CDA Bulldozing Illegally constructed Mosques in Islamabad

[mufakkar]

Re: Musharaf Buildozing Mosques in Islamabad

It is not a matter of where I am getting these things from. In Islam (you want evidence I can provide it) that harm shall not take place nor shall a harm be allowed to continue. The commentaries are on the 40 hadith ...

Part of the scholarly outcomes of this hadith is that harm shall not be applied to a situation to mitigate another harm. Rather where the option is to prevent or consolidate or come to a compromise then this is the right option.

...And this somehow does not apply to the illegal occupation of a Children's library?

[hareem01]

Re: Musharaf Buildozing Mosques in Islamabad

...And this somehow does not apply to the illegal occupation of a Children's library?

Of course it does ... I've explained this already ... do you read your replies?

I told you there is sometimes no other choice to make people listen especially if a statement is being made.

I also told you that other methods would have been better. However, this issue is not the school nor is the issue of who a small group of women conduct their protests. The issue is the government and the methods it uses to undertake it's affairs. It's the government that is in a position to forgive and forget and the populous should not have to be subdued with pressure.

So stop bending the argument. I didn't tell those women to protest yet they did this for a reason. I would not have known about it lest they did what they did, and no newspaper would have reported the news if they didn't do that. Then no one would have known what the government has done.

Yes, I disagree with some things people do, but I defend them not in their methods but in their purpose.

[mufakkar]

Re: Musharaf Buildozing Mosques in Islamabad

Of course it does ... I've explained this already ... do you read your replies?

I told you there is sometimes no other choice to make people listen especially if a statement is being made.

I also told you that other methods would have been better. However, this issue is not the school nor is the issue of who a small group of women conduct their protests. The issue is the government and the methods it uses to undertake it's affairs. It's the government that is in a position to forgive and forget and the populous should not have to be subdued with pressure.

So stop bending the argument. I didn't tell those women to protest yet they did this for a reason. I would not have known about it lest they did what they did, and no newspaper would have reported the news if they didn't do that. Then no one would have known what the government has done.

Yes, I disagree with some things people do, but I defend them not in their methods but in their purpose.

You may not have asked those women to protest but you are the one defending thier tactics--not their purpose by saying at first that you see no bamboo sticks, then saying oh they (danda bardars) are few in number, then shifting over to oh how peaceful they look and finally the argument that the children can wait because there are other more important issues.

My point is simply this: Bullying, Lying and aggression is not the right way to register a protest. The Ahadith about not bringing harm apply here too showing that the actions taken by these ladies is not right. There is no way Islam supports such actions.Therefore they are harming their cause by doing wrong things and invalidating thier protest anyway.

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Musharaf Buildozing Mosques in Islamabad

Enough of the words Fraudz ... Where is your proof ... stop quoting newspaper articles, that isna proof ... Where is the proof of your allegations and I will step down.

where is your proof :)

[Croquet]

Re: CDA Bulldozing Illegally constructed Mosques in Islamabad

so either party lacks the proof then?

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Musharaf Buildozing Mosques in Islamabad

It is not a matter of where I am getting these things from. In Islam (you want evidence I can provide it) that harm shall not take place nor shall a harm be allowed to continue. The commentaries are on the 40 hadith ...

Part of the scholarly outcomes of this hadith is that harm shall not be applied to a situation to mitigate another harm. Rather where the option is to prevent or consolidate or come to a compromise then this is the right option.

To prevent people building illegally on land, the government aught to put in place certifcation measures and hold construction companies liable for building without the correct permits. But when a building has been made and is utilised for a long time then it becomes in a court of law more difficult to repossess that property as for that duration silence has meant passive agreement.

You should know all this in any case ...

Again the harm should be reduced, so the best way to do that is to provide the alternative before getting rid of the contended property. Is this not logical enough for you? Challenge this for logic and you will get a wrong mark.

harm is being reduced the harm to the ******s (theives) is being reduced by govt bending over backwards to give them land elsewhere. That is more than enough.

Just because justice against these darhyal chors was not done in years does not mean justice is not needed.

Its not the govt's respnsibility to provide replacements for illegal buildings. the fact that they are even doing that is enough.

as far as challenging logic goes, answer one simple question

Is stealing land allowed or not, whether it is for a masjid a disco or a paan ka khokha. lets see your.....logic

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: CDA Bulldozing Illegally constructed Mosques in Islamabad

so either part lacks the proof then?

the people arguing here..yes they have no proof. however for the two parties that are at odds i.e. the illegal building owners and the CDA, its a whole diff issue. CDA had done a detailed assessment of every masjid and madrissa in the area. they have building permit records and land ownership records.

