Re: changes in the hudood ordinance
Surely he has islamized interest! And Meezan bank charges more than other banks for its services!
Re: changes in the hudood ordinance
cricket playa. why are all of you not coming to the point i have raised. okay he must have been a well respected one. but what about i indicated how he avoided writing arabic where the word zina was not used and translated as rape and gave arabic where zina was used. i mean to me this is not an error but malafide intentions of misguiding and proving his point.
anybody come to the point
Re: changes in the hudood ordinance
^ so what was the word used in arabic then????
Re: changes in the hudood ordinance
anybody come to the point
Seriously, I don't get what your gettin at?
Re: changes in the hudood ordinance
Actually the word used in Arabic is equivalent of overpowering. He has translated it as rape and quoted as a proof that zina covers rape as well as adultery. Twice the word for rape is overpowering not zina.
The post-fix bil jabbar and bil raza were coined by later time Faqeeh's to solve the problem of covering rape which is a crime similar in nature to a layman, but according to psychology it is not a crime of lust but a crime of aggression, so it is covered in Zulm, Fitnah. You can punish the rapist with death but please including it in Hudd means that you have to produce 4 x witness which will not be there in rape generally (except revenge type).
Hudd actually is a threat for people to avoid doing adultery other than the very privacies of their lives. In their privacies they are subject to punishment by Allah in afterlife but not by state. however if they start doing it on beaches & parks like west than automatically witness will be found and hudd applied. so where this act is hurting the society state will punish through hudd and once privately Allah will punish but not the state. That is my argument.
You can check any arabic dictionary of the Quran's time. Zina was adultery and no one used the post fix bil jabbar and bil raza.
Re: changes in the hudood ordinance
^ what good will a dictionary do to us if u dont tell us what the actual arabic word was....
u r repeating it again and again that the mullah tried to deceive everyone by not using the actual arabic word, and u urself r refraining from giving it out....
Re: changes in the hudood ordinance
http://www.cii.gov.pk/hudood/HOO_1979.pdf
This is the interim report prepared by Islamic Ideology council for review of Hudood ordinance.
Worth having a glance!!!
Armughal, can you check the word for me, i read the same Hadith where the word was not zina (as far as i remember) but i have no access to Sahih Bukhari for next ten days (to check arabic word used). I am unable to find the onlie version. If you can check both Bukhari & Trimzi from the sanad, i will be grateful, if i am mistaken i will promptly accept my faults and will stop posting against Taqi Usmani. However if you want me to check myself i will take 10 days to come back home and see it for myself
Re: changes in the hudood ordinance
Yes, there was a clause of four witnesses. Mufti Taqi Uthmani is wrong on that count.
*8. Proof of zina or zina-bil-jabr liable to hadd. *
*Proof of zina-bil-jabr liable to hadd shall be in one of the following forms, namely:- *
*(a) the accused makes before a Court of competent jurisdiction a confession of the commission of the offence; or *
(b)* at least four Muslim adult male witnesses, about whom the Court is satisfied, having regard to the requirements of tazkiyah al-shuhood, that they are truthful persons and abstain from major sins (kabair), give evidence as eye-widnesses of the act of penetration necessary to the offence:** *
Provided that, if the accused is a non-Muslim, the eye-witnesses may be non-Muslims.
Also, DNA was not widely used until the late 1980’s, and Zia’s Hudood ordinance was passed a decade earlier. Uthmani is again wrong.
Re: changes in the hudood ordinance
Thank you for this link! It looks like a very thorough report. I will have to go through it when I have time.
Re: changes in the hudood ordinance
Authentic Hadith from Sunan Abu Dawud: Book 38, Number 4366:
Narrated Wa'il ibn Hujr:
When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her.
She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That (man) did such and such to me. And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her.
She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him).
When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up and said: Apostle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her.
*He (the Prophet) said to her: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you. But he told the man some good words (AbuDawud said: meaning the man who was seized), and of the man who had had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death. *
He also said: He has repented to such an extent that if the people of Medina had repented similarly, it would have been accepted from them.
