Christian Jihad

http://abc.net.au/religion/news/fr-christianjihad.htm

Christian Jihad

** Dayna Curry and Heather Mercer are the two Americans recently released by the Taliban after being held and tried for spreading Christianity in Afghanistan. They are usually referred to in the media by the unassuming title “aid workers”, but in fact they’re part of a wider network of Christian groups in the US whose primary mission is aggressively to spread the gospel in Islamic countries. **

These groups are well-organised, highly motivated and not short of cash. ** In addition to Shelter Now - the group that sent Curry and Mercer to Afghanistan, along with Australians Diana Thomas and Peter Bunch - they include Youth With A Mission, the Southern Baptist Convention, and the 10/40 Window group, who see their principal targets as the countries between ten degrees north and forty degrees south of the equator - what they call “The Resistant Belt”, incorporating “billions of spiritually impoverished souls”.**

Since their return to the US, ** Dayna Curry and Heather Mercer have admitted that they were, in fact, spreading Christianity among their Afghani hosts, and it appears that their efforts were part of a concerted push by American evangelical groups to wage “spiritual warfare” against the unconverted followers of Muhammad ** - a campaign that has acquired a whole new set of meanings since the attacks of September 11th .

Deborah Caldwell is the Senior Religion Producer at Belief.net, and she’s been documenting this phenomenon for some time. ** She calls this military-style campaign a “Christian jihad”, and she’s talking to David Rutledge about its evangelical holy warriors.**

Deborah Caldwell: I think these groups are all in touch with each other in some way or another, I think the Internet has absolutely accelerated that. There are discussion groups that they can get on to - I mean, ** I ran across one website in which one man was basically acting like a broker, to help people smuggle The Jesus Film into Muslim countries, and he had set up some kind of network in which to do that, and he was connected with all of these various Christian groups.**

So, is there some kind of ‘Command Central’? No, but do they all know each other? Absolutely, yes.

David Rutledge: And Shelter Now estimate that ** they’ve distributed Christian material to some 334 million Muslims. ** Do you credit that claim?

Deborah Caldwell: To be honest with you, the guy I interviewed who gave me that figure was somewhat disappointed that they didn’t have more missionaries overseas in Muslims countries, and that they hadn’t evangelised more. So I actually think that the figure is probably pretty accurate.

When they say “evangelise”, the thing to keep in mind is that it’s the “carpet-bombing” approach to evangelism. Because they count when they’ve given out a tract, when they’ve shared the Jesus story, when they’ve shown The Jesus Film - and they’re relentless about this, so I think it’s possible that if they can trek it into somebody’s house somewhere out in the middle of nowhere and get a group of villagers to watch it, then they can tally that up as part of their total.

David Rutledge: They’re also saying that the ** number of missionaries in Muslims countries has quadrupled since 1990.**

Deborah Caldwell: Exactly. And that’s because of a concerted effort; it actually has a millenarian streak to it, aiming at the year 2000.

In 1989, a group of people got together and decided that they were going to try to spread the Good News by the year 2000, ** and they gave themselves this 10-year window in which to do it.** And the Southern Baptist Convention got involved in this - that’s the largest Protestant group in the United States, with 15 million members - they completely reconfigured their international mission in service of this goal.

But I think that towards the end of the 1990s, it got more intense toward Islam and Muslims, because they began to see them more as a political threat.

David Rutledge: ** I’ve heard that there are seminary programs in the US devoted to training specifically for ministry to Muslims, is that right?

Deborah Caldwell: That’s exactly right; there’s a seminary in Fort Worth, Texas, that has such a program.** And they try to do two things: they are (they say) training evangelical Christians to “understand” their Muslim neighbours, and in the United States, the number of Muslims is estimated as between 3 million and 8 million. It’s definitely a growing group of people, and before September 11th, a lot of Americans thought, “oh, this is really interesting, we’ve got this large group of people and we don’t really know that much about them”.

And I think there was some of that going on with the Southern Baptist Convention, they genuinely did want to try to help equip their ministers to understand Muslims and therefore help their own parishioners to understand them. But part of it was also wanting to figure out ways to evangelise specifically to Muslims.

David Rutledge: Well, 2001 has certainly brought its own unique opportunities: a spokesman from one of the evangelical groups - ** Word of Hope - thinks that the involvement of Muslims with September 11th has “weakened the faith” of many other Muslims, and that this presents a golden opportunity for Christian groups to spread the gospel.** Do you think there’s a sense among American Muslims that their faith has been weakened or compromised?

Deborah Caldwell: To be honest, no. I talk to lots of Muslims as well as Christians, and I don’t think their faith is any bit weakened by this; ** I think in some ways their faith is strengthened. **

Some of it is just - as it would be for any of us - a sort of sad defensiveness. But a lot of them are trying to delve deeper into their faith, to figure out what it is that’s essential, at the core of Islam. Because I think they feel a need to defend it, and so they need to know it as well as they possibly can. They’ve probably got tons and tons of Christian neighbours who are asking them “what’s going on with your faith?” So the discussion boards on our website really don’t reflect a loss of faith at all; they reflect Muslims being very “out there” about defending their faith.

David Rutledge: Can you tell me about how these Christian groups operate - we know that they’re placed in situations where they can not just get jobs in Islamic countries, but where they can make friends and win the trust of local Muslims - ** and these are known as “tunnelling” techniques.** Can you tell me more about them?

