Chengez Baba, your query on Katim being answered here.

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

Chengez Baba wrote in a previous thread about the meanings of Khatim ‘as the last one’, but this thread was closed by the Admin so I could not reply to him:

But if we accept your theory that Khatim-ul Salateen means the one who came in the last, and there will be none else after him, then why the prophet used these words in a Hadith:

O’ Ali you are Khatim-ul-Aulia like I am Khatim-ul-Nabiyeen. On another time he said to Sahaba that this mosque is Khatim-ul-Masajid.

If we agree to your meanings, then Ali becomes the last Aulia in Islamic ummah, and also the Mosque of the Prophet becomes the last mosque in the world. So there should be no more Aulia Allahs, and also there should be no further mosques in the world.

…

[This message has been edited by NMK Hajana (edited June 22, 2001).]

2

it looks like somebody's obsessed with the word Khatim....

[This message has been edited by farhana (edited June 22, 2001).]

3

as ever before... you are ignoring the context... and now you also switched the words "Khatam" with "Khatim"...
decide once for all, do you think they are equal in meaning? or do they differ?

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

4

Changez sahib !!!!

This word is 'Khatam' as written in Quran, and I wrote it by mistake as 'Khatim'. But the meanings of Khatam still stand as I have written previously. It means the seal of Prophets.

If you attribute the meanings to it as 'Last' then it should have been written in the Quran as " Aakhir-un-Nabiyeen".

Please do not insult the prophet by giving him a title of 'the Last Prophet'. It conveys no sense of superiority at all. It's rather like giving a sense of 'least wanted prophet'.....

Please take senses, and do not insult him by giving him these meanings. Hadhrat Ayesh has clearly warned:
**
Say he is Khatam-un-Nabiyeen, but never say he was the Last Prophet. **
(Tukmila Majmaul Bahar, page 85)

Also the Prophert himself said many times about the forthcoming prophets. Why you must deny the Quran and the Hadith.

...

5

[quote]
Originally posted by NMK Hajana:
**

Changez sahib !!!!

This word is 'Khatam' as written in Quran, and I wrote it by mistake as 'Khatim'. But the meanings of Khatam still stand as I have written previously. It means the seal of Prophets.

If you attribute the meanings to it as 'Last' then it should have been written in the Quran as " Aakhir-un-Nabiyeen".

Please do not insult the prophet by giving him a title of 'the Last Prophet'. It conveys no sense of superiority at all. It's rather like giving a sense of 'least wanted prophet'.....

Please take senses, and do not insult him by giving him these meanings. Hadhrat Ayesh has clearly warned:
**
Say he is Khatam-un-Nabiyeen, but never say he was the Last Prophet. **
(Tukmila Majmaul Bahar, page 85)

Also the Prophert himself said many times about the forthcoming prophets. Why you must deny the Quran and the Hadith.

...**
[/quote]

do you have reference to this hadith in Sihah-sitta compilations? do not refer me to Ahmedi books... i don't have'em.

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

6

Chengez Sahib !!!!

I have always been giving the references. Do you read them?

...

7

The word KHATAM, does mean Seal.

In Arabic, the word Seal has 7 different nouns and 8 different verbs.

The word SEAL is a noun in english and has several meanings:

Close
Shut Tight
Confirm
Determine Finally
Official Paper bearing impressed design
Mark of Authority

Plus a sea mammal with flippers!

If you read the Qur'aan, wherever the word seal is used, it is describing the shutting of hearts, faith etc, meaning Closed! and the word Khatam is used.

I'm only being brief here, as I suspect the response and will answer accordingly.

8

Not correct, Sholay.

Where in Quran has this word been used as "shutting" of hearts,faith etc? The words used in Quran are like this:

Khatamallaho Ala Qoloobihim.
Khatamallaho Ala Sam'ehim.
....and so on.....

But not exactly this word as has been used in the verse of Khatam-un-Nabiyeen. Please do not mix two different things together.

However, the holy prophet himself used the same type of wordings in his sayings as of Khatam-un-Nabiyeen:

He said to Ali, I am Khatam-un-Nabiyeen, and you are Khatam-un-Aowlia.

In another saying he said to Sahaba: This mosque is the Khatam-ul-Masajid.

So do you reckon he was telling us that there will be no more Walis in the ummah, or there will be no more mosques in the ummah....????

...

[This message has been edited by NMK Hajana (edited June 22, 2001).]

9

I asked for a reference from “Sihah-sitta” compilations for the hadith you quoted:
**Say he is Khatam-un-Nabiyeen, but never say he was the Last Prophet.
(Tukmila Majmaul Bahar, page 85) **

Please read my responses, as they are response to your messages

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

and when you responded to Mr Sholay …
**Khatamallaho Ala Qoloobihim.
Khatamallaho Ala Sam’ehim… what is translation? elevated their hearts to peak and elevated their listening capability? **

We oughta be Changez like, don’t we?