This was posted by a person in favor of taqi usmani in same forum. about bukhari, i think i have not seen the original arabic text.
Mughal can you verify after consulting the arabic version of bukhari
Re: changes in the hudood ordinance
The translation can be seen on this link as well.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/038.sat.html
the word is overpowering (i am not sure about the original word ) and this hadith shows the punishment of stoning to death but does not use the word hadd as indicated by Maulan taqi Usmani in his article. (You may look at the third page of taqi’s article and see he has not included the word hadd and rape in paranthesis) and compare the two translations.
Re: changes in the hudood ordinance
About the second Hadith quoted by Maulana Taqi from Sahih Bukhari, he has given the reference as Sahih Bukhari, Kitab ul Ikrah. Please visit the link, i am unable to find it in the online version
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/085.sbt.html
May be either they have missed the hadith or incident in the online version, but somehow Ikrah is coercion. The subject of the book does not relate to the topic under discussion i.e. Hudood
Mughal where are you? i am waiting for your response!!! May be i can correct myself if i am mistaken in my beliefs
Re: changes in the hudood ordinance
Neither the online version of “Book of Hudood” shows any such incidents. may be they missed it out. I am pasting the link underneath.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/081.sbt.html
Re: changes in the hudood ordinance
So whats the verdict people; It looks like Taqi Usmani IS fraud afterall.
Re: changes in the hudood ordinance
Now u shud either prove him wrong by logic/arguments or agree with him.
It were previoulsy asking mods to let people discuss whatever and put forth arguments and now u r resorting to personal attacks.
so iconoclast, have you followed my posts, can you comment further that am i mistaken or correct in my approach!!!
Re: changes in the hudood ordinance
No LB, may be or not, so far verdict stage has not arrived because till the time we see the arabic text we will never be sure but probably i would say it his attempt to defend his clan (the maulvies).
Stoning to death as a punsihment is Hudd or not? Quranic Hudood does not prescribe this punishment. Should'nt we consider these Hadiths as kind of 'mushkook" whose mattan goes against the Quran.
Re: changes in the hudood ordinance
ـ باب إذا استكرهت المرأة على الزنا، فلا حد عليها في قوله تعالى {ومن يكرههن فإن الله من بعد إكراههن غفور رحيم}
7035 ـ وقال الليث حدثني نافع، أن صفية ابنة أبي عبيد، أخبرته أن عبدا من رقيق الإمارة وقع على وليدة من الخمس، فاستكرهها حتىاقفتضها، فجلده عمر الحد ونفاه، ولم يجلد الوليدة من أجل أنه استكرهها. قال الزهري في الأمة البكر، يفترعها الحر، يقيم ذلك الحكم من الأمة العذراء بقدر قيمتها، ويجلد، وليس في الأمة الثيب في قضاء الأئمة غرم، ولكن عليه الحد.
Re: changes in the hudood ordinance
here is the hadith for u in arabic....
it is from bukhari, and it is under kitaab-al-ikraah....
i include the hadith number for u....
and stop relying a lot on online info....
the title given by bukhari means "if a woman is forced to have zina" which to the best of my knowledge means "rape" and i am sure that is what it meant to tqi uthmani as well....
but if u have any other meaning for it, plz share....
also note that the other hadith that uthmani is talking about is from tirmidhi and the link u have posted here is from abu-dawood....
dont mislead ppl here by posting wrong links just because you yourself failed to find the correct hadith....
you can find that hadith also posted by me below this post....
now plz find yourself a good translator....