Deborah Caldwell: They tend to be very secretive about their techniques - and they’re right; if these people are found out, then their lives are endangered, just like Dayna Curry and Heather Mercer’s were.

But some of the things I have heard are that ** American Christians will get themselves admitted to a university in one of these countries, ostensibly to study something unrelated to religion. Then they will establish relationships with local people, and then maybe invite a couple of people over to their house, and the next thing you know, they’re putting the video of The Jesus Film into the VCR, or they’re handing over some tracts written in the local language that they just happen to have, or they’ve got the New Testament in the local language.**

David Rutledge: Heather Mercer and Dayna Curry have admitted that 20% of the Taliban’s charges against them were valid. So what was that 20%, what did they do as evangelising Christians in Afghanistan?

Deborah Caldwell: My understanding is that they went to someone’s house, and they showed The Jesus Film. And they say that they just happened to be talking about their faith, because that’s what people naturally do there, and these people asked them questions about their faith, and asked them about Christianity, and so they just had to answer. And I think they also gave a boy a book about Jesus.

David Rutledge: Do you think that Curry and Mercer - or any other people from these organisations - might be a little more uncomfortable now about this kind of approach - not just because of the dangers for proselytising Christians, but because of the danger that it passes on to non-religious aid groups? Is there any soul-searching among evangelical groups about their methods?

Deborah Caldwell: I think before they were released by the Taliban: no, I don’t think there was any soul-searching about it. But I’ve heard recently that this is now starting to become a conversation among evangelicals here in the United States.

Partly because they’re putting local Muslims in danger, partly because they’re putting secular aid workers in danger - and partly, they’re examining themselves and saying “hey, maybe we really shouldn’t be breaking the law”. But I think that the impulse to evangelise is so strong among evangelicals - after all, that’s what they’re all about - that it will be very hard for them not to keep doing that.

David Rutledge: Another thing that worries people about ** this fervent evangelism is that it involves an implicit devaluation of Islam. And of course this was made quite explicit recently by Franklin Graham, who came out and said that Islam was “wicked, violent and not of the same God”. ** How characteristic of these groups is this sort of contempt for Islam?

Deborah Caldwell: I think it’s really characteristic; ** most of these groups are fairly vocal about it. **

** It’s in all of their literature, and I notice on the discussion boards on our website, that there are a lot of Christians who have no trouble saying that Islam is evil, or that it incites people to evil. **

They understand, of course, and will say that American Muslims can be (and in most cases are) completely peace-loving, wonderful people. But that doesn’t mean they think the Muslim faith is OK, because they really don’t. And they’re having trouble with the whole question of pluralism here in the United States, because President Bush has been so open and welcoming to Muslims - and he was like this even before September 11th, he always talked about Muslims in the context of the Abrahamic faiths: Judaeo-Christian and Muslim all together in the same breath. And I know from talking to evangelicals that they’re struggling with that.

David Rutledge: We have to admit that there’s a degree of courage in what they do. But of course since September 11th, the stakes have become a lot higher, and from now on there’s going to be a whole new degree of courage required for this kind of evangelism. Do you think it’s going to make Christian groups bolder or more cautious about what they’re doing?

Deborah Caldwell: I think they’ll be more cautious in talking about it. But it will probably become even more a badge of honour. ** I really see Dayna Curry and Heather Mercer as becoming cult celebrities here among evangelicals. **

I actually think that they’re going to become the next Cassie Bernall- you know the girl; the myth goes that she said “yes, I believe in Christ” and was then shot by Dylan Klebold -

David Rutledge: This was during the Columbine High School massacre?

Deborah Caldwell: Right. And that willingness to stand up for one’s belief is held in incredibly high regard among these people. And especially it’s because Curry and Mercer are very appealing, and because they survived, that I think they’ll become celebrities.

David Rutledge: They’ll certainly become acknowledged as “veterans in the field”, and ** we’ve seen a lot of rather worrying war rhetoric coming from people like Luis Bush, founder of the 10/40 Window group, who’s said that “if we are to storm the enemy’s territory, we must put on the full armour of God and fight with the weapons of spiritual warfare” and so on ** - you’ve gone so far as to call it a “Christian jihad”.

Deborah Caldwell: Exactly. They call this “spiritual warfare”, and they consider it biblical and holy. And I think they’ll go on doing that; they hold this sort of aggressive Christianity in such high regard.

David Rutledge: It’s interesting, because we’re hearing a lot about the emergence of a radical, so-called “pre-medieval” Islam. And I wonder if this is going to be countered, now, by an equally radical “pre-medieval” Christianity, what you might call a “Roman” Christianity. Like the early Christians, who walked willingly into the lions’ jaws and sang hymns as they met their martyrdom. Do you think this kind of thing is going to be revived?

Deborah Caldwell: That’s a really interesting idea. I think that’s really possible. And I’ll tell you, I think the places where it’s most likely to happen are places like Sudan and Nigeria, places where there are Christians and Muslims together in constant battle with each other. And I mean physical battle, not just getting on Internet message boards and screaming at each other.

They’re killing each other, and I think it’s tragic enough that it’s happening there, and I can’t imagine it happening here yet, but I do think that the rhetoric is going to be ratcheted up higher and higher, and I think that real martyrdom will be glorified wherever it occurs.

Does any one know why Pope John Paul II went to Centeral Asian States Visit right before USA Attack on Afghanistan?

Ibrahim says: Salaams to all

One cannot claim to know for sure since these are secrets of the Vatican state. The smallest state in the world wielding the largest wealth under its hidden pockets actively financing the production of weapons of mass destruction for the return of Christ.