10

.

[This message has been edited by Insaaniat (edited June 22, 2001).]

11

NMK

Khatamallaho Ala Qoloobihim.
Khatamallaho Ala Sam'ehim.
....and so on.....

The above is what you've stated being in Qur'aan.

Khatam, whether it's the verb, plural, singular, dual, past or continuas tense etc still means Seal.

Each time seal is mentioned, it is referring to Closing, Shutting meaning NOT Open and not any other meaning you may have..

063
evil are their deeds. 063.003 That is because they believed, then they rejected Faith: So a seal was set on their hearts: therefore they understand not. 063.004 When ...

THE COW, CHAPTER NO
whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe. 002.007 Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; ...

036
this Day, for that ye (persistently) rejected (Truth)." 036.065 That Day shall We set a seal on their mouths. But their hands will speak to us, and their feet bear

However, if you disagree, can you please explain what seal means in the chapters of the Qur'aan each time it is mentioned.

12

Mr. Shlay:

What is your explaination of Khatam-al-Awoliah and Khatam-al-Masaajid????

Also tell us Was Hazrat Aaysha wrong when she said, "Say him Khatam-al-Anbiaa but never say that he(PBUH)is Last of Prophets"

Also tell me **that the following type of Arabi Translation of English sentence,

"BahadurShah Zafar was the last of Mughal Empires"** is correct or not???

khatam-al-Salateen min Salateen-e-Mughlia

Mr. Sholay;

We know that the meaning of Seal can be negative or Positive.

You also know that its meanings are also "To Confirm" etc

To "close down" etc is negative meaning of word "seal".
To "confirm" etc is positive meaning of word "seal".

What meaning i.e, negative or positive to be applied should be decided taking into consideration the contaxt of this ayet.

The full ayet states:

Muhammad (PBUH) is not father of any Man BUT He(PBUH) is "Khatam-an-Nabiyeen".

There are two sentences in this ayet which are separated by the word BUT.

These sentences are following:

1- Muhammad (pbuh) is not father of any Man.

2- He is Khatam-an-Nabiyeen.

Both the above sentences are separated by word "BUT".

Whenever two sentances are separated by "BUT", one of the sentences is always NEGATIVE and the other sentance is always POSITIVE OR VICE VERSA.

The main function of "BUT" is to show the other side.

Take following examples:

"I am not a Batsman BUT I am a Bowler."

"Pakistan is not a rich country BUT it has vast potential to become rich."

"I am poor in poetry BUT my knowledge in Chemistry is good."

In above examples:

**
I am not a Batsman
pakistan is not a rich country
I am poor in poetry

**
All are negative sentances but after using the word BUT they all are followed by positive sentences such as "My knowledge in chemistry is good." etc.

The following are wrong sentences:

**
"I am not a Batsman BUT I am not a Bowler also."

"Pakistan is not a rich country BUT it also has no potential to become rich."

"I am poor in poetry BUT my knowledge in Chemistry is also not good."**

The above sentences are wrong because after using the word "BUT" negative sentences are followed by negative sentances instead of positive sentences.

Now come to the point and consider the wording of this ayet.

This ayet is composed of two sentences separated by word "BUT". following are the two sentences:

1- Muhammad (pbuh) is not father of any Man.

2- He is Khatam-an-Nabiyeen.

Sentence No.1 is a Negative sentence. Therefore the sentence No.2 which is used after using the word "BUT" MUST BE A POSITIVE SENTENCE.

So in this case the Positive Meanings of word "Seal" shall be taken.

**And the positive meaning of word "Khatam"
as you also know is "To Confirm."

**

[This message has been edited by babar123 (edited June 23, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by babar123 (edited June 23, 2001).]

13

Hey NMK, and Babar, what about the questions we asked you regarding Mirza Qadiani and what makes him a prophet, Jesus, Mehdi(kinda like christian beliefe of three in one...)? Why aren't you answering those questions?

Word Khatim is easier for you to manipulate into something stupid and illogical which only a Qadiani can understand and is sculpted to understand that kind of stuff.

Sholay, Changes, and others, I suggest you ignore these heretics, arrogant people. They are beyond hope.

14

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by NMK Hajana:

The words used in Quran are like this:

Khatamallaho Ala Qoloobihim.
Khatamallaho Ala Sam'ehim.
....and so on....

Yes.....this is something described about
Kuffar of those days and now fits on qadiyanis of these days.......when Allah has sealed their senses,how they can understand what's right?
So dear muslims let them decide their faith
(on the way to hell)

15

Originaly posted by Abdul Basit:
**
Word Khatim is easier for you to manipulate into something stupid and illogical which only a Qadiani can understand and is sculpted to understand that kind of stuff.
**

.............................................

