^^ who cares what Indians say, but the mere fact the hindi language is understood by us, is driving Bollywood. If Pakistan signs peace and economics agreemtns with India, it would be huge industry.
Back to the topic, I am very sensitive to ppl's sensitivity with their language. If Balochs want their language to be Balochi, all power to them. Jinnah made a very big mistake by imposing Urdu. He and others should let the social and economical demands/supply currents to settle these sensitive issues. Govt should not play its part in it.
Karachi belongs to Baluch people, and NWFP, Tribal Areas and parts of Baluchistan belongs to Afghans and those guys are not going to leave their land to you darky kaangrri ‘pehlwans’ trust me.
Punjabi, Seraiki, and Sindhi (also northwest Indian languages) are Indo-Aryan languages whereas Pashto, Baluchi, and Dari/Farsi are Iranian languages. Indo-Aryan and Iranian are sub-branches of the Indo-Iranian branch of Indo-European family of languages. This means that Seraiki, Punjabi, and Sindhi languages are related to Pashto, Baluchi, and Dari/Persian languages … because they have a common origin … and are linguistically classified in the same Indo-Iranian branch of languages. The difference between Punjabi/Sindhi/Seraiki (Indo-Aryan sub-branch of Indo-Iranian) and Pashto/Farsi/Baluchi (Iranian sub-branch of Indo-Iranian) is similar to Swedish/Danish/Norwegian (North sub-branch of Germanic) and English/German/Dutch (West sub-branch of Germanic). By the way, the terms Aryan and Iranian are derivatives of each other and mean the same!
So now why is Dari/Farsi a better choice than Urdu for Pakistan’s national language?
Urdu has no historical basis:
Urdu has no historical basis in Pakistan region before the advent of British colonialists (the British further developed Urdu and promoted it) and was then imposed as Pakistan’s national language in 1947 by the Muhajir-dominated Pakistani media/govt. On the other hand, Farsi/Dari has a solid historical basis in Pakistan region. It was the official language through out Muslim and non-Muslim rule before the advent of British colonialists… whether locally independent or part of neighboring empires.
Urdu represents an ethnic minority’s domination:
Urdu is the mother-tongue of only Muhajirs in Pakistan who represent less than 7% of Pakistanis. On the other hand, Dari/Farsi is not the mother-tongue of any single ethnic group. It is spoken by Hazaras, Tajiks, Persians, Uzbeks, Baluchs, Pashtuns, Kurds, etc. in the Afghanistan-Iran-CASia region.
Urdu is a foreign language:
Urdu is only native to a part of north India (i.e. Delhi, UP, MP, Bihar, etc regions) and is a foreign language in Pakistan. On the other hand, Dari/Farsi was spoken by the ancestors of Pakistanis (pre-British era).
Urdu is responsible for Indian cultural invasion:
Urdu and Hindi are the same language (except for the script and some loan-words). This enables the mighty Indian media outlets such as TV, films, news, music to strongly influence Pakistanis. Pakistanis are being “Indianized” while their distinct identities are being destroyed. On the other hand, Dari/Farsi media is weak and the language itself does not belong to any single country. This language equally belongs to Pakistan just like it was in the pre-British era.
Urdu causes an identity crises:
Since Urdu and Hindi are the same language (except for the script and some loan-words), people falsely perceive Indians and Pakistanis to be the same people. On the other hand, Dari/Farsi ensures each country’s identity to be distinct. An Afghan is not perceived as an Iranian, and vice versa.
Urdu contradicts the creation of Pakistan:
Since Pakistan’s creation was meant to separate from British-created Hindu India. Urdu being an Indian language and similar to Hindi is forcelly making Pakistan closer to Hindu India and undoing partition. On the other hand, Dari/Farsi will ensure Pakistan becomes more different from India and make it closer to its western neighbor with whom it has close historical, racial, cultural and religious ties.