What seems to be taking place is that the Pope has been trying to gather his flock for the great war (as Muslim know it) and had in his tenure made it a point to visit all the nations that are under his foot (the whole world) and by kissing the soil of those lands the Pope is purifying those lands for the return of Christ.

This had been going on for the past 20 years and may go on for another 10 to 20, since they are not sure as to the exact time this millennium ends or begins for the anticipated return of Christ.

In this time frame they had brought all the leaders of the infidels under their control and removed/locked up all the weapons and teeth that the infidels may have phase by phase. Even their wealth and glitter has been siphoned off in these years to remove any teeth that it may give to the infidels.

Who are these infidels?

They are mostly located in the 10/40 window as it is known http://www.ad2000.org/1040ovr.htm

Is not this True that Uzbec government announced its full support to USA by all means as soon as Pope John Paul II finishes his tour to that country?

Ibrahim says: Yes! You have a valid point and that is also the case in many Muslim countries who received envoys ( not necessarily the Pope) and or went down on their knees after the sept 11. for instance even Philippines a catholic country received a 100 million for tagging along and providing false evidence and promoting it in the media that there was a plot hatched by the Muslims to attack WTC

If you think, this is surprising you may be more surprised to learn US WARPLANES ATTACKED TARGETS IN YEMEN

MARIB, YEMEN (Institute for Islamic Research and Studies): Since the morning of Tuesday 18 December 2001, US warplanes have been bombing the Husoun village in Marib, Yemen, situated about 200km South East of Sanaa. The reason for this bombing is due to the refusal of the Ale-Jalal tribe to hand over Mujahideen to the Yemeni Government which was given a list of names by the US Government just before Ramadan began (mid-November 2001).

Was salaam
Ibrahim

Let me attach a recent article concerning Uzbekistan by ININ: -

Note, Uzbekistan has one of the worst anti-Muslim human rights record on the planet, so it is a natural ally of the US. Basically what happens is the US bribes Uzbekistan to work with them to “fight terror” which means crush Islam in plain English. In return, the US will keep silent about Uzbekistan’s horrid human rights record.

Note also the other conditions placed on the “aid.” What will happen is that Uzbekistan will become so dependent on this cash inflow, that they will be forced to do anything the
US tells them to do. In addition, you can be sure Uzbek President Islam Karimov will pocket a few million for himself and his cronies.

** Hypocrites are lining up all over the Muslim world to get the cash and sell out their fellow Muslims, but the also have ensured themselves hell for eternity unless they repent, so they might as well have their good time now, because it will soon be over.**

ININ

Uzbekistan to receive $100 million in U.S. aid for help in anti-terror campaign
The Associated Press

TASHKENT, Uzbekistan (AP) The United States is allocating $100 million in
aid for Uzbekistan for its support of the U.S.-led military operation in neighboring Afghanistan, a U.S. congressman said Saturday. The aid to the Central Asian nation so far has been targeted at military training and ensuring security, but will eventually expand to other sectors, U.S. Rep. Jim Kolbe, R-Ariz., told reporters in the Uzbek capital, Tashkent.

** Kolbe met with Uzbek President Islam Karimov on Saturday and praised him
for being so quick to offer use of an air base for the military campaign
in Afghanistan, saying it set an example for other countries. ** More than
1,000 U.S. troops have been deployed to Uzbekistan since October.

** >In return, Karimov’s government has hoped for aid and an end to criticism

of its human rights record. **

continued at http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20020112_1281.html

Ibrahim, I was not much surprised by all this but I wanted to see if some one else see the same way as I see. Because, to me, Pope John Paul II goes to the other countries, apparently for peace, but actually to pave the path (Christian jihad) for americans and/or for britians so that they can get clear grounds for their ill objectives.

Ibrahim says: salaams to all

Dear Qaasim, exactly what I am saying too, but not so direct or restricting this to only his visit to Uzbekistan since this plan has been in operation for more then 50 years. One should not be surprised for all that is taking place is part of the revelations revealed in the Book of Revelations ( last book of the Bible)

If you go back in time to the past activities on a global perceptive, The partition of countries and appointments of its leaders and kings, the establishment of Israel all had to do with the establishment of the second temple in Jerusalem and the Christian jihad. They are still waiting for the sign one of which is the sacred cow, Only if a Red Heifer is first sacrificed and its ashes used for purification can the plan be successful. Sadly the one they had recently was not the one ( had blemishes) so, the cow hunting is on

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Maybe the cloned one in their desperation, only Allah (swt) knows

Coming to the Pope, even the very appointment of this pope was on
account of the mysterious death of the earlier just elected pope.

Most of all, Only this pope visited the most number of countries in Vatican history and it had all to do the millennium ( Christian jihad for the anticipated return of Christ which will reach feverish peak every 1000 years) and gathering of the flock’s as well as ironing out past differences between Christians for the conquest of the infidels in the 10/40 window

Some other matters that you should consider are

  1. War on Iraq ( foretold in the Bible)

2)the Y2k hype which was timed to create chaos (devastations can be easily blamed on the computer) and the amount of money it generated

  1. the economic collapse of Asia

  2. the sudden changes in leadership

eg: Russia, Indonesia, Pakistan, Jordan etc.