This is the main problem:

Mr. Abdul Basit;

**You do not even know that the word used in Quran is "Khatam" and not "Khatim"

And for your kind information, it is not only Ahmedies who believe in these meanings.
Following are some references of such well known Muslim Scholars (Who are not Ahmedies) who also believe in these meanings of "Khatam-an-Nabbiyeen".

**

1-Mujadad Alaf Saani Hazrat Sheikh Ahmed Farooqi Serhindi (died on: 1624 AD)

"After Khatam-ur-Rusal (PBUH), if his followers gain the signs of prophethood as an inheritence, then it shall not affact the status of Khatm-e-Rusal of Holy Prophet(PBUH). SO YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE DOUBT IN IT."

(Maktoob No. 301, Page 432 Volume 1)
......................................

2-Hazrat Muhai-ul-Din Ibn-e-Arabi (6th century Hijri)

"We have got certain knowledge through Darood Shareef that there are some persons in Ummah whose status (In God's View) is the same as prophets. BUT THEY HAVE NOT BROUGHT (NEW) SHARIAH."

(Fatuhat-e-Makiah volume 1 Page 545)
.........................................

3- Hazrat Imam Jaafer (died on: 765 AD)

"Allah made prophets, mesangers and Imams in the Ummah of Hazrat Ibraheem BUT IT IS A STRANGE THING THAT PEOPLE ACCEPT THE EXISTANCE OF THE GIFT OF PROPHETHOOD AND IMAMAT IN THE UMMAH OF HAZRAT IBRAHEEM AND DO NOT ACCEPT THE EXISTANCE OF SAME GIFTS IN THE UMMH OF HOLY PROPHET(PBUH)."

( Alsaafi Sharah Usool-e-Kaafi part 3 Page 119)
.....................................

4- Hazrat Imam Abdul Wahab Shaarani (died on:
1762 AD)

"You must understand that ABSOLUTE PROPHETHOOD IS NOT FINISHED. IT IS THE PROPHETHOOD WITH SHARIAH WHICH IS FINISHED."

(Alewaqiat wa-al-Jawahar volume 3 page 35)

.............................................

5- Hazrat Shah Wali-Ullah Muhaddas Dehlvi (died on: 1762 AD)

"The meaning that Holy Prophet (PBUH) is Khatam-n-Nabiyeen is that Now Allah shall never send any person with (new) Shariah. It means that there shall be no prophet with new Shariah."

(Sorry I just missed to collect its reference I shall tell you In my next post)

...........................................

6- Hazrat Alsheikh Bali Affandi (died on: 920 Hijri)

"Khatam-ur-Rusal is the one after whom NO PROPHET WITH NEW SHARIAH WILL BORN.

(Sharah fasoos-ul-Hukam)

..........................................

7- Hazrat Ab-Abdullah muhammad Bin Ali Hussain Altirmizi (308 Hijri)
**
"And what it is supposed that meaning of Khatam-n-Nabiyeen is that HE (PBUH) is the last of prophets who came. IS THERE ANY SUPERIORITY OR DIGNITY OF HOLY PROPHET (PBUH) IN SUCH MEANING??? AND WHAT IS THE LITERARY IMPORTANCE OF SUCH MEANING???

THIS IS INFACT THE MEANING TAKEN BY FOOLS AND IGNORANTS."
**
(Kitab Khatam-al-Awoliah page 341)
........................................

I am waiting for your comments against these Islamic Scholars.

After having received your comments I shall give you some more references so that you may charge your negative comments on them also.

Then I shall again give you some references out of this long list and so on.........

Please don't dig a deeper hole than you have already dug for yourself.

[This message has been edited by babar123 (edited June 23, 2001).]

16

[quote]
Originally posted by NMK Hajana:
**
Say he is Khatam-un-Nabiyeen, but never say he was the Last Prophet. **
(Tukmila Majmaul Bahar, page 85)
**
[/quote]

I have a question here, Is it possible for someone to be a prophet without being a Nabi?

call me baby

17

Babydoll.

Read my Above Post.

If you still feel yourself not answered then ask again.

[This message has been edited by babar123 (edited June 23, 2001).]

18

Babar

In Arabic grammar, their is no such thing as Negative and Positive Grammar.

The sentence regarding the Seal and Prophet PBUH is an ADVERSATIVE sentence.

The principle adversative particle here is LAKIN or LAAKINA and are often preceded by e.g. 'And they did not wrong Us but they wronged themselves'. 2:57

'For he neither affirmed (the truth) nor prayed but deemed (the truth) a lie and turned away'. 75:31.32

When introducing a nominal clause LAAKINA requires the subject to be put in the accusative. ' And Suleiman was not unbelieving but the devils were unbelieving'. 2:102, whereas LAAKIN leaves it in the nominative, e.g. But the wrongdoers are today in manifest error'.