Urdu is disintegrating Pakistan:
Urdu imposition was mostly responsible for the loss of East Pakistan. And most Sindhis, Pashtuns, Baluchs, etc. strongly resent Urdu imposition. On the other hand, Dari/Farsi is not resented by any ethnic group of Pakistan because it does not belong to any ethnic group and has a solid historical basis in Pakistan.
Urdu is the language of the Hindus:
Urdu/Hindi is the mother-tongue of almost 400 million Hindus in India and only 10 million Muslims in Pakistan. On the other hand, Dari/Fari is only spoken by Muslims.
Urdu lacks sophistication:
Most of Urdu literature is filled with wine drunken love affairs when the Muslim rule was steadily declining. It lacks science and modernity, even today. On the other hand, Dari/Fari has plenty of books in various sciences and arts, was always the language of the spohisticated, and today has no problem adopting modernity.
So the list goes on…
By the way, so what if Urdu is linguistically related to Pakistan’s native languages! Dari/Farsi is also related to Pakistan’s native languages! The above points clearly shows why Dari/Farsi is a better choice. How would the Italians feel if a minority of French migrants imposes their French language on the Italians (even though both languages are related).. so same thing with Muhajir’s Urdu language and the native Pakistanis.
Every one knows that Urdu and Hindi are the same language. Just because the script are different and a few loan words dont mean any thing! Kemalist Turkey adopted the Latin script and added some French-English words a century ago and that didnt mean any thing, today it is still the same Turkish language. Hindi and Urdu are 95% the same ! Bollywood films, music, and Indian TV channels are completely understood by Urdu-speakers. Read my previous posts where I have quoted references that they are one and the same language.
Dari/Farsi was not limited to Mughal rulers. It was spoken by the educated and remained the official language during Ranjit Singh’s Sikh rule of Punjab-NWFP-Kashmir, Talpur/Kalhora rule of Sindh, Khanate of Kalat/Baluchistan, and all other local kingdoms.. not to mention exclusively during Ghaznavid, Ghorid, Slave dynasty, Khilji, Tughlaq, Syed, Lodhi, Suri, Mughal, and Abdali periods.. and last but not least during the pre-Islamic period such as during Persian, Scythian, Bactrian, Pasrthian, Kushan, etc rule.
Also, racially Punjabis/Sindhis are “by large” distinct from north Indians. Majority of North Indians have much more of the Dravidoid-Australoid racial element which makes them different from majority of Punjabis/Sindhis. Infact Indians have this habit of bragging about how its tiny minority (2-4%) of Punjabis are taller and fairer than other Indians (i.e. on average). It is true that Punjabis/Sindhis have a little Dravidoid racial element, but it is the Caucasoid racial element that dominates among them thus making them closer to Pashtuns/etc. Any way, Dravidoid racial element in common in Iran and Afghanistan as well (though in a lesser degree)… Iran’s ancient Elamite civilization is proof of this.. and so are the looks of many among them today.
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Punjabi should be Pakistan's national language
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Punjabi is a beautiful language just like other Pakistani languages. However, I don't think it will be a good idea as our national language. The reason is simply because we will still face the issue of one ethnic group's cultural domination on others, and the resentment by others because of that. Plus, we don't want to give another reason for the ethnic nationalists to complain about and label Pakistan as a true "Punjabistan". Simply put, its a recipe for disaster and possible insurgencies.
Dari/Farsi should be easy to replace Urdu because it has some commonality with it... plus historically was the official language in the region.
i like the way u say those guys …haha…trust me those guys dont care much abt thier gora brethren in the north after thier assimilation in kar, esp those who have nothing but thier gora rang and thier Dari to feel allegiance to them…really ranjhan kuch toa bandai koa self-consciousness hoti hai, aisa kuch kehtai huai…
as if people on this forum are anything to go by…i already outlined who these ppl on the forum are…
second, if Bengladesh could ask for a national language change…they were also powerful enough to throw the whole of West Pakistan off thier backs…They had the India factor to asssit them…
According to statistics I have seen (on more than one occasion) from reliable sources. Hindi/Urdu will take over English in less than 20 years as the most spoken language in the world! It will only be second to Chinese. If its spoken so much, and it has so many "followers" - it cannot be that bad language that it should be replaced.
