Sadiqan: what do you mean “taught” ..Was it the Quran or the Sunnah?. It is your duty to investigate your religion rather than work on hearsay. Your rejection of both the “opinions”(Faisal’s theory) baffles me >I am really interested which boat are you talking about.
Lets hear it…(sounds like the forth dimension in physics)
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"If anyone slew an innocent person it would be as if he slew the whole mankind and if anyone saved a life it would be as if he saved the life of the whole mankind" (Quran 5:32)
Nothing baffling here, unless you're trying to make things more complicated then they are. No boats, no yachts, just what Allah has commanded of us.
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*Originally posted by underthecross: *
Chachoo: When you give out a statement please justify it according to the teachings of islam. Your opinion will not affect the 2 billion Muslims living on the planet BUT if you can quote an example from the Sunnah and the Quran the Muslims would understand that these views are derived from Islamic ideology rather than your views and experiences in life.
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do you really think that quoting Quran and Sunnah will change the fate and condition of 2 billion Muslims? So what the hell the members of Ummah been doing so far? If 2 Billion Muslims would have been learning from Quran and Sunnah they wouldn't be in this condition that they are in today and you and I won't be arguing on these trivial points... You can quote all verses you want and quote all Ahadith you want unless the audience is willing to learn and understand you are not going anywhere... These people need to connect to humans like themselves and need to talk the same language and understand each other and establish a trust relationship before they pay attention to verses and ahadith and attempt to model their lives per Quran and Sunnah.... when Islam was spread in prophet's time was it just the verses or battles? or was there more that we have forgotten/ignored today?
I had marked allot of Quranic verses , I was going to post …
But…..
Now I think there is no use..All my efforts have been futile, people on both sides are not ready to listen and want to remain confused for as long as possible.
“People who believe in the first opinion quote a one off hadith like “Killing of one innocent is. …Mankind….” and use it to justify their indifferent attitude towards the suffering of the Muslim ummah, whereas you will find hundreds of hadiths that will totally negate this concept under the pretext of Jihad.
The other group of people who follow the second opinion will quote Hadiths like Mr “M” or they will quote “out of context” verses of the Quran to advocate suicide bombings of innocent civilians”
All I was trying to do is prove one of these two sets of people are wrong in their perceptions! (Of course in the light of the holy Quran and the sunnah) but I think people here want to stay in a state of oblivion. Maybe by choosing a boat they will go against everything they stand for or have been taught.
So let the thread stay in this void.
May God guide us all.
CASE CLOSED
PS: Whoever in that bunny suit was passing all those margaritas on the boat , Please pass me one too. Cheers!
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*Originally posted by underthecross: *
The other group of people who follow the second opinion will quote Hadiths like Mr “M” or they will quote “out of context” verses of the Quran to advocate suicide bombings of innocent civilians”
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Maybe you cant read, I didnt advocate suicide bombing nor do I. We were talking about innocent civilians which America so lovingly likes to call collateral damage.
Anyway you obviously have all the answers so good luck to you.
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Originally posted by irem:
in Islam, EACH individual will be judged INDIVIDUALLY by Allah on the day of judgement. religion is a very personal thing for Muslims. Islam is only between a Muslim and Allah. Its not a public movement or a cult.
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It is? then how do you define Ummah? Isn't the concept of Ummah based on Islam? Isn't Islam supposed to be a way of life and if so how can that be personal unless of course you are living in a silo... If it was personal what will you say about tableegh? did you mean to say Taqwa not Islam?
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Yes it is.
Ummah is the collective body of all Muslims. However, on the day of Qayamat, EACH of us will be judged INDIVIDUALLY. If YOU believe that working towards ummah or doing tableegh is the right thing, then go for it and be answerable abt it on the day of judgement. Islam is ONLY between an individual and Allah. The ummah will not be judged collectively.
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*Originally posted by ChaChoo: *
Irem… in regards to your post on PORK becoming Halal and stuff…
Murder becomes Halal in war which is basically killing but killing in the battle ground engaging those who fight you… by killing civilians no matter how oppressed you might be doesn’t earn you any thing in this world or the other.. on the contrary you are making things worse for people left behind (your own people in this case) and you are destroying your akhirat… Such actions are desperate sure, justified or Halal I don’t think so…
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How would you define the concept of "battleground" in the modern warfare of today? At the time of our Prophet (saw) wars were fought in limited physical areas in a very organised manner between two armies.
These days when one country decides to wage war on another by air raids that target the entire civilian population, how will you then define "battleground"?
Chachoo bhai its very easy to sit in America or Pakistan for that matter and say suicide bombers are committing a sin, its another thing to be in their place, without having any other option. If I cannot do something to help them, its atleast best if I don't condemn them and leave it upto Allah swt to judge their actions. Allah swt is the only one with all the answers.
Sorry for replying to every one individually otherwise you and I both will lose track.
I will try to answer some of you who have replied and revert to the conclusion we had reached yesterday.
Irem:I try my level best to sort out things but dear irem comes along and confuses everyone and herself.:D. cause you are not an expert in Quran and sunnah and neither am I try to find some one who is; and justify your statements.
a. The whole question is “Does Islam Allow it or not” and The Quran and sunnah are the best justificationsfor that.
Its not only you but many who have answered have put in personal opinion’s with some weird justification that fits appropriately with their way of life.
b. And I don’t agree with that “empirical theory”.
c.You cant have similitude’s between pork being halal in desperate situations and suicide bombings .firstly one is about saving a life and the other about taking it. Secondly according to this supposition you will be able to justify many wrongs.