5)the current war on terrorism scam

Ibrahim, you are stepping into very dangerous
subject matter here. The pope is not aligned
with the protestant 10/40 group. If you read
the Bible, not some reinterpretation of it,
you will find some amazing facts. Read it.
The Catholic Church might need to be watched.
The restoration of the temple is not on the
agenda, I think. This is more of a protestant
objective. The wealth of the Catholic Church
is not what you say. Fear the Zionists more.
That is in the Bible. Do not spread these
lies. The pope has concern for humanity. He
went to Central Asia for higher reasons. Do
not insult this man. He does not deserve it.

Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all

Hi Tomasso,

Thanks for the advice; I seem to deal with danger all the time

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

I know that the 10/40 group are protestants just as other groups may be associated with Catholicism. ( just visit Ireland to find out both sides of the picture) Any way I am mostly aware by the Grace of God as what is in the Bible yet it would be interesting to hear from you what exactly that I should know about it.

Ibrahim says: why? Or do you think the Protestants are harmless?

Ibrahim says: without the restoration of the temple there can be no return of Christ. So It is part and parcel of Christian doctrine immaterial of the denomination. And is encouraged and actively promoted by Zionists although they have their own agenda, once they have their way and achieved the construction after the desecration and demolition of the Muslim sites, the Christians will be branded as gentiles and given the boot.

Ibrahim says: that would be an under statement when you understand that the Catholics have a hierarchy and existed before the protestant movements and they have been collecting tithes and they still siphon off a major part of the collections globally to Vatican treasuries.

Ibrahim says: buddy, I fear Allah (swt) more, not man or jinn and mankind or jinn can only harm me in the body and cannot touch my soul, not here not ever.

Ibrahim says : what is in the Bible?

Ibrahim says: what lies are you talking about?

{quote] The pope has concern for humanity.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; sure he does and that is why they remain silent when the killing is done by their flock for their cause but send in the aid workers and human rights activists to cry foul when their flocks are being persecuted.

Ibrahim says: care to enlighten me more as to the higher reason, I am always willing to learn things which I did not know in the past. As to what he deserves you are right, only Allah (swt) knows that, but yet we have eyes to see and ears to hear and we have witnessed the double standards once too often.

Best regards
Ibrahim

** If clouds remain in the mind, water will fall from the eyes. **

[quote]
Originally posted by TOMASSO:
Fear the Zionists more.
That is in the Bible.

[/quote]

Dear Tomasso:
Can you please tell us that why would a Muslim fear the Zionists more? While history tells us different story.

Muslims never had any Holocausts done. Muslims never massacre Jews in Mass.
Holocausts (which I doubted ever happened but if the history of Holocausts is true then) were great acts of Great and peaceful Christians, not the Muslims and also it was Christians who killed Jews in Mass during both WWs and cut them into pieces like sheep.

In my view, Christians should be the one who should fear the Zionists more because if Christians think that Jews have forgotten the Holocausts and mass killing during WWI and WWII, then they are just non-sense.

**
[quote]
The pope has concern for humanity. He
went to Central Asia for higher reasons. Do
not insult this man. He does not deserve it.**
[/quote]

We do respect him as Christian leader but my friend, it is not only one person in the world who doubts Mr. Pope's so called peace visits, there are so many.

[This message has been edited by Qaasim (edited January 14, 2002).]

The Nazis were pagans. The triumph of the will is not the submission to God. They were
anti-Communists, so they fought the Godless
Communists so they could not move further
into Europe. The protestants are not aligned
with Catholics per se. Ibrahim, what proof do
you have the Catholic church is involved in
the procurement of arms anywhere? This is a
lie. Christianity by it's creed does not
stoke war. The crusades have been over for
a long time. I know Ibrahim is an Imam. I am
not a scholar of religion, but see where you
are taking this. You are anticipating a war
between religions having the final solution.
This is interesting. If you are looking for
the return of The Son of God, does Islam say
that the temple must be restored? As regards
the Pope's visit to Kazakhstan, he went to
speak to the Catholic population there. There
are many fanatical muslims in the region. He
also went to talk peace. He was invited by
Nazarbayev.

Ibrahim says: Greetings of peace to one and all

Hi TOMASSO!,
The Protestants are called protestants because they are in dispute with the catholic dogma BUT they together with the Catholic Christians also follow the same bible and have the same prophesies. So they will have to play the game as per their sacred texts.

Now Kindly read the Book of Revelations for knowing what game they have to play.

Ibrahim says: wait a minute can you tell me where I said the catholic church is procuring arms . Now since that is settled. Just check the budget of the Christian countries and see what they are allocating yearly for defense. Why such a requirement for countries like US, England, Nato etc. Ask yourself who is involved in producing weapons of mass destruction in this planet. When their enemy is?

Do the research on who is financing companies involved in the production of weaponry. Also read

  1. Vatican billions ISBN 0-937958-16-6 by Avro Manhattan

  2. 50 years in the church of Rome ISBN0-937958-21-2 by Charles Chiniquy

Ibrahim says; To you it must be but not to me or the Christians who call themselves protestants and publish the above works.

Ibrahim says: Note according to these texts , Read!

[said Jesus]! [Luk. 19:27] For these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, BRING THEM HERE AND SLAY THEM BEFORE ME.

[Luk.14:26] If any one comes to me and does not HATE his own father and mother and
wife, and children, and brothers and sisters yes and even his own life: he
cannot be my disciple.

[Gal. 2:15] Paul said, “We ourselves, who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners.”

