Choose Your Boat.

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
81

BTW guys

we all know PORK is HARAAM in Islam.

But, if a Muslim is about to pass out of hunger and the only food avlbl is pork, it actually becomes MANDATORY for him to eat it to save his life.

dont know the source of this but ive heard this commonly.

in such a case, can we project this onto other haraam actions like murder being justified for survival? [haram action = suicide bombing and killing of innocent civilians, survivial = survival of palestinian nation]

on one side:

how CAN it be OK to kill innocent cvilians?

on another:

what other MEANS of fighting back do those poor helpless ppl have whose relatives are being killed, whose homes are being bulldozed?

and the price they r paying is not low: they give up their own lives in the process of the bombing.

82

STU one more thing:

in Islam, EACH individual will be judged INDIVIDUALLY by Allah on the day of judgement. religion is a very personal thing for Muslims. Islam is only between a Muslim and Allah. Its not a public movement or a cult.

so on the day of judgement, Allah swt will know whats in the hearts of two different ppl.

maybe one person who did action A will go to heaven

and another who did the same action will go to hell

bc it also depends on their individual feelings/motivation/circumstances etc

so a person will ONLY be answerable for HIS or HER actions.

:)

83

Irem, the reason I call them Islami fanatical terrorists is because they invoke Islam for every terror act they commit and when you see Kalma clad green bandanas on their foreheads, and praising Allah for every innocent they kill (did you see the videos of decapitations, they could be heard as saying Allah O Akbar while doing the lowest of acts not even an animal would commit – only lowlife animals commit such acts) what do you expect people to call them? I wonder if any of these suicide bombers are atheists? They are very proud of being a Muslim and they see their fight as Jihad, therefore they fit my criterion of referring to them as Islami fanatical terrorists - if they uttered Ram Ram, I would call them Hindu fanatical terrorists. You can call them whatever you wish. Who am I to deny them their right to be a Muslim?

84

Madhanee, hmmm ok, I do get you there.
Lets say though that someone does commit a terrorist act in the name of Islam. Even then, atleast we, you and I, being Muslims should try our best to respect Islam and refer to them just as "terrorists" and not "Islamic terrorists". If we, being Muslims, our ownselves start using the phrase "Islamic terrorists" and associating our religion, the word ISLAM, with TERRORISTS, I think it would not just be a disloyalty and disrespect to our religion but also give the license to some ill-meaning enemies of Islam to misuse the word ISLAM and associate it with other negative words, God forbid. We should have more self respect regarding our religion imho.

Just for a second think of the connotations of this phrase: "Islamic terrorist" Do you think it sounds right? decent?

"Who am I to deny them their right to be a Muslim?"

I'm not saying deny them their right to be a Muslim by calling them non-Muslim. However, by affixing their proclaimed religion, which is an unrelated part of their identity in this context, to their terrorist act, when referring to them is not right either. Why do we need to call them Muslim or non-Muslim? They are terrorists, just terrorists.

85

Irem, I don’t see it as you see it. I have no problem calling Jewish Fanatical Terrorists to those who want to expel all Arabs from Israel, there are Hindu fanatical terrorists committed to rid India of non-Hindus, and so on. My calling them what they are does not make Judaism or Hinduism any less of a belief system. However, I wish I was that powerful – there are some religions that I really really want to destroy.

86

Hmmm. OK. I personally cannot help being offended when I hear the term "Islamic terrorist" but you seem to have your logic behind using that phrase, and you're not answerable to me but to Allah, so I guess I should tell myself to be more tolerant and not get upset when I hear it.

salams

87

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by irem: *
in Islam, EACH individual will be judged INDIVIDUALLY by Allah on the day of judgement. religion is a very personal thing for Muslims. **Islam is only between a Muslim and Allah*. Its not a public movement or a cult.
[/QUOTE]

It is? then how do you define Ummah? Isn't the concept of Ummah based on Islam? Isn't Islam supposed to be a way of life and if so how can that be personal unless of course you are living in a silo... If it was personal what will you say about tableegh? did you mean to say Taqwa not Islam?