LAAKIN and LAAKINA are to be used to rectify or amend the previous statement.

Furthermore, Allah has already confirmed that Muhammed PBUH is an Apostle of Allah and a Messenger like the other Prophets without using the word Seal in other Chapters of the Qur'aan. This is in line with Qur'aanic Grammar!

19

If I am not wrong, NMK Hajana is banned from the Gupshup and therefore we will not see his post anymore.

"Away from Eyes......Close to Heart"

20

[quote]
Originally posted by sholay:
**
Babar

In Arabic grammar, their is no such thing as Negative and Positive Grammar.

The sentence regarding the Seal and Prophet PBUH is an ADVERSATIVE sentence.

The principle adversative particle here is LAKIN or LAAKINA and are often preceded by e.g. 'And they did not wrong Us but they wronged themselves'. 2:57

'For he neither affirmed (the truth) nor prayed but deemed (the truth) a lie and turned away'. 75:31.32

When introducing a nominal clause LAAKINA requires the subject to be put in the accusative. ' And Suleiman was not unbelieving but the devils were unbelieving'. 2:102, whereas LAAKIN leaves it in the nominative, e.g. But the wrongdoers are today in manifest error'.

LAAKIN and LAAKINA are to be used to rectify or amend the previous statement.

Furthermore, Allah has already confirmed that Muhammed PBUH is an Apostle of Allah and a Messenger like the other Prophets without using the word Seal in other Chapters of the Qur'aan. This is in line with Qur'aanic Grammar!

**
[/quote]

Mr. Sholay:

This time you have a good question.

You have given following three examples.

'And they did not wrong Us but they wronged themselves'. 2:57

'For he neither affirmed (the truth) nor prayed but deemed (the truth) a lie and turned away'. 75:31.32

' And Suleiman was not unbelieving but the devils were unbelieving'. 2:102

If the true meanings of above verses of Quran are indeed against the Rule of English Grammer presented by me in my previous post, then atleast my Previous Answer in which I have presented a rule of English Grammer, Becomes Doubtful.

At this time I am not going to give my comments on these verses. First I shall consult the Urdu Translation of these verses.

Mr. Sholay;

We Ahmedies, believe in each and every verse of Quran. Every thing which is proved from any single of the Quranic verses, we do believe in it. We also have the courage to accept the truth.

So I have taken your point in mind and I consider myself responsible to ask this point from Ahmedy Scholars and to get explaination for the same. Your this question is a valid one and I am responsible to give you the explaination.

**At this time I just want to ask VALID questions from our side for which you have not taken the responsibility:

  • Suppose your translation of ayet Khatam-an-Nabiyeen is true. Can Ahmedies be considered non-Muslim on the basis of this point???

  • If Ahmedies can be considered Non-Muslim on the basis of this point then other Muslim Scholars (including Hazrat Ayesha Siddiqa Hazrat Mujadad Alaf Saani, Hazrat Shah Waliullah, Hazrat Muhyyudin Ibn-e-Arabi etc should also be considered as Non-Muslims because they also do not believe in Your meanings of Ayet Khatam-an-Nabiyeen. Should you consider these Muslim Scholars as Non-Muslim????

  • If your meanings of Ayet Khatam-an-Nabiyeen is true, then what is the explaination of "khatam-al-awoliah" and "Khatam-al-Masaajid"????

  • The following type of Arabi Translation of English sentence, 'Bahadur Shah Zafar was the last of Mughal Empires'

"Khatam-al-Salateen Min Salateen-e-Mughlia" is True or False???

  • There are other Ayets in Quran which state that Prophets may come after Hazrat Muhammad(pbuh)(7:35 etc). Is there any other ayet which state that NO PROPHET SHALL COME NOW???

  • What is the explaination when Hazrat Muhammad (pbuh) says that If his(pbuh) son Ibraheen were not died, then he(Ibraheem, the son of Holy Prophet(pbuh) ) would become a true Prophet????

  • What is the explaination when in the Hadith of Sahi Muslim, Hazrat Muhammad(pbuh) says that Ibn-e-Meryyem shall descent among Muslims. And he shall be prophet.........and he shall be prophet.....and he shall be prophet.....and he shall be prophet....?????

I shall consider your point seriously despite the fact whether you take our points seriously or not.

At the end I want to tell you that you are not the first Nation who believe that NOW NO PROPHET SHALL COME.

Quran itself has introduced us about such an old Nation who also had this false belief. If you ask, then I shall tell you about it with reference.

**

[This message has been edited by babar123 (edited June 24, 2001).]