I can scan and post the articles (i am sure u can find it on torontostar.com too) Canada's leading newspaper.
Punjabi, Seraiki, and Sindhi (also northwest Indian languages) are Indo-Aryan languages whereas Pashto, Baluchi, and Dari/Farsi are Iranian languages. Indo-Aryan and Iranian are sub-branches of the Indo-Iranian branch of Indo-European family of languages. This means that Seraiki, Punjabi, and Sindhi languages are related to Pashto, Baluchi, and Dari/Persian languages ... because they have a common origin ... and are linguistically classified in the same Indo-Iranian branch of languages. The difference between Punjabi/Sindhi/Seraiki (Indo-Aryan sub-branch of Indo-Iranian) and Pashto/Farsi/Baluchi (Iranian sub-branch of Indo-Iranian) is similar to Swedish/Danish/Norwegian (North sub-branch of Germanic) and English/German/Dutch (West sub-branch of Germanic). By the way, the terms Aryan and Iranian are derivatives of each other and mean the same!
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North Indian languages such as Hindi, Gujarati, Marathi, Bengali, Kashmiri etc. are also Indo-Iranian languages belonging to the same sub-group (Indo-Aryan) as Punjabi, Seraiki, and Sindhi etc.
Pure Urdu to me is as Indo-Aryan/Indic as it is Indo-Iranian.
North Indian languages and people are probably more Dravidianised than Pakistanis but Punjabi/Sindhi etc. still have a lot more in common with them than they do with Pashtuns or Persians or Tajiks or Kurds.
and u r saying all this when u havent even seen Karachi.....how many of the so-called balochs and pathans come running back to wed thier women up north and to the the west?
this patriotic to thier roots bull is only what they feed u simpletons up there...
aik tarz-e-andaaz hota hai baat karnai ka, bas aur toa kuch nahin....:p
and i said all that precisely becoz u arent pathan, and u rnt balochi either haina?
toa u shud be as impartial to karachiites as ur being to the balochis and pathans..
1) Urdu does not belong to no ethnic minority- it has been adopted by various ethnic groups- plus Urdu is not hindi nor hindustani. Speak pure urdu and will see that most of the vocubulary has persian words- as a semi- fluent speaker in farsi- i see no need to make farsi as the offical or national langauge of Pakistan- Urdu could be regarded as a dialect of farsi as far as i am corncerned-
2) If Pakistan was an islamic nation- we should have adopted Arabic- not is it only a viable language- it fits in our pattern of life- Arabic will reduce ethnic or sectarian tensions as Arabic is a neutral language- Arabic can be taught and assimilated into Pakistani society
3) the national langauge is differebt from a persons "madari zaban"- what im tryin to say is that just because more people are speaking urdu doesnt mean their madari zaban is finished- the national or offical langauge should be only used for a lingua franca- we dont have to adopt the national langauge
Yes northwest/north Indian languages are also Indo-Iranian (though more Dravidian influenced). Belonging to the same Indo-Aryan sub-branch might make them linguistically a bit closer to Punjabi/Sindhi/Seraiki, but that still does not support your argument of imposing Urdu on Pakistanis. Although these languages are related and have a common origin, they are still distinct languages having their own identities. How would the Italians feel if a minority of French migrants imposes their French language on the Italians (even though both languages are related and belong to the same branch).. so same thing applies with the relationship of Muhajir’s (or north India’s) Urdu language and the native Pakistanis (and their languages). Urdu is a foreign language in Pakistan and is only the mother-tongue of 7% Pakistanis (Muhajirs). On the other hand, Dari/Persian is also related and has common origin to Pakistan’s native languages since its also an Indo-Iranian language, but more importantly it does not belong to any ethnic group and was always the official language (also of the educated) in the pre-British era.