Irem… in regards to your post on PORK becoming Halal and stuff…

Murder becomes Halal in war which is basically killing but killing in the battle ground engaging those who fight you… by killing civilians no matter how oppressed you might be doesn’t earn you any thing in this world or the other.. on the contrary you are making things worse for people left behind (your own people in this case) and you are destroying your akhirat… Such actions are desperate sure, justified or Halal I don’t think so…

88

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Madhanee: *
However, I wish I was that powerful – there are some religions that I really really want to destroy.
[/QUOTE]

Issi liya... Allah (SWT) Ganjay ko nakhun nahin deeta :p

89

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by irem: *
BTW guys

we all know PORK is HARAAM in Islam.

But, if a Muslim is about to pass out of hunger and the only food avlbl is pork, it actually becomes MANDATORY for him to eat it to save his life.

dont know the source of this but ive heard this commonly.

in such a case, can we project this onto other haraam actions like murder being justified for survival? [haram action = suicide bombing and killing of innocent civilians, survivial = survival of palestinian nation]

on one side:

how CAN it be OK to kill innocent cvilians?

on another:

what other MEANS of fighting back do those poor helpless ppl have whose relatives are being killed, whose homes are being bulldozed?

and the price they r paying is not low: they give up their own lives in the process of the bombing.
[/QUOTE]

Pork is only allowed if a person will die without eating it as it is the only edible thing around and even then it is not allowed excessively, only the amount that will keep someone going until they get proper food.
From this we learn it is a duty for a muslim to save his life.
We and Palestinians should always ensure that we in a position were our life is not in danger except for a cause. That cause can be Jihad as the best Jihad is struggling the utmost using all means to help fellow muslims and to know in your heart that your intending good for yourself and for the muslim community that you are in. Palestinians first concern should be intending good for themselves and their muslim communities and second to have the stongest eemaan possible.

He sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam said:

"Whosoever sees an evil, then let him change it with his hand. If he is unable to do this, then with his tongue, and if he is unable to do this, then with his heart. And that is the weakest of eemaan (faith)."

Man's heart changes constantly, as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) described: "The heart of the son of Adam changes more quickly than a pan of rapidly boiling water." (Ibid., no. 226. Its isnaad is saheeh: Zilaal al-Jannah, 1/102), According to another report: "It changes more than a pot of rapidly boiling water." (Reported by Ahmad, 6/4; Saheeh al-Jaami', no. 5147).

90

According to the Islam that I was taught, killing innocents is wrong, no matter what the situation is. You all can argue about boats all you want. The basic message of Islam still stands despite the propaganda and distortion by both sides.

Excellent point Mr. Ahmed

91

Theres a difference between specifically targeting innocent civilians and innocent civilans being killed in legitemate military operations.

The first one is not allowed in islam at all the second type can be.

Even in that time innocents lost their lives in war, today its almost impossible for there to be any type of conflict without innocent people being killed.

92

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by M: *
Theres a difference between specifically targeting innocent civilians and innocent civilans being killed in legitemate military operations.

The first one is not allowed in islam at all the second type can be.

Even in that time innocents lost their lives in war, today its almost impossible for there to be any type of conflict without innocent people being killed.
[/QUOTE]

Not surprisingly, I have heard the same arguments from Americans justifying their military campaigns.

93

You MUST differentiate between the innocent and the criminal and spare the innocent.
It's not only about morality and common decency!

If we look at this, we wouldn’t allow any way of fighting or bombing, which would kill the innocent and the aggressor, especially from the Islamic point of view.
Allah Almighty says in the Qur'an: “Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, We have given his heir authority (to demand retaliation or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the law).” (Al-Isra’: 33)

94

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by irem: *

But, if a Muslim is about to pass out of hunger and the only food avlbl is pork, it actually becomes MANDATORY for him to eat it to save his life.

what other MEANS of fighting back do those poor helpless ppl have whose relatives are being killed, whose homes are being bulldozed?

and the price they r paying is not low: they give up their own lives in the process of the bombing.
[/QUOTE]

[quote]
thus i feel that we should have the basic teachings of islam in our minds and tru to look at the situation and try to decide based on empirical principles of justice

[/quote]

[quote]
i'm not making any statements about what i think is correct. i'm torn abt the issue, confused, and i dont know whats right and whats wrong in this situation.
[/quote]

Sorry for replying to every one individually otherwise you and I both will lose track.

