Choose Your Boat.

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
41

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by irem: *

STU, its none of my or any other Muslim's business to decide if those people were martyrs of criminals. Its something between them and God. We can hold an opinion, sure, but I think, holding an opinion when you dont know the WHOLE TRUTH (which ONLY ALLAH knows) is pointless.

We are mashallah Muslims and are better than those who want to achieve their purposes by HOOK or CROOK. Islam has told us that there is a RIGHT way to achieve our aims.

HOWEVER, that said, we are no ones to say that suicide bombers are going to hell or heaven? Thats between them and Allah and not for us to say.

This is a confusing issue.
[/QUOTE]

Definitely. Who are we to judge those who gave up their lives for whatever reason. That's between them and God.

42

This has now become quite bizzare. Instead of chosing a boat, you guys are avoiding the whole question by saying "we don't know" and "who are we to decide".

There are generally two kinds of opinions we see on this board (amongst muslim posters).

First opinion
On one hand, we have people who consistently maintain a position that in the present time, all forms of struggle against US, Israel, Russia and India is permitted, because all these nations have launched attacks on muslims. Thus all those who launch suicide attacks and participated in 9-11 are martyrs and 'may Allah bless them with the highest rewards on the Day of Judgement'.

Second opinion
On the other hand, we have people who say that yes, US, Israel, Russia and India are committing crimes against muslims, but there is a way to carry out struggle against them and attacking unarmed and 'innocent' civilians is not the way to go, as this is not what Allah has commanded us, and killing civilians harms the image of muslims and creates more problems for the rest of muslim population. So suicide bombings and 9-11 was wrong.

Ofcourse, avoiding the question altogether is the easy way out.

43

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
This has now become quite bizzare. Instead of chosing a boat, you guys are avoiding the whole question by saying "we don't know" and "who are we to decide".

There are generally two kinds of opinions we see on this board (amongst muslim posters).

First opinion
On one hand, we have people who consistently maintain a position that in the present time, all forms of struggle against US, Israel, Russia and India is permitted, because all these nations have launched attacks on muslims. Thus all those who launch suicide attacks and participated in 9-11 are martyrs and 'may Allah bless them with the highest rewards on the Day of Judgement'.

Second opinion
On the other hand, we have people who say that yes, US, Israel, Russia and India are committing crimes against muslims, but there is a way to carry out struggle against them and attacking unarmed and 'innocent' civilians is not the way to go, as this is not what Allah has commanded us, and killing civilians harms the image of muslims and creates more problems for the rest of muslim population. So suicide bombings and 9-11 was wrong.

Ofcourse, avoiding the question altogether is the easy way out.
[/QUOTE]

Faisal bhai, in fact answering the question without PROPER KNOWLEDGE is the worst thing.

To them their actions, to us ours, isn't that what Islam says?

And I would blatantly condemn suicide bombings, but to be honest, a part of my consience tugs me and says, what IF the people who gave up their LIVES, heard me say that, and what if the sincere intention in their heart was to do it for the ummah, my ummah, would it not be a betrayal to them if i was to outrightly condemn them?

44

They are part of the ummah. You are one body. When one part is in pain, the whole body feels it. How can we distance ourselves from the ummah and say "I don't know what the heck those guys are up to, so I can't comment". This is especially worse, because what those guys do, will impact you directly at some point. Whether it results in your visa being denied or worse, being thrown in jail indefinitely without charge. Many muslims around the world faced the consequences of just being muslims. Whether we like it or not, sooner or later, we have to answer the question, and we have to do it based on what we know, and not by having a peek inside the hearts and minds of suicide bombers. Tough? :-\

45

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Faisal: *
**First opinion*
On one hand, we have people who consistently maintain a position that in the present time, all forms of struggle against US, Israel, Russia and India is permitted, because all these nations have launched attacks on muslims. Thus all those who launch suicide attacks and participated in 9-11 are martyrs and 'may Allah bless them with the highest rewards on the Day of Judgement'.

[/QUOTE]

Not on this boat.

All forms of struggle are not allowed.

Also I can't say to Allah, bless the suicide bombers or don't bless them because I don't know what their intention was. That's between them and Allah.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Faisal: *
**Second opinion*
On the other hand, we have people who say that yes, US, Israel, Russia and India are committing crimes against muslims, but there is a way to carry out struggle against them and attacking unarmed and 'innocent' civilians is not the way to go, as this is not what Allah has commanded us, and killing civilians harms the image of muslims and creates more problems for the rest of muslim population. So suicide bombings and 9-11 was wrong.

[/QUOTE]

Not in this boat either.

"So suicide bombings and 9-11 was wrong."

But saying that suicide bombings and 9/11 was wrong means I condemn suicide bombers, (I quote from my previous post) but to be honest, a part of my consience tugs me and says, what IF the people who gave up their LIVES, heard me say that, and what if the sincere intention in their heart was to do it for the ummah, my ummah, would it not be a betrayal to them if i was to outrightly condemn them?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Ofcourse, avoiding the question altogether is the easy way out.
[/QUOTE]

I didn't avoid the question :) I answered it with my most honest thoughts.

