Choose Your Boat.

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
1

Dear Muslims and non Muslims

I have been monitoring these open debate threads quite closely now and its about time we put things into perspective.
I am talking from a totally unbiased point of view. A point of view that the Muslims are too scared to accept and the non-Muslims too ignorant to acknowledge.

First of all I would like you to remember two fundamental points of Islam, which are very relevant to the point I am going to make.

  1. Eye for an eye! Islam works on this concept unlike Christianity that works on the principal of “turn the other cheek”
  2. Islam holds an ideology of a Muslim ummah. A Muslim is a brother to the other Muslim whether he belongs to any race, color or country.

In the light of these two points I would like to say that when a Muslim’s land/family or religion is at stake Islam gives him/her the right to retaliate with any means possible. “Any means “ is quite a vague term let me be more precise, lets apply this term to modern warfare.
We lack in technology, Palestinians/Chechens / kashmiris cannot hold the oppressors (non Muslims) army accountable for their actions. They see their families/houses destroyed their children killed on a daily basis. In such harsh circumstances when they are pushed to the wall and have to choose between the Devil and the deep sea, they are forced to choose the only way out and that is; disrupt the oppressor and its helpers daily life their financial infrastructure hit them where it hurts (eye for an eye) and pay the ultimate price of your life. Enjoy the benefits of Martyrdom. Islam puts martyrs at a very high pedestal; they are people who are directly sent to heaven.
Islam also allows other Muslims from different backgrounds to come and join these martyrs and help them achieve freedom (ummah concept).
Islamic history will tell you wars like Badar & Uhad were fought with a small number of men compared to a large army of infidels which you may think of as a suicide mission but the Muslims triumphed and reiterated their claim on the holy land of Makkah.
According to this discourse and keeping in mind the modern day and age you would think that OBL is justified in his views, He thought of the concept of ummah and tried his best to destroy the financial core of the oppressor but his subtle agenda was to unite the Muslims across the globe so that they forget their personal gains and interests and help free Muslim lands from the oppressor’s.
This tactic of OBL went to waste as human instincts and the urge for survival is much stronger than religion. In turn it gave rise to a whole new generation of Muslims that I would like to call pseudo-Muslims (Pick out the points you like in Islam and disregard those that will put your gains or success at risk)

** At this stage I would like to ask the MUSLIMS on this discussion board That please don’t hide under the cloak of hypocrisy stop this façade of condemning things on both sides and coming up with a moderate Muslim approach. Islam’s standing in such situations is very clear its your mind that blurs things for whatever axe you need to grind.Choose your boat**

PS: I am not religious,>>* deleted*<<, so please don’t come up with things like extremist or Mulla or fundamentalist etc. Its just many Muslims on this board try to give concocted justifications so that they can juggle both religion and western oppression at the same time, Please come clean or convince me:)

2

I am a muslim mashallah and I want to be in the boat -

Against western oppression
For freedom of muslims in various areas of the world like Kashmir, Iraq, Palestine and Afghanistan.
Which does not think OBL is the 9/11 plotter or mastermind, being called a prime suspect, which went without hard evidence leading to the Afghanistan war. Not the boat which supports Osama as he liked the September 11th Attacks which i did not.
The boat of Peace and Justice
The boat which calls for the Palestine cause to be addressed but not through suicide bombs but with a solution, giving back the Palestinian land by any means including reasonable force not like Hamas e.t.c.
The boat which regards Jihad as Fard-e-Ain
The boat which can contend with stupid campaigns of America like going to War on the base of 1441.
The boat which re-establishes the Khilifah as the fall of the Khilifah allowed the jews to take over Palestine.
The boat which does think much of nuclear power as much of a force, just as an over exaggeration of a states power.
The boat which cares for everyone in the ummah.
The boat which retaliates when oppressed with a means not at all like guerilla warfare but proper warfare against the oppressors.
A boat which unites the muslims under the khilifah and does not allow things go on in the world without open discussions about them.

3

during the iran iraq war or the iraq kuwait war which boat should have one been on?

P.S. I choose to be on the party boat (leaves Navy Pier at 9 p.m.)