By the way, Pashtuns/Baluchs/etc. and Punjabis/Sindhis/etc. have much more in commonality with each other than with the neighboring countries as a whole (excluding same ethnic groups). Thats because about 30% of Afghans (Hazaras, Turks, etc) are Mongoloid by race and 15% are linguistically Turkic (Uzbeks, Turkmens, Kyrgyz, etc). Similarly, about 30% of Shia Iran’s Iranians (Azeris, Turkmens, etc) are linguistically Turkic. Then about 27% of Indians are linguistically Dravidian and 5% are Sino-Tibetan. Racially about 60% of Indians (lower castes and south Indians) are Australoid-Dravidoid by race and 15% (northeast Indians and others) are Mongoloid. Then other religious, geographic, historical, etc differences among them are abundant.
On the other hand Pashtuns, Baluchs, Punjabis, Sindhis, Kashmiris, and Seraikis of Pakistan (i.e. 99% of native Pakistanis):
Are linguistically Indo-Iranian with languages written in the Perso-Arabic script.
Are geographically based around Indus river and its tributaries.
Share a common history such as under Harappan, Aryan, Persian, Greek, Scythian, Parthian, Kushan, Hephthalite, Arab, and Turkic periods.
Share the same religion of Islam, mostly Sunni.
Are racially mostly Caucasoids mixed with others.
Are culturally based from the fusion of Islamic and Indo-Iranian roots.
Very few countries in this world are blessed with so much commonalities!
Urdu and Hindi are the same language except for the script and some loan-words. Hindustani (Khari-boli) language belonging to only UP/Delhi/MP/Bihar region was “communalized” during the British rule (particularly at Fort Williams College) giving birth to Urdu and Hindi. Urdu and Farsi are not dialects, and its speakers can barely understand each other. On the other hand Urdu and Hindi speakers can understand 95% of each other. Read my previous posts which proves (with references) that Urdu and Hindi are one and the same language.. and that in Pakistan it is the mother-tongue of only Muhajirs (7% of Pakistanis). Let’s not fool ourselves by denying this fact while we are being “Indianized” by India’s mighty Hindi-Urdu media outlets in the form of Indian films, TV, news, music, etc. Plus because of Urdu we have problems such identity crises among Pakistanis (confused as Indians), resentment of native Pakistanis over the cultural domination of an ethnic minority (Muhajir), and much more…
Although I prefer Arabic over Urdu, Dari/Farsi is still a better option. I have outlined in detail an analysis between Arabic and Dari/Farsi in one of my previous posts. Please refer to it.
Yes we should try to speak in our mother-tongues, and try to preserve it. But national language which is used for inter-provincial/ethnic communication and gives us our “national” identity certainly influences every one!
Yet another damn stupid attempt to prove Pakistanis are “white” and others in the region black or dravidian (whatever you prefer to call it).. you might want to check the following link out to see these caucasoids dancing below:
I am very light and ppl call be greek/Italian/Spanish in north america but I feel insulted because my identity seems to hijacked - I am a proud pakistani belonging to a family which has made lot of sacrifices for the country and where there are both light and dark skinned - we don’t discuss race/skin tone cuz it would be very sick discussion. I have seen most of the pakistanis are hypocrates - talk a lot of about equality in Islam and yet prefer goras and kiss their butt. The reason we pakistanis like kashmiris and never liked Bangladeshis is because poor bengalis are dark-skinned and kashmiris are very light-skinned. Dude, you are no less than those auntis in lahore who are so crazy about Hrithink Roshan (a hindu, dravdian/negro according to you) and not Shah Rukh Khan (a Muslim, a pathan and a caucasoid according to you but looks real negro) that they can run on the street to get a glimpse.. I went to Multan like 4 months back in a wedding and ppl were cursing the dulha cuz he was kala and bad-surat… little they knew that he was serving in Pakistani Army and was saving the very ppl who were cursing him… I guess we need to take a lesson from Indians who can put Akshay Khanna or Jugal Hansraj (who looks just white) as brother of Ajay Devgan.. As always I feel sad for pakistan.. pakistan zindabad!!
