; same thing here, but in this case your concern must be on the words “kill them” , which one may find and wonder why?
Lets read one verse above and one verse below what you quoted
88 ** Why should ye be divided into two parties about the hypocrites?** Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the way never shalt thou find the way
89 They but wish that ye should reject faith as they do and thus be on the same footing (as they): but take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). ** But if they turn renegades seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; ** and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.
90 ** Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace) or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people.** If Allah had pleased He could have given them power over you and they would have fought you: ** therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not and (instead) send you (guarantees of) peace then Allah hath opened no way for you (to war against them).**
Ibrahim says; Hence if you tried to understand what is being revealed , this is specifically related to an incident where the hypocrites had run away and deserted the Muslims when they were at war with the unbelievers .
Let me guide you to a commentary concerning that passage written by Yusof Ali ( commentaries are needed to better understand revealed texts, so get a copy of the Qur’an with commentaries for better understanding.
** When the desertion of the Hypocrites at Uhud nearly caused a disaster to the Muslim cause there was great feeling among the Muslims of Madinah against them. One party wanted to put them to the sword: another to leave them alone. ** The actual policy pursued avoided both extremes, and was determined by these verses. It was clear that they were a danger to the Muslim community if they were admitted into its counsels, and in any case they were a source of demoralization. But while every caution was used, ** no extreme measures were taken against them. On the contrary, they were given a chance of making good. If they made a sacrifice for the cause (“flee from what is forbidden,” see next verse), their conduct purged their previous cowardice, and their sincerity entitled them to be taken back. But if they deserted the Muslim community again, they were treated as enemies, with the additional penalty of desertion which is enforced by all nations actually at war.** Even so, a humane exception was made in the two cases specified in iv. 90
In time of war, if a man is willing to submit to discipline and refrain from infringing orders issued, he has proved his fidelity and may be treated as a member of the community at war. On the other hand if he by false pretences comes into the inner counsels merely to betray them, he may rightly be treated as a traitor or deserter and be punished for his treason or desertion; or if he escapes, he can be treated as an enemy and is entitled to no mercy. He is worse than an enemy: he has claimed to be of you in order to spy on you, and been all the time helping the enemy *
Ibrahim says : Thus it is important to know which verse is related to and revealed for what incident/purpose, not knowing such things can cause great confusion even amongst Muslims, so I have to excuse you for not knowing them.
Ibrahim says; Whatever it may be translated to in English, the word in its original tongue can have various meanings and will have to be changed according to context and translators are only translating as to their best knowledge and will normally use just one meaning immaterial of context.
Let me illustrate this for you in our beautiful English language .
We must polish ** the ** Polish furniture.
He could ** lead ** if he would get the ** lead ** out.
The farm was used to ** produce produce.**
The dump was so full that it had to ** refuse ** more ** refuse.**
The soldier decided to ** desert ** in the ** desert. **
This was a good time to ** present ** the ** present. **
(And this last could mean “gift” or “era of time”)
A ** bass ** was painted on the head of the ** bass ** drum.
When shot at, the ** dove dove ** into the bushes.
I did not ** object ** to the ** object.**
The insurance was ** invalid ** for the ** invalid.**
The bandage was ** wound ** around the ** wound. **
There was a ** row ** among the oarsmen about how to ** row.**
They were too close to the door to close it.
The buck does funny things when the does are present.
They sent a sewer down to stitch the tear in the sewer line.
To help with planting, the farmer taught his sow to sow.
The wind was too strong to wind the sail.
After a number of injections my jaw got number.
Upon seeing the tear in my clothes I shed a tear.
I had to subject the subject to a series of tests.
How can I intimate this to my most intimate friend?
Ibrahim says; ** Imagine an alien trying to make sense of it all by comparing the words ? **
[quote]
Originally posted by janete:
1º) Jesus was born when there were shepherds on fields. It was impossible on winter, cause winter´s night was so cold for living out doors with all their sheep. Then, it was not December.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; Greetings of Peace to one and all
Hi janete,
Basically this is the Muslim argument against the current Christian innovation and is also confirmed by the Qur’an. The Birth was NEVER in winter time. Anyway it does not matter to those who have faith , when Christ was born But in Christianity this issue becomes crucial since they want to identify when will be his return and get ready to declare war on everyone else ( especially Muslims) every millennium. ( which you see has been taking place some ten years back and likely to continue another 10 years more.)
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2º) Birthday itself was mentioned twice on Scriptures in a bad way, linked with pagans. Second as "The Lore of Birthdays", by Ralph and Adelin Linton, it was linked with magics practics and spiritism. I can´t wonder Jesus or his disciples in this kind of party, can u?
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; Yes, the ancients NEVER celebrated birth of any person , simply because one does not know what a person will turn out to be on his birth but they may have commemorated the deaths of saintly people since people knew that such persons were pious and had been a boon to their community.
Thus it is recorded the deaths of Prophets and saints were commemorated . The current innovation of celebrating Christ mass is based on Mithraism.
The pagan Romans have cleverly disguised Mithraism and marketed it as Christianity , hence the reason for the observance of such rituals which Mithraism practiced being embodied in the Christian rituals.
For the Love of God, Christ did not worship God in the manner today’s Christians do their worship, so celebrating Christmas is nothing compared to what is being done in the church in the name of Christ.
, seems that is the only way I can tickle your brains!
I have two translation one from Yusof Ali and another from Pickthtall PLUS the ARABIC transliteration for you to identify what or how Arabic words can be translated to in the English translations.