4

You seem to have been effected by the Bush doctrine ‘with us or against us’ :nono3:

5

I applaud this effort UTC, and look forward to seeing the results. That way, we will know which boat to sink/nuke. That is, the boat holding any and everyone who considers the perpetrators of the recent Chechnya attack or the attacks on 9-11 to be martyrs.

BTW, I say this from a totally unbiased point of view.

Please IM or email me when the boat is full.

6

An eye for an eye? Yet our prophet himself said Woman, children and sources of food are to be untouched. We are muslims thus i believe we hold a higher sense of moral values and those should be seen in our actions.

I agree with Stu. Once the both is full call me or IM me. I will personally suicide bomb your boat.

7

Whats that supposed to mean …:konfused:

CM please Facts not Fiction.

8

no one wants to be on the party boat? :confused:

9

Simply put if you have an eye for an eye you are blind after a couple of seconds. A blind man is no benefit to anybody.

Also lets make the distinction between martyrs and suicide. All those who have commited suicide will go to hell. Just as they should. It is not their life to take regardless of what the cause is. Also it would be best if they fought the actual armies and not the people.

I support all these causes but i do not agree with their tactics.

10

I'm all for downing a few margaritas on the party boat. I can always submit the launch codes from there.

11

lunch codes? what is this?.. a mcdonalds party boat?

12

Calm down party people:)
I think in some way you are associating these views to my beliefs! My boat /your boat etc.
I might be an atheist or a staunch Muslim?** I reserve the right to answer that question.** Its just that not only on this discussion board but in real life when I pose this question to a few practicing muslims they do not come up with convincing answers. I was having a hard time understanding their oxymoronic answers that’s why I posted this thread.

Think of me as a third party who wants to understand Islam’s standing under the pretext of modern warfare(when the oppressor is far more capable than muslims) or the muslims should accept that what I have said is correct.

13

If you yourself are not willing to pick a side and stake your claim, what right do you have to expect others to answer this 'question' (I am using the word rather loosely) either honestly or convincingly?

14

UTC, aka "the skipper", if you're anti-religious, unbiased and undecided why the "we" in this statement of yours above?

[QUOTE]
We lack in technology, Palestinians/Chechens / kashmiris cannot hold the oppressors (non Muslims) army accountable for their actions.
[/QUOTE]

Sounds like you have chosen your boat.

15

^ He likes to talk from both sides of his mouth while sailing on his yatch. :)

16

IMHO....depends on where the boat lands is the idea.

I have nothing but sorrow.......

Since you said we were through...

Theres no hope for tommorrow...

Hows the world treating you?

Every sweet thing that matters...

has been broken apart..

All my dreams have been shattered....

How's the world treating you?

17

Quran 005.045 -- We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

So turn the other cheek or slap the cheek of the one who did you wrong is up to you decide, Islam gives you the choice. Also don’t forget there is a prescribed way to seek punishment no where Islam advocates to pick up arms and kill the accused or the innocent. Accused has to be proven guilty before punishment is served.

[quote]
Islam also allows other Muslims from different backgrounds to come and join these martyrs and help them achieve freedom (ummah concept).
Islamic history will tell you wars like Badar & Uhad were fought with a small number of men compared to a large army of infidels which you may think of as a suicide mission but the Muslims triumphed and reiterated their claim on the holy land of Makkah.
[/quote]

I never knew Uhud and Badar were fought for Makkah…. and before thinking of it as a suicide mission just remember the ruling on suicide in Islam… there is a big difference in these wars and suicide missions… and how did you reach to this definition of “Ummah concept”?

Your boats are made of “concocted” and “ignorant” concepts that you accuse of others…. So I refuse to board any of your boats… I would rather join Fraudia in his party boat.

18

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by ChaChoo: *
*Quran 005.045 -- We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

So turn the other cheek or slap the cheek of the one who did you wrong is up to you decide, Islam gives you the choice. Also don’t forget there is a prescribed way to seek punishment no where Islam advocates to pick up arms and kill the accused or the innocent. Accused has to be proven guilty before punishment is served.

I never knew Uhud and Badar were fought for Makkah…. and before thinking of it as a suicide mission just remember the ruling on suicide in Islam… there is a big difference in these wars and suicide missions… and how did you reach to this definition of “Ummah concept”?