Why??? Why change the order? whats wrong with the existing? Why are trying to bring foreign languages in our country? Dont make me angry… Whats wrong with our punjabi??? U hate the language? isn’t it? National cricket team talks in punjabi in the dressing rooms.. so do most of the army men.. u know that? Who speaks Arabic in Pakistan? ur abbajaan? where is he from? from one of those sand countries? I am curious to know… I won’t agree to it so would not most of the chaudharys back home.. maybe we have to launch an agitation to make punjabi the national language…
Dont be mad… re-read my previous posts. And I do not support Arabic because Dari/Farsi has a more solid basis to be Pakistan’s national language.
I absolutely support all native languages of Pakistan which should be promoted and preserved at the local levels. But the issue here is the national language for inter-ethnic/provincial communication and national identity.
Punjabi is a beautiful language just like other Pakistani languages. However, I don’t think it will be a good idea as our national language. The reason is simply because we will still face the issue of one ethnic group’s cultural domination on others, and the resentment by others because of that. Plus, we don’t want to give another reason for the ethnic nationalists to complain about and label Pakistan as a true “Punjabistan”. Simply put, its a recipe for disaster and possible insurgencies.
Dari/Farsi should be easy to replace Urdu because it has some commonality with it… so why is Dari/Farsi a better choice than Urdu for Pakistan’s national language?
Urdu has no historical basis:
Urdu has no historical basis in Pakistan region before the advent of British colonialists (the British further developed Urdu and promoted it) and was then imposed as Pakistan’s national language in 1947 by the Muhajir-dominated Pakistani media/govt. On the other hand, Farsi/Dari has a solid historical basis in Pakistan region. It was the official language through out Muslim and non-Muslim rule before the advent of British colonialists… whether locally independent or part of neighboring empires.
Urdu represents an ethnic minority’s domination:
Urdu is the mother-tongue of only Muhajirs in Pakistan who represent less than 7% of Pakistanis. On the other hand, Dari/Farsi is not the mother-tongue of any single ethnic group. It is spoken by Hazaras, Tajiks, Persians, Uzbeks, Baluchs, Pashtuns, Kurds, etc. in the Afghanistan-Iran-CASia region.
Urdu is a foreign language:
Urdu is only native to a part of north India (i.e. Delhi, UP, MP, Bihar, etc regions) and is a foreign language in Pakistan. On the other hand, Dari/Farsi was spoken by the ancestors of Pakistanis (pre-British era).
Urdu is responsible for Indian cultural invasion:
Urdu and Hindi are the same language (except for the script and some loan-words). This enables the mighty Indian media outlets such as TV, films, news, music to strongly influence Pakistanis. Pakistanis are being “Indianized” while their distinct identities are being destroyed. On the other hand, Dari/Farsi media is weak and the language itself does not belong to any single country. This language equally belongs to Pakistan just like it was in the pre-British era.
Urdu causes an identity crises:
Since Urdu and Hindi are the same language (except for the script and some loan-words), people falsely perceive Indians and Pakistanis to be the same people. On the other hand, Dari/Farsi ensures each country’s identity to be distinct. An Afghan is not perceived as an Iranian, and vice versa.
Urdu contradicts the creation of Pakistan:
Since Pakistan’s creation was meant to separate from British-created Hindu India. Urdu being an Indian language and similar to Hindi is forcelly making Pakistan closer to Hindu India and undoing partition. On the other hand, Dari/Farsi will ensure Pakistan becomes more different from India and make it closer to its western neighbor with whom it has close historical, racial, cultural and religious ties.
Urdu is disintegrating Pakistan:
Urdu imposition was mostly responsible for the loss of East Pakistan. And most Sindhis, Pashtuns, Baluchs, etc. strongly resent Urdu imposition. On the other hand, Dari/Farsi is not resented by any ethnic group of Pakistan because it does not belong to any ethnic group and has a solid historical basis in Pakistan.