[Gal. 4:22] For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave, and by a free women. BUT WHAT DOES THE SCRIPTURE SAY? “CAST OUT THE SLAVE AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF SLAVE SHALL NOT INHERIT WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN” SO, BRETHREN WE ARE NOT CHILDREN OF THE SLAVE BUT OF THE FREE WOMAN."

If this seems shocking and you believe Christians would not be following these texts kindly visit http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Cyprus/3470/persec.htm
(Summarised from Vlasis Rassias’ book “DEMOLISH THEM..”, published in Greek, Athens 2000 (2nd edition), Anichti Poli Editions, ISBN 960-7748-20-4)

Ibrahim says : My friend, the crusade cannot be over, it will only be over when the Christians discard the Bible and start excepting the truth as to what is being conveyed in the Bible.

Ibrahim says; LOL! you seem to know too much . do you know Imam means?

Ibrahim says: maybe that is the problem, you need to find out what the Bible teaches

Here let me give you more clues.

Rev 6: 11. Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, ** until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed. **

Rev 9: 16. The number of the ** mounted troops was two hundred million.** I heard their number.

  1. The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, ** and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur. **

  2. ** A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths.**

Rev 13: 10. If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. ** If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.**

If you need more feel free to ask!

Ibrahim says : My friend I am talking about the Bible and not what I think or may want to think.

Ibrahim says: feel free to discuss this with the Jews and Christians at your own leisure.

Ibrahim says: I am sure he did exactly as you said

But wait, the pope and church had nothing to do with this ………………

** Ultras burn Buddhist temple in Tripura **

Agartala, April 10: A Buddhist temple and several huts of the Chakma community were ransacked and torched by all Tripura Tiger Force insurgents in Dhalai district of Tripura, police said on Tuesday.

A group of ATTF insurgents raided Taichakma village on Sunday night and ransacked and set ablaze a thatched Buddhist temple, police said quoting delayed reports.

Villagers who tried to extinguish the flames were severely beaten up by the ultras who then set ablaze 13 huts belonging to five chakma families, police said.

** Earlier, insurgents of National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT), which had served a notice in the hill areas last year warning of stern action against villagers who practise any other religion except Christianity, had on December five ransacked a Buddhist temple and took away scriptures and the idol in Almara village of south Tripura district. (PTI) **
http://www.expressindia.com/news/apr10/nation6.html Tuesday, April 10, 2001

or have you heard about…………..

Mizoram has shut its doors to any possible return of over 45,000 Reang migrants who had to flee to neighbouring Tripura and Assam to escape mainly Christian missionary-backed atrocities and forcible conversions

Ibrahim says: If this was done by the Muslims the whole word would know about it , every hour if possible, don’t we?

So much for honesty don’t you think so?

Regards
Ibrahim

“When I said during my presidential bid that I would only bring Christians and Jews into the government, I hit a firestorm. What do you mean?' the media challenged me. You’re not going to bring atheists into the government? ** How dare you maintain that those who believe in the Judeo Christian values are better qualified to govern America than Hindus and Muslims?’ My simple answer is, `Yes, they are.'” ** --from Pat Robertson’s “The New World Order,”

These eastern "christians" are renegades. If
they practice what you say, they are doing it
for other reasons. Christ never commanded to
kill in his name. WRONG version of the Bible,
me thinks. So called christian countries are
secular. They do nothing in the name of religion overtly. Pat Robertson is not one of
the respectable ministers that resides in the
USA. Jesus never instructed us to hate any-
one. We must not love our families more than
God, by His instruction. What does LOL mean?
The interesting part in the Biblical Book to
which you are referring to is about certain
"bad" Jews. Also disturbing is the bit about
the nation(s) that embody evil in commerce. I
did not see the stories alluded to in the first part of my reply. They did not make the
American media. This fact is not surprizing to me. Media blackout does exist here and I
don't like it. I agree any bad behavior on the part of muslims gets different treatment
in the states. I am not in absolute opposition to your point of view, per se. In
fact this ability to converse across cultures
is most intriging. I did not go into these
posts to cause trouble, despite what might be
expected. I have read many posts here and I
have judged you to be well informed in some
areas. Thanks for coresponding.

[quote]
Originally posted by TOMASSO:
These eastern "christians" are renegades. If they practice what you say, they are doing it
for other reasons.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : Greetings of peace to one and all

My friend I cannot change your perception which seems to be based more on your desires and not the reality. Easter Christians ? hmm so they must be western , northern and southern Christians too : ). How about the other 30, 000 (?) denominations, where do they fit in?

The reality is, the Pope was and is silent even though the American (Christians without any valid evidence) have killed no less than 4000 innocent afghan Muslim civilians and continue bombing and terrorizing others with their mighty war machinery claimg it is just? Is it just in Christianity to do that?

For your info the catholic Christians in my on town salvage ( kill them without reason) Muslims with impunity all the time

Read what happens in the Streets of the only catholic country in Asia fashioned in the foot steps of USA.

  1. CASE DETAILS

June 8, 2000, at about 5:30 pm, two male Muslims were accosted in the street by 10 policemen of the Manila Western Police District in one of the the capital's busiest districts, Quiapo. The two Muslims, Esmael Omar, age 36, and Akmad Samid, age 38, were summarily accused by the policemen of being "MILF terrorists" intending "to bomb public places in Manila."