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There is no confusion here sister UTC. All I'm saying is:
We do not know the whole truth and it would be premature to make any choices. There is no need to make any choices regarding a third party either as we are only responsible for our own actions.
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*Originally posted by underthecross: *
All I was trying to do is prove one of these two sets of people are wrong in their perceptions! (Of course in the light of the holy Quran and the sunnah) but I think people here want to stay in a state of oblivion. Maybe by choosing a boat they will go against everything they stand for or have been taught.
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There's no state of oblivion here sister. Its a very conscious choice of mine NOT to join any of the two boats you have constructed b/c I have my own boat which I elaborated upon in this thread. Who says that joining one of your boats is the ultimate criteria to proving that one is clear on their beliefs?
[quote]
Ummah is the collective body of all Muslims. However, on the day of Qayamat, EACH of us will be judged INDIVIDUALLY. If YOU believe that working towards ummah or doing tableegh is the right thing, then go for it and be answerable abt it on the day of judgement. Islam is ONLY between an individual and Allah. The ummah will not be judged collectively.
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Ummah is nothing but another name used for the most commonly used term TEAM. It is one heck of team but it is the same concept. Team has goals and players. So if the creator of a team sets a goal for the team and if the team fails who is responsible? Team ! … yes on further analysis the creator/in charge of the team might decide to punish a few or a bigger lot for poor performance and for failing to achieve the goal but result is team was responsible and team failed hence team’s fault, so no bonus for the team and actually their might be repercussions for everyone in the team. Now what makes up the team and how you maintain it and how you work it is a separate discussion. But bottom line is team should be held responsible for team’s actions and results.
What you are referring to is “aamaal” or “deeds” that an individual will be responsible for. Just like at work your performance is evaluated individually and part of your performance is judged based on how well you contributed to the team and how much role you played in success or failure of the team. But there are other individual factors that are looked at outside of team as well. So I am not disputing that but it is NOT just your own “deeds”.
That is why I said “Taqwa” is between a Muslim and Allah (SWT) not ISLAM. If Islam was just between Allah (SWT) and an individual you will not have the concept of Ummah/team.
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How would you define the concept of "battleground" in the modern warfare of today? At the time of our Prophet (saw) wars were fought in limited physical areas in a very organised manner between two armies. These days when one country decides to wage war on another by air raids that target the entire civilian population, how will you then define "battleground"?
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I wish I could answer your question on what the concept of new “battleground”. But you do answer your own question here. War is between “two armies” not an army and civilians. Collateral damage is inevitable these days using the weapons that we have today so caution must be exercised when these weapons are used. I am by no means an expert on this subject matter in terms of Islam’s ruling on this. But as a common man all I can say in some cases collateral damage is unavoidable with modern warfare hence extreme precautions should be taken. Now to paint deliberate attacks on civilians of any race or religion as collateral damage is just wrong.
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Chachoo bhai its very easy to sit in America or Pakistan for that matter and say suicide bombers are committing a sin, its another thing to be in their place, without having any other option. If I cannot do something to help them, its atleast best if I don't condemn them and leave it upto Allah swt to judge their actions. Allah swt is the only one with all the answers.
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Shame on us if we cannot help them. We have absolute right to judge them and that is why Allah (SWT) gave us the brains, guidelines, and challenged us to put it to work and think and make decisions and act upon them. We can’t just give up. Let me try to explain this with an example. A person who is suicidal due to issues in life is miserable and wants to kill himself and wants to take down some more with him/her. Would you just sit back and feel sorry for him/her or would you using your objective point of view try to knock some sense into him/her or at the very least condemn it? You can help him/her by making them realize that the solution which they have in mind is first Haram and second it will do no good to anyone. Next step will be to help him/her with their issues. Keeping quite in this case would be a crime and you will be asked about this of the day of judgment.
ChaaChoo bhai you’re right abt that. However, the guidelines that we’ve been told to follow regarding this “team” have been told to us directly by Allah swt and His Prophet (SAW). After that, we have to decide what our deeds should be, and we will be judged on those. Whether we have done what we think we should have for this team is important, but each of us might also disagree with what we think is right for the betterment of this team, and Allah swt will judge us abt that. Sure, I will be judged for what I did for the Ummah but I will not be judged for what the Ummah did collectively…so I can only do what I can do…
I hope I’m making my point clear…?
You do have a point there and I agree…but what other options to retaliate do they have? Do they even have ANY other option in the present circumstances…?
Hmmm…Ok, you actually have me logically convinced by these points
:k:
when I think about it I don’t find the strength in me to tell those people that what they are doing, suicide bombing, is wrong…but you are right, its because we are guilty that we are not doing enough to help them…
Anyways, at this point, I’ll leave this thread. Its been a riveting discussion and cleared some things for me too.
I apologise that I was not able to support my views with authentic sources…
Allah o Alim and may Allah swt guide us all aameen
Irem and Chachoo
You people are tempting me to answer your posts
Why O why cant you all leave it be , and say we are non religious like UTC , because our religion is in conflict with our success and way of life? Why this hypocrisy….tsk tsk tsk.
because our religion is in conflict with our success and way of life?
"our" ? "success"? ... you are putting everyone in the same boat again... remember I refused to board your boats...
u r entitled to your concocted notions and I am to mine... if u must please feel free to jump in… hope no one is holding back your keyboard... BTW, I never claimed to be religious or non, that is irrelevant to this discussion.