Your boats are made of “concocted” and “ignorant” concepts that you accuse of others….
[/QUOTE]

very good reply chachhoo.......

Speaking of prophet Mohammed PBHU by underthecross without having sufficient knowledge of Islamic history is nothing but a mere distortion of Islamic history. if you really want to refer to badar and uhad, then lets start from the beginning. Do not forget that for almost 12 years prophet Mohammed stayed in Mecca facing atrocities of Kaffirs and yet he never ever allowed any of his follower to escape in mountains and start attacking poor or innocent people, kids or even kaffirs ….Yes or No ? For almost a decade each and every Muslim in Mecca was tortured by kaffirs but did we ever see any one of them reacting the way today’s so called mujahidin are reacting…Yes or No? On the contrary, Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) always pledged his followers to be patient and wait for the right time to come. And finally the right moment came. Enough Muslims had accepted the Islam after 10 years of hardships but prophet Muhammed (PBUH) decided not to start the war and asked muslims to migrate to Medina where local environment was more favorable for Muslims. What exactly Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was achieving by taking all these important geo-political and strategic steps? Of course he was making sure that Muslims should not engage themselves in a useless war until and unless they are strong enough. Can we muslims of today learn some lessons from Prophet Muhammad’s strategic steps?

In battle of Badar, though Muslims were far less than kaffirs but it was still a ratio of 1 to 3. Prophet Muhammed would have never engaged his followers for a suicide mission (naooz billah) as suggested by underthecross. It was a well planned and calculated step by prophet Muhammad PBUH. After migration on to medinah, Rasoolullah (saws) had encouraged the Muslims to oppose the Quraish caravan which was returning to Mecca from Sham. Muslims went out with 300 and some soldiers, not intending to fight but only to overpower them. The caravan escaped, but Abu Sufyan had already sent word to Quraish kaffirs to come and protect it. The Quraish marched with enormous army of 1000 men and that led to battle of badar.

In third war ( Gazwa Khandiq), when thousands of kaffirs from whole Arabic land attacked medina to invade it, prophet Muhammad was again strategic and instead of facing them in open ground he decided to dig a deep ditch around the city to defend it. The move was extremly successful and kaffirs who were almost 5 times more than muslims kept on sitting outside the city for a long time and finally returned back to tribes. Again and again, Prophet Muhammaed (PBUH) showed to all of us that the best strategy is not to engage in meaningless clashes but to prserve your energy for the right time. First, Make yourslef strong enough and then face your enemy. Finally when Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) realized that now muslims are strong enough he decided to march towards Mecca and this time Mecca fall for him without any war.

In addition througout his whole life, he had extremely strict instructions to protect animals, birds, plants, trees, kids, women and old people during the war. So if u really want to follow prophet Muhammad’s life , I guess u can easily chose which boat u want to sit in.

19

Re: Choose Your Boat.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by underthecross: *
We lack in technology, Palestinians/Chechens / kashmiris cannot hold the oppressors (non Muslims)
[/QUOTE]

if 'muslim' is used, then 'jews,christians,hindus' should be used too..
stop using 'non-muslim'....
it should read
"We lack in technology, Palestinians/Chechens / kashmiris cannot hold the oppressors (jews,christians,hindus)

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by underthecross: *
.Choose your boat*
[/QUOTE]

the one which chachoo n fraudia are on..

20

can people tell me why was the prophet :saw: going to attack a trade caravan when those people not going for war? so were those traders not “innocent” civillians too? was prophet of allah :saw: not targetting a purely trade convoy which contained no warriors? ponder on that before criticizing any mujahid who fights today.
secondly, do you know why the deal about returning of the muslims from makkah back to their captors in the pact of hudaibia was cancelled at the request of makkans? it was due to the fact that since musilms knew they would be returned to their captors, they started to go towards a hiding place near the trade routs of makkans. and soon they had 80 or so men. and they started to attack and kill meccan trade caravans so much so that the makkans asked the prophet :saw: to call those men and declare the point of their returning to makkah null and void.
you see now that the civillian and non civillian catagory is not in islam, all males are legitimate targets unless they are too old or are monks.