Urdu is the language of the Hindus:
Urdu/Hindi is the mother-tongue of almost 400 million Hindus in India and only 10 million Muslims in Pakistan. On the other hand, Dari/Fari is only spoken by Muslims.
Urdu lacks sophistication:
Most of Urdu literature is filled with wine drunken love affairs when the Muslim rule was steadily declining. It lacks science and modernity, even today. On the other hand, Dari/Fari has plenty of books in various sciences and arts, was always the language of the spohisticated, and today has no problem adopting modernity.
Anthropologists and genetic studies clearly have proven that the Caucasoid racial element is predominant in most Pakistanis. Yes there are some Dravidoid-Australoid and Mongoloid racial influences.. more or less.. but by large most Pakistanis are Caucasoid. Caucasoid race has various sub-branches, the major divisions are the Nordic (north European) race and the Indo-Mediterranean race. The Indo-Mediterranean branch of Caucasoid race tends to have mostly olive/light brown/tan skin shades and darker hair colors.. and most Pakistanis belong to this category. Most of Pakistan being on the sub-tropical and hot desert lands where the sun exposure is very high, people tend to acquire tans more easily. But the physical features and dna proves that most Pakistanis are racially Caucasoid.
Being racially different does not equate to racism/superiority complex. Differences in race are a matter of fact, which defines one of the many layers of a people’s identity. Every race and physical features are unique in this world with its own beauty, and its all a matter of perception because of how family/society shapes these views to be programmed in individuals growing up during their socialization process. There is no need to get mad if you have racial differences or commonality with other countries/peoples. Pakistanis have diverse racial backgrounds, but Caucasoid is the dominant racial element among them, and all racial minorities should be respected. When I was in Italy, I was surprized to see how southern Italians (Sicily/etc) were mostly darker skinned and brunettes, and then northern Italians have more of the lighter/pale skin with some times blonde hair types, yet they all are classified as Caucasoids. “White” is not a race… very unscientific term used by US govt and others.
BTW I dont care for Indian films/TV/actors.. nor do most of my Pakistani friends/family.
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but more importantly it does not belong to any ethnic group and was always the official language (also of the educated) in the pre-British era.
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Persian/Dari/Farsi may have been an official language for lots of different ethnic groups but that doesn't mean it doesn't belong to any particular ethnic group, it does it belongs to Persian/Farsiwan people.
The rest like Punjabis and Pashtuns have never gave their mother tongues the status they deserve, the Afghan (Pashtun) rulers used this Persian/Dari as official language and so did the one Sikh Punjabi ruler, it's not that beautifull a language I don't see why.
And what's more related to Punjabi and Sindhi??? Urdu or Persian/Pashto/ Baluchi et al.??? Urdu ofcourse, a Punjabi person even if he can't speak Urdu can still understand or get a jist of what the Urdu person is saying but he can't with Persian or Pashto, infact a Punjabi can usually understand Hndustani better than pure Urdu becuase pure Urdu has a lot of Persian words.
I don't know what you're problem is with Urdu, if we had pure Urdu in Pakistan we can easily make a statement that look we're seprate from India, some level of Indian influence will always be there in Pakistan because we're neighbours even if the national/constituional languages are unintelegible, just as there is "Paki"influence such as Shalwar Kameez, Gharaaras, Sherwanis, Pathani suits, Bollywood Hindustani leaning towards Urdu etc.
Having Persian as our language wont stop Indian influence because look at Afghanistanis their languages are totally unintlleigble to Hindi yet still they love Hindi films more than we do, especially the fobby ones, on one hand they're crazy over Indian actors and actresses and the other they call them daalkhor. Indoneians and Chinese are another people who love Indian films.
People are going to appreciate quality enetertainment regardless of country, all though amongst Muslims ive seen a noticable decline in bollywood craze because although premartial relationships of any kind are not accepted in Islamic culture, Muslims still managed to digest the usual love piyar sruff but now it's moved onto lust and stuff so a lot of Muslim families I know now are switcihng to Paki tv channels.