I will try to answer some of you who have replied and revert to the conclusion we had reached yesterday.

Irem:I try my level best to sort out things but dear irem comes along and confuses everyone and herself.:D. cause you are not an expert in Quran and sunnah and neither am I try to find some one who is; and justify your statements.
a. The whole question is “Does Islam Allow it or not” and The Quran and sunnah are the best justificationsfor that.
Its not only you but many who have answered have put in personal opinion’s with some weird justification that fits appropriately with their way of life.
b. And I don’t agree with that “empirical theory”.
c.You cant have similitude’s between pork being halal in desperate situations and suicide bombings .firstly one is about saving a life and the other about taking it. Secondly according to this supposition you will be able to justify many wrongs.

95

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by skhan: *

Hmm that's a tough one. To remove that word would mean I am speaking for the Prophet (PBUH), which I don't think anyone on this earth is qualified to do. However, we can compromise :). Let's say I am very sure he wouldn't have endorsed any sort of killing of civilians, but NOT 100% certain as I am not in a position to make that statement. But I don't see how that takes away from the argument, the conclusion you have reached is very valid.

PS. Mind you, I am speaking for myself, not the Muslim Ummah. I can't issue a fatwa or anything :)
[/QUOTE]

Skhan: you don’t need to talk for the prophet, His sunnah will do it for him , you could quote an example as I did and then could say it infers….
No Fatwa needed.:)

96

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ChaChoo: *
Murder becomes Halal in war which is basically killing but killing in the battle ground engaging those who fight you… by killing civilians no matter how oppressed you might be doesn’t earn you any thing in this world or the other.. on the contrary you are making things worse for people left behind (your own people in this case) and you are destroying your akhirat… Such actions are desperate sure, justified or Halal I don’t think so…
[/QUOTE]

Chachoo: When you give out a statement please justify it according to the teachings of islam. Your opinion will not affect the 2 billion Muslims living on the planet BUT if you can quote an example from the Sunnah and the Quran the Muslims would understand that these views are derived from Islamic ideology rather than your views and experiences in life.

97

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sadiqaan: *
According to the Islam that I was taught, killing innocents is wrong, no matter what the situation is. You all can argue about boats all you want. The basic message of Islam still stands despite the propaganda and distortion by both sides.

Excellent point Mr. Ahmed
[/QUOTE]

Sadiqan: what do you mean “taught” ..Was it the Quran or the Sunnah?. It is your duty to investigate your religion rather than work on hearsay. Your rejection of both the “opinions”(Faisal’s theory) baffles me >I am really interested which boat are you talking about.
Lets hear it…(sounds like the forth dimension in physics)

98

Ok we had reached an agreement ……According to the sunnah.

“No civilian life has to be taken under any circumstance”

the proof of that was the idea behind was sulah-Hudabya and secondly another Islamic war call Khandaq=>A trench was dug around the city of Madina when the kaffirs attacked as the Muslims were outnumbered against the large army of kafirs.

In light of both these examples it is clear that the prophet “Reasoned” even when Islam and the Muslims were under threat…..

99

Half the boat seems to have disappeared ..:D

Tomorrow I will be quoting the Holy Quran . The book I am reading is called

The Vision ,Selections from the Holy Quran by Shaikh abdur Rauf.

I would suggest you all do some reading too.

100

Well I cam across a interesting hadith a little while back, didnt want to quote this but you may be interested in it anyway.

Sometimes innocent people get involved, thats war for you. The main difference is specificly targeting innocent civilians thats whats not allowed.

Translation of Sahih Bukhari:
Fighting for the Cause of Allah (Jihaad)
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 256:

Narrated As-Sab bin Jaththama:

** The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, “They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans).”** I also heard the Prophet saying, “The institution of Hima is invalid except for Allah and His Apostle.”
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