46

what IF the people who gave up their LIVES, heard me say that, and what if the sincere intention in their heart was to do it for the ummah, my ummah, would it not be a betrayal to them if i was to outrightly condemn them?<<<<

I feel exactly the same way about US, which to me is bigger than any Ummah Shumma, and my soldiers who are giving up their lives so we can live in a free and a safe world, a world without Islami fanatics and terrorists. Look what they are doing in Sudan, and where the hell is Ummah… is she anywhere to be seen????

47

Irem,

I believe now we have come full circle on this discussion. The first post wants us to choose a boat. You are not willing to do so, because you feel you don't have enough knowledge. In many cases, unfortunately, the boat is chosen automatically.

48

TOUGH? :smiley: Impossible :hehe: Faisal bhai there was a debate on my MSA email list on this topic which extended for weeks and some very learned people were involved but still there was no final conclusion :smiley:

I’m a very illiterate person with not enough knowledge even about Islam. What can I say?

Still, I’m stuck somewhere in the middle, being unable to decide.

BTW, from what I know, there have been fatwas on suicide bombings right? I’m not sure though what they stated?

49

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Irem,

I believe now we have come full circle on this discussion. The first post wants us to choose a boat. You are not willing to do so, because you feel you don't have enough knowledge. In many cases, unfortunately, the boat is chosen automatically.
[/QUOTE]

Faisal bhai I don't have to do what the first post tells me to do. I have to do what Allah swt wants me to do.

And Allah swt did not make it obligatory for me to make this choice or have an opinion about every single issue in the world without proper knowledge.

I reckon it would be wrong to aver things without knowing properly.

50

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Madhanee: *

what IF the people who gave up their LIVES, heard me say that, and what if the sincere intention in their heart was to do it for the ummah, my ummah, would it not be a betrayal to them if i was to outrightly condemn them?<<<<

I feel exactly the same way about US, which to me is bigger than any Ummah Shumma, and my soldiers who are giving up their lives so we can live in a free and a safe world, a world without Islami fanatics and terrorists. Look what they are doing in Sudan, and where the hell is Ummah… is she anywhere to be seen????
[/QUOTE]

A terrorist can be of any religion or race. What do you mean by "Islami fanatics"? There is no fanatic or moderate or liberal Muslim. A Muslim is just a Muslim, like our Prophet Mohammad (SAW) was.

51

Thats fine. I am not choosing a boat either. I like your reasoning better, though. :k:

52

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
In many cases, unfortunately, the boat is chosen automatically.
[/QUOTE]

If you read Quran there are two groups (boats?) mentioned time and time again 'those who believe' and 'those who disbelieve'.

After all we have to help our muslim brother "whether he is an opressor or is oppressed".

All the muslims will have to be on one and the same boat whether they like it or not.

53

Your definition of 'boat' is a bit different than what I had in mind, but doesn't matter, in the larger scheme of things.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by M: *
After all we have to help our muslim brother "whether he is an opressor ".
[/QUOTE]
This probably deserves its own thread in Religion Forum. I don't want to distract from this, otherwise excellent thread.

54

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by M: *

If you read Quran there are two groups (boats?) mentioned time and time again 'those who believe' and 'those who disbelieve'.

After all we have to help our muslim brother "whether he is an opressor or is oppressed".

All the muslims will have to be on one and the same boat whether they like it or not.
[/QUOTE]

well you're right there are two boats

BUT

there are also many levels in jannah :)

Also, a parallel cannot be drawn between the two boats of believers and disbelievers and the boats being discussed in this thread.

55

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by irem: *

there are also many levels in jannah :)

[/QUOTE]

The levels of jannah part doesnt really make sense, cause then everyone will have their own boat :)

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by irem: *
Also, a parallel cannot be drawn between the two boats of believers and disbelievers and the boats being discussed in this thread.
[/QUOTE]

Irem as muslims we are together we are one ummah, one body, I said it before whether we like it or not we are in the same boat.

How many boats did the original poster intend?, why cant parallels be made?

Anyway I actually think Bush was right when he said you are either with us or against.

56

Weeeeeeeelll I’m NOT with BUSH, thats for sure :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: So whichever boat uncle Bush decides to ride in, can I please get a space reserved in the OTHER boat? :hehe:

p.s. ima hit the sack, KH :slight_smile:

57

And we know whos side Allah :swt: is on.

58

A terrorist can be of any religion or race. What do you mean by "Islami fanatics"? There is no fanatic or moderate or liberal Muslim. A Muslim is just a Muslim, like our Prophet Mohammad (SAW) was.<<<

Irem, sure, a terrorist can be of any religion or race, but at present day in time, it is the Islami fanatical terrorists that threaten our lives more than any other terrorists. (today in jakarta, a few months ago in Bali, and everyday in Afghanistan, and in Iraq, and you name it) When you say a Muslim is just a Muslim, are you saying that Osama is plain Muslim (are you comparing him with Prophet Mohammad)?? What about Yazid? Are you saying that Muslims can’t be terrorists? Do you remember what they did to Danny Pearl? They were ‘Muslims”. And if you refuse to take the blindfolds off your eyes, you may never be able to see the light. Forget about the truth.

59

If there are only 2 boats and Bush is one of them then other boat has OBL, Russian child-killers and truck driver decapitators aboard. You might think twice before crawling into boats with people because "we are one ummah" and "we know whos side Allah is on".

60

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
If there are only 2 boats and Bush is one of them then other boat has OBL, Russian child-killers and truck driver decapitators aboard.
[/QUOTE]

I think you described one boat, not two.