Witnesses say that the two surprised Muslims vehemently denied the accusation and told the policemen that they were in Manila to apply for work abroad. The policemen, however, insisted that the Muslims were "terrorists" and so proceeded to summarily execute them in full view of many witnesses. Reports state that the two Muslims kneeled down pleading innocence and begged mercy for their lives but the same policemen shot them in cold-blood.

Esmael Omar was shot 25 times in all parts of the body while Akmad Samid received 2 fatal shots.

After the brutal shooting of the two Muslims, the police brought their bodies not to the nearest hospital in the district but to one which was farther away in another district. The Muslims were pronounced dead on arrival.

The summary execution of the two in the very heart of Manila triggered massive protests among the Muslim residents of the city as well as human rights groups. Even the mayor of Manila, Lito Atienza, after hearing the testimonies of many witnesses, was aghast at the brutal and arbitrary fashion the police executed the two innocents. The policemen, meanwhile, claim that the two Muslims were killed in a shoot-out and that they were terrorists. Subsequent investigations made by the authorities revealed that the two did not even have powder burns on their fingers and that no bullets were found on the alleged electric posts where, according to the police, they had sought cover during the alleged shoot-out. Moreover, hundreds of witnesses said there was no shoot-out and that the two Muslims were shot while kneeling down.

Meanwhile, relatives of the dead Muslims have appealed to the Philippine Commission on Human Rights to investigate the case thoroughly. A sister of one of the murdered Muslims, Esmael Omar, showed the media and investigating bodies documents which proved that the two were overseas workers who were applying for other jobs abroad. As indicated by the documents, they were on their way home from the job recruitment agency office when they were accosted by the policemen and then shot in a cold-blooded manner.

[quote]
Christ never commanded to kill in his name. WRONG version of the Bible,
me thinks.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: who said Christ said that? But that is what is written in the Bible, are you doubting my quotes? which version of the Bible you want me quote from, and I can quote for you from your favorite version , if that will please you.

[quote]
So called christian countries are secular. They do nothing in the name of religion overtly.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; brother ! I live in a catholic country and the amounts of crimes, rapes, murders, extra judicial killings, kidnappings are mostly done by the Christians but none of it will be published internationally unless it had something to do with Muslims or Islam.

[quote]
Pat Robertson is not one of the respectable ministers that resides in the
USA.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; have you heard of the crusades and witch burnings in your life time, guess who were behind them?

[quote]
Jesus never instructed us to hate any-one.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: that is an erroneous statement for all prophets were commanded to teach their followers to hate evil. And Christ in particular came to separate the good Jews from the evil Jews.

Read, Romans 12: 9. ** Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.**

[quote]
We must not love our families more than God, by His instruction.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: kindly find out How Christ lived in Qumran and how that community ensured only the true believers will be part of that community and not anyone else. For your info any person who wanted to be his follower had to undergo a two year trial period, living in separation in caves only after this two year trials one is allowed to the fellowship of Christ. Where he had to renounce all worldly possessions to the community and become part of the community.

[quote]
What does LOL mean?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: “laughing out loud” Meant your remark sounded funny.

[quote]
The interesting part in the Biblical Book to which you are referring to is about certain "bad" Jews.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: can you tell me when in history of the Jews or Israel there had 200 million troops or does it not seems realistic to you that the Christian world order of today can reach this figure. ?

Rev 9: 16. The number of the ** mounted troops was two hundred million.** I heard their number.

Ibrahim says: When in history did the Jews kill a third of mankind after Christ ?
18. ** A third of mankind was killed ** by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths.

Hence this prophesy is concerning the Armageddon that Christians are preparing for. And some Muslims are also aware of.

Regards
Ibrahim

[This message has been edited by Ibrahim (edited January 17, 2002).]

The reality is that nowhere else in the world
that I know of do people fight organized as
Christians, except for the East. The Phalang-
ists were not sanctioned by the Pope. Have
these Christians been suckered into a fight?
The Pope does seem to be silent on the issue,
though. America does not equal Christianity.
There may be the moral majority's influence.
It does not fight in the name of religion. It
is separate from this by law.
Obviously, the two Muslim men should have had
a proper trial in Manila. The criminals that
you speak of have committed sin, if these
accusations are true. Crimes are against God
and man. The Puritans and crusaders do not
have the respect of Christians today. Muslims
and Puritans have some things in common, tho.
Jesus commanded us to love our enemies and to
help those evil ones to come around to the
right way. It is not proven that Christ was
at Qumran. The responsibilty for the nasty
events described in Revelations has yet to be
determined. The breakdown of these things is
to be seen. It may well involve America in a
negative way. Which Bible do you quote from?

Ibrahim says: you do amaze me , TOMASSO! but that is what blind faith calls for doesn’t it? So long as it is done by so and so, we can find an excuse but if done by such and such , lets expose them and hang them

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Ibrahim says: that is not Christian like is it? Killing others unjustly is approved in what religion?

Again, forgetting something? Find out what they ( Pope and Christian Missions) had to say about the holocaust as it is better known when it was taking place.

Or why

The Vatican has ** quietly issued new rules for Roman Catholic churches around the world to deal with pedophile priests,** saying they should stand trial in secret ecclesiastical courts.

Pope John Paul and the Vatican issued two documents on the problem in 2001, but they were not presented at press conferences or made public as is usually the case for such documents.

Instead, they were published in Latin without any fanfare in the latest yearly volume of “Acta Apostolicae Sedis,” (Acts of the Apostolic See), the journal of record of the Holy See.

Ibrahim says: But USA does have a majority Christian faith and by virtue of its faith, one should act morally don’t you think so?