Now it is up to you to tickle your brains yourself, since you were unable to get the meaning behind my earlier statements.
Good luck.
45:19
Yusuf Ali They will be of no use to thee in the sight of Allah: it is only Wrongdoers (that stand as) ** protectors ** one to another: but Allah is the ** Protector ** of the Righteous.
Pickthall Lo! they can avail thee naught against Allah. And lo! as for the wrong doers, some of them are ** friends** of others; and Allah is the ** Friend ** of those who ward off (evil).
Transliteration In nahum lay yugnu_ anka minal la_hi sai a_ wa in naz za_limina baduhum ** auliya_ ** u badiw wal la_hu ** waliy ** yul mut taqin
Ibrahim says: DID YOU NOTICE how auliya and waliy are being translated in the same verse? The rest should be easy.
19:45
Yusuf Ali “O my father! I fear lest a Penalty afflict thee from (Allah) Most Gracious so that thou become to Satan a ** friend.” **
Pickthall O my father! Lo! I fear lest a punishment from the Beneficent overtake thee so that thou become a ** comrade ** of the devil.
Transliteration Ya_ abati in ni akha_fu ay yamas saka adza_bum minar rahma_ni fataku_na lis saitha_ni ** waliy ** ya_
42:8
Yusuf Ali If Allah had so willed He could have made them a single people; but He admits whom He will to His Mercy; and the wrongdoers will have no ** protector **nor helper.
Pickthall Had Allah willed, He could have made them one community, but Allah bringeth whom He will into His mercy. And the wrong-doers have no ** friend ** nor helper.
Transliteration Wa lau sa_ al la_hu lajaalahum umataw wa_hidataw wa la_kiy yudkhilu may yasya_u fi rahmatih waz za_limu_na ma_ lahum miw ** waliy ** yiw wa la_ nasir
48:22
Yusuf Ali If the Unbelievers should fight you they would certainly turn their backs; then would they find neither ** protector ** nor helper.
Pickthall And if those who disbelieve join battle with you they will take to flight, and afterward they will find no ** protecting friend ** nor helper.
Transliteration Wa lau qa_talakumul lazina kafaru_ lawal lawul adba_ra sum ma la_ yajidu_na ** waliy ** yaw wa la_ nasira_
42:6
Yusuf Ali And those who take as ** protectors ** others besides Him Allah doth watch over them; and thou art not the disposer of their affairs.
Pickthall And as for those who choose ** protecting friends ** beside Him, Allah is Warden over them, and thou art in no wise a guardian over them.
Transliteration Wal lazinat takazu_ min du_nihi ** auliya_** al la_hu hafizun alaihim wa ma_ anta alaihim biwakil
5:51
Yusuf Ali O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your ** friends ** and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
Pickthall O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians for ** friends. ** They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
Transliteration Ya_ ayyuhal lazina a_manu_ la_ tattakhizul yahu_da wan nasa_ra_ ** auliya_'(a)** , ba’duhum auliya_'u ba’d(in), wa may yatawallahum minkum fa innahu_ minhum, innalla_ha la_ yahdil qaumaz za_limin(a).
7:3
Yusuf Ali Follow (O men!) the revelation given unto you from your Lord and follow not as ** friends or protectors ** other than Him. Little it is ye remember of admonition.
Pickthall (Saying): Follow that which is sent down unto you from your Lord, and follow no** protecting friends** beside Him. Little do ye recollect!
Transliteration Ittabi’u_ ma_ unzila ilaikum mir rabbikum wa la_ tattabi’u_ min du_nihi ** auliya_'(a),** qalilam ma_ tazakkaru_n(a).
11:20
Yusuf Ali They will in nowise frustrate (His design) on earth nor have they ** protectors ** besides Allah! Their Penalty will be doubled! They lost the power to hear and they did not see!
Pickthall Such will not escape in the earth, nor have they any ** protecting friends ** beside Allah. For them the torment will be double. They could not bear to hear, and they used not to see.
Transliteration Ula_‘ika lam yaku_nu_ mu’jizina fil ardi wa ma_ ka_na lahum min du_nilla_hi min ** auliya_’(a),** yuda_'afu laumul 'aza_b(u), ma_ ka_nu_ yastati’u_nas sam’a wa ma_ ka_nu_ yubsiru_n(a).
18:102
Yusuf Ali Do the Unbelievers think that they can take my servants as ** protectors ** besides Me? Verily We have prepared Hell for the Unbelievers for (their) entertainment.
Pickthall Do the disbelievers reckon that they can choose My bondmen as ** protecting friends** beside Me? Lo! We have prepared hell as a welcome for the disbelievers.
Transliteration Afahasibal lazina kafaru_ ay yat takhizu_ iba_di min du_ni ** auliya_ ** in na_ a’tadna_ jahan nama lilka_firina nuzula_
[quote]
Originally posted by GoodHeartedChic:
** So, in the original Quran, before translation into English, it has the word "wali" instead of "friend"?
**
[/quote]
Yes, the word closest to friend is siddique.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
[quote]
Originally posted by FactFinder:
**Kabir and khan_sahib.
I read a very good analogy of three stages in a man's life:
Stage 1 - He believes in Santa
Stage 2 - He does not believe in Santa
Stage 3 - He has to become Santa
Which stage are you in now?**
[/quote]
fact finder there are two categories of people here in bombay lingo 1)yeda =mad
2)shana = clever
and 3)ded shana =1/1/5 clever or oversmart
which category are you in?
[This message has been edited by kabir (edited January 03, 2002).]