Re: changes in the hudood ordinance
22 - باب ما جاء في المرأة إذا استكرهت على الزنا
1524 - حدثنا علي بن حجر، حدثنا معمر بن سليمان الرقي، عن الحجاج بن أرطاة، عن عبد الجبار بن وائل بن حجر، عن أبيه، قال استكرهت امرأة على عهد رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فدرأ عنها رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم الحد وأقامه على الذي أصابها ولم يذكر أنه جعل لها مهرا . قال أبو عيسى هذا حديث غريب وليس إسناده بمتصل وقد روي هذا الحديث من غير هذا الوجه . قال سمعت محمدا يقول عبد الجبار بن وائل بن حجر لم يسمع من أبيه ولا أدركه يقال إنه ولد بعد موت أبيه بأشهر . والعمل على هذا عند أهل العلم من أصحاب النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم وغيرهم أن ليس على المستكرهة حد .
1525 - حدثنا محمد بن يحيى النيسابوري، حدثنا محمد بن يوسف، عن إسرائيل، حدثنا سماك بن حرب، عن علقمة بن وائل الكندي، عن أبيه، أن امرأة، خرجت على عهد رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم تريد الصلاة فتلقاها رجل فتجللها فقضى حاجته منها فصاحت فانطلق ومر عليها رجل فقالت إن ذاك الرجل فعل بي كذا وكذا . ومرت بعصابة من المهاجرين فقالت إن ذاك الرجل فعل بي كذا وكذا . فانطلقوا فأخذوا الرجل الذي ظنت أنه وقع عليها وأتوها فقالت نعم هو هذا . فأتوا به رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فلما أمر به ليرجم قام صاحبها الذي وقع عليها فقال يا رسول الله أنا صاحبها . فقال لها " اذهبي فقد غفر الله لك " . وقال للرجل قولا حسنا وقال للرجل الذي وقع عليها " ارجموه " . وقال " لقد تاب توبة لو تابها أهل المدينة لقبل منهم " . قال أبو عيسى هذا حديث حسن غريب صحيح . وعلقمة بن وائل بن حجر سمع من أبيه وهو أكبر من عبد الجبار بن وائل وعبد الجبار بن وائل لم يسمع من أبيه
Re: changes in the hudood ordinance
(23:5 to 6) And they preserve their sexual energies only for their wives; or slave maids (who were in their possession before the Quranic injunctions prohibiting slavery were revealed ~ 47:4; and who after being duly married had been given a status equal to that of other wives). There is no blame in having sexual relations with them.
(23:7) Whoever resorts to any other form of sexual relation is tresspassing the Divine Limits (which is a serious offence ( 24:2).
(4:25)Whoever amongst you cannot afford to marry a free believing woman, may marry a believing woman who is a captive. If you marry a captive woman, do not treat her as an inferior (because once she accepts Islam and marries you, she is at par with others). Allah knows all about your Ei’man (and Ei’man is the only consideration for distinction, otherwise) the one of you is as the other. Marry captive women with the permission of their custodians and pay them their appropriate dowers. If you marry these women, marry them for the purpose of leading a conjugal life and not for the mere satisfaction of your lust. Do not have a secret relationship with them
(33:30)O, wives of the Nabi! Keep in mind one more thing. Since you have to become models for others you have to be extremely careful. (For example) If any one of you is found guilty of manifestly immoral conduct, you will be given double the punishment (than that given to others) and under the Divine Laws the enforcement of this law is not at all difficult.
(4:15)If any of your women commit indecency, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst yourselves. If they are proven guilty, restrict their movement by confining them to their houses for life or until Allah opens out a way for them
In this ayaat (4:15)most of the scholars translate the word fahsha in to zina but this is not right.Kion ke quran nay zina ke saza khud Tajveez kar de hai woh hai 100 kooray.
false Accusation
(24:4). Since chastity is regarded as a very precious virtue and a permanent value, every step should be taken to protect and safeguard it. In this context, it is hereby decreed that those who accuse a virtuous lady and fail to bring in four witnesses in support of their accusation, shall be flogged with eighty lashes and thereafter never again be accepted as a witness. (Deprive them of the civic rights which are normally availed by all citizens; and if even that does not deter them then inflict a severer punishment on them ~ 24:23.) This is because they have abandoned the right path and have become wicked transgressors.