Ibrahim says: that was just a glimpse of ** the law of equality practiced in a majority catholic country **

Ibrahim says; who are the current puritan and why would they not be Christians then or now?

Ibrahim says: The religion given by God is meant to be kept “pure” and Muslims are basically the true followers of Christ in most details. So if you did understand the teaching given by the Prophets including Christ, you would have no problem understanding Muslims on the other hand , if you had observed deviated teachings that are found in the Bible and consider political correctness as your path. That would indeed lead you to believe as such.

Ibrahim says: doesn’t seem to be the way Christians are behaving on this planet , does it?

At the same time I feel, you have failed to understand scripture as a whole but seem to be working on selective texts whilst negating others.

Let me give you a clue as to what Islam teaches with this regard too, for your comparison.

Life is sacred….read 17:33

** Nor take life which Allah has made sacred except for just cause.** And if anyone is slain wrongfully We have given his heir authority (to demand Qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life: for he is helped (by the Law)

Retaliation not favored …read 5:45

43 We ordained therein for them: “Life for life eye for eye nose for nose ear for ear tooth for tooth and wounds equal for equal.” ** But if anyone remits the retaliation by way of charity it is an act of atonement for himself. ** And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed they are (no better than) wrong-doers.

Revile NOT at false teachings…read 6:108

** Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides Allah lest they out of spite revile Allah in their ignorance. ** Thus have We made alluring to each people its own doings. In the end will they return to their Lord and We shall then tell them the truth of all that they did.

Forgiveness ……. Read 2:109

109 Quite a number of the people of the Book ( Jews and Christians) wish they could turn you (people) back to infidelity after ye have believed from selfish envy after the truth hath become manifest unto them; ** but forgive and overlook till Allah accomplish His purpose;** for Allah hath power over all things

Forgiveness …duty of believers …read 42:37

37 Those who avoid the greater crimes and shameful deeds ** and when they are angry even then forgive **

Forgiving unbelievers …read 45:14

14 ** Tell those who believe to forgive those who do not look forward to the Days of Allah: it is for Him to recompense (for good or ill) each People according to what they have earned**

God forgives …read 53:32

** Those who avoid great sins and shameful deeds, Only (falling into) small faults–verily thy Lord is ample in forgiveness.** He knows you well when He brings you out of the earth and when ye are hidden in your mother’s wombs therefore justify not yourselves. He knows best who it is that guards against evil

Ibrahim says: it will NEVER be proven, because proving such things means causing the self destruction of the Jewish and Christian faith at one go. Find out why the Jews and Christians are vying to get a hold of the dead sea scroll manuscripts and keeping most of it hidden for 50 years now. Even though they used some of it to revise their bibles.

Ibrahim says: thus it is an event that will take place and Christians immaterial of their denomination will take part in this slaughter of the infidels. One third of mankind is a lot of people to kill in the name of Christ, don’t you think so?

Ibrahim says : I normally use the NIV and KJV. Prefer the NIV since it has 100 scholars from all denominations to attest for its translations. But I do have some 14 other versions in my grasp and can quote form any of your choosing.

BTW what denomination of Christianity you are following? Looks like you could be Catholic from the discussions.

Regards
Ibrahim

I am a baptised Catholic. As for how people
act, I would say that the study of Islam is
something that could be done by Christians
to help guide them. It does have some very
positive statements on a sublime level. I am
not advocating total belief in it, but see
some truth and righteousness in it. I know of
NO ONE who would kill in the name of my faith
as is defined by what was written down for us. I mean NO ONE! War existed before man's
current relationship to God. It has been well
addressed by both Muslims and Christians in
their holy books. It is not to be taken very
lightly. Blind faith is quite different from
lack of knowledge. There is a reason I am
involved with a conversation with you and it
involves knowledge, not blind faith. On anoth
er point, there are some Muslims who would drive the Israelis into the sea, out of the
Palestinian lands. I believe they would not
concern themselves in the ethics of the way
they would accompolish this. This is today,
not 1943. The Catholic Church saved Jewish
lives as best it could. If it did not raise
it's voice too high, this was possible. For
your information, I do not have a negative
view about Islams role in the crusades. I
find it perfectly rational as to what was done. Makes perfect sense to me. The bit about the Church's stand on paedofilia, it is
a matter that could be handled by the Church,
or by civil authorities in my view, as it in-
volves both clergy and lay people. These few
who are guilty of this are in violation of
our civil laws too. Not all popes are saints,
nor is every thing they say infallible. I
don't think this pronouncement is put forth as infallible. Obviously, it is not some-
thing to which the Church is looking to give
alot of publicity to. The current pope has
officially appologized for much wrong that
was associated with Catholic history. He is a
great man for that. I feel he did it on his
own. I cannot believe that two major belief
systems deviated to the extent Islam states.
This is highly suspect. I am referring to the
basic geneology for starters. I do not fault
the Jews as much for their belief differences
because there is some basis for this. The
followers of Mohammed are not to blame either
for what they hold true. However, the veracity of Islam is held in question by me.
It is wonderful that the Arabs of old were
made to follow monotheism. That was quite an
accompolishment of your prophet. All this
information is new to me because of events.
Only less than a year into the crux of it, so
far. It is quite fascinating. I mean no dis-
respect. It is hoped this is clear. I wish
you sucess in the greater jihad.

Ibrahim says; Greetings of peace to one and all

Ah… another Trinitarian , I know one too many

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

As to what Islam teaches, I am afraid that is what Christ taught too and so did Moses and all the other Prophets and messengers prior to them. ( peace be upon them all)

Ibrahim says: you are allowed to do that too but like they say all good things must come to an end and at that time you will know why I am a Muslim by choice and not by chance.

Ibrahim says : apparently you are not well versed with the Bible you belief in, so let me give you some clues .

Kindly read:

Numbers 25:4

And the LORD said unto Moses,** Take all the HEADS of the people, and HANG
them up before the LORD AGAINST THE SUN, that the fierce anger of the LORD
may be turned away from Israel.**

Deuteronomy 20:16

But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee
[for] an inheritance,** THOU SHALT SAVE ALIVE NOTHING THAT BREATHETH:**

Deuteronomy 20:17

But ** thou shalt UTTERLY DESTROY them; [namely], the Hittites, and the
Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath COMMANDED THEE:**

Ibrahim says; That is what your Bible says and I feel sad that such things are being attributed to God, but hey, I did not write the bible .and no one is going to listen to me, if I told them that this is false.

Ibrahim says: that’s is very short sighted statement, if I may say so. War came into existence because man became estranged with his brothers and sisters. .War did not exist before mankind was created. God existed before mankind was created and man learnt to disobey God and war with themselves out of envy, pride, greed etc.

Ibrahim says : care to explain?

Ibrahim says : Well sorry If I alarmed you but you have evaded many of the points I raised and carry on believing the pope is humane, which leads me to believe that you are practicing blind faith and not facing the reality. Again sorry , if I had made a mistake in my assessment of your inclination.

Ibrahim says; This is a silly notion, since the Jews, Christians and Muslims lived in peace before the creation of Israel and had no such problem as it exists today due to the creation of Israel by destroying the Palestinian townships and the continuous unabated atrocities of the Israelis backed by the Christians. . The creation of Israel has all to do with the second temple and the Judea Christian dream of Armageddon and the killing of the infidels in the return of Christ.

I am surprised how far you seem to lack knowledge with this regards. Did you know the Christians felt much safer living under the control of Muslims than Jews?

Ibrahim says; apparently you seem to lack much wisdom about this too, the Catholics had good reason not to save the Jews, one only needs to know what is written in the Jewish Talmud to understand how much the Jews hate the Christians and why the Pope will not fully support them but have little choice since they combined the OT with the NT

Ibrahim says: care to explain?

Ibrahim says; you are missing the point , the fact that those who have vowed to spread the good news are grossly in contempt of even simple spiritual teachings. How can a society be guided by them and still maintain its moral values?

Here what I understand is that the Vatican had lost a Billion dollars in laws suits so far in trying to cover up this problem in the churches. So it is obvious they bring this under control and try to keep it under raps. BUT the issue here has more to do with the moral values being imparted by the priests. How can a congregation in their right sense be able to consider them as moral, when they have violated the very sanctity of priest hood by imposing unorthodox teachings and have even allowed gays to become priests too.

The papacy created this problem and the priests due to their vows have been tortured by this inhumane sanctions of the papacy.

Ibrahim says: I hear that too but it seems that was only to selective people and not towards Muslims . I could be wrong, let me know when this pope went around an apologized to any Muslims.

Ibrahim says this is where I have to disagree, from my vantage point and the knowledge God had bestowed on me , I see all this had more to do with achieving the 200 million target and not about being humane. This is basically the return of Christ scenarios we are witnessing and nothing to do with cleaning the slate.

Ibrahim says: care to explain.

Ibrahim says: that could be due to your sole reliance to one source and not looking at the greater picture.

Ibrahim says : feel free to find out, will be happy to explore the veracity that seems suspect to you. With no cost or strings attached.

Ibrahim says: Actually the Arabs as we know it now, were the people who practiced the religion of Prophet Ibrahim/Abraham (pbuh) and what merely took place was the reestablishment of that religion due to its corruption by them and reassignment to another (Israelites) and subsequently returned back to the Arabs due to the corruption of the Israelites and nothing more. That was the promise made by God to Prophet. Ibrahim/Abraham (pbuh)

Ibrahim says: well you have a long way to go and If God so willed you will se the truth, that is if you can maintain your sincerity and not succumb to blind faith. Good luck.

Best regards
Ibrahim

** you begin saving the world by saving one person at a time; save yourself FIRST, all else is politics. **

I would like to know more about the supposed
instructions to Christians to kill infidels
in some future battle. Never heard of it in
my 12 years of schooling. To address every
point you raise would take someone more like
yourself. I will coorespond more, later. I am
more limited in my ability to discuss issues.
I am aware of my capabilties and limitations.

[quote]
Originally posted by TOMASSO: I would like to know more about the supposed instructions to Christians to kill infidels in some future battle. Never heard of it in my 12 years of schooling.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; Greetings of peace to one and all

I am sure they don’t teach everything in schools, in fact I know for sure a priest having spent 12 years in a seminary to qualify as a priest is not fully aware of the Bible and it contents because the bible is a forbidden book to him whilst in the seminary.

My advice would be for you to search the net on the subject of Armageddon, second temple, red heifer, that is IF you have problems understanding the Book of Revelations ( last chapter in the Bible) .

As I said before I know many Catholics, some of them have converted/reverted to Islam in my presence and some of them are priests. They never knew what was written in the Bible even though they had been preaching with it. So I am not surprised you are not aware of such things.

Best regards
Ibrahim