Their entire action has been on the basis of that. On the other hand the mullah squatters have presented zero proof of rightful ownership of teh land or proof of adherence to building code and approved plans. They could spare us the rhetoric of Jihad and stuff and just show the proof. But they have none, thats why they have made it into a islam issue rather than that of a property crime issue.

[Croquet]

Re: CDA Bulldozing Illegally constructed Mosques in Islamabad

um but if either party here lacks the proof than how come u r so sure CDA indeed has all the documents?

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: CDA Bulldozing Illegally constructed Mosques in Islamabad

um but if either party here lacks the proof than how come u r so sure CDA indeed has all the documents?

Because they have access to all those records, they have access to building permits, land deeds, etc etc.

again, if they were just making stuff up, it would take just a copy of the deed of trust or an approved building permit corroborating these illegal squatter's stories. However they have not provided it to the public. You think any newspaper or TV reporter would shy away from reporting that?

I guess it comes down to trust in people, and I have a hard time trusting people threatening 'jihad' and taking over libraries, b*****shing laathis and guns...

[Croquet]

Re: CDA Bulldozing Illegally constructed Mosques in Islamabad

i find this an interesting read regarding the topic at hand
Two mosques demolished in Islamabad over security threat
By Shahzad Malik

ISLAMABAD: The Islamabad district administration and Capital Development Authority (CDA) on Saturday demolished two mosques near the Islamabad Highway and Murree Road, after intelligence reports indicated they could be used to launch terrorist attacks.

Sources told Daily Times that the intelligence agencies had reported to the Interior Ministry that mosques in green areas near Murre Road and Islamabad Highway could be used by “miscreants” to target VIPs and foreign dignitaries, who use these roads often to travel between the airport and their offices in the capital. There was also a raised threat of terrorist attacks because of Tuesday’s air strike on a suspected militant compound in South Waziristan.

After receiving the intelligence reports, the Interior Ministry ordered the CDA and the district administration to demolish these mosques.

CDA Urban Planning Director Zafer Iqbal Zafer had issued notices to administrators of 10 mosques and their adjacent seminaries to remove unauthorised constructions from green areas within 15 days, sources said. Jamia Faridia is one of these seminaries. Consturction on green areas is against the rules, hence these mosques were built illegally.

The mosque administrators did not heed the notices and ultimately CDA anti-encroachment staff, backed by police, demolished Amir Hamza mosque near Murree Road and another mosque built by police near their check post on the Islamabad Highway.

Law enforcement agencies have also tightened security around petrol pumps on the Islamabad Highway, Murree Road and Jinnah Avenue.

Over 300 religious leaders condemned the demolition of the mosques and alleged that the government had done so to appease the US and European countries.

The clerics called an emergency meeting on this issue at Madni Mosque on Murree Road, at which Maulana Abdul Rauf and Qari Saeedur Rehman said the religious parties would protest the demolitions on Wednesday.

They said the CDA had issued notices for removal of mosques that had been built even before the creation of Pakistan. They claimed that Madni Mosque had been constructed in the early 1980s with the approval of the CDA.

General Ziaul Haq, the then chief executive of the country who encouraged the building of seminaries during his term, had issued directives for the construction of this mosque.

They claimed that the CDA had given legal status to Christian slums and churches which had been built on encroached land, and the authority was discriminating against the seminaries by demolishing them. They said the CDA also did not cut a tree in Sector E-10 because it was revered by Buddhists.
(taken from daily times, site is restricting me from posting urls)

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: CDA Bulldozing Illegally constructed Mosques in Islamabad

Croquet by your own line of reasoning this is a theory of one reporter, all heresay. This situation has been under investigation since atleast 2002.

legal status has been given to slums in karachi too, the whole katchi abadis deal so thats not a big deal.

anyways, I guess its a moot point because the govt has backed off pretty much..oh well.

[hareem01]

Re: Musharaf Buildozing Mosques in Islamabad

harm is being reduced the harm to the ******s (theives) is being reduced by govt bending over backwards to give them land elsewhere. That is more than enough.

Just because justice against these darhyal chors was not done in years does not mean justice is not needed.

Its not the govt's respnsibility to provide replacements for illegal buildings. the fact that they are even doing that is enough.

as far as challenging logic goes, answer one simple question

Is stealing land allowed or not, whether it is for a masjid a disco or a paan ka khokha. lets see your.....logic

Stealing land is not allowed ... but first you have to prove it is stolen ...

[hareem01]

Re: Musharaf Buildozing Mosques in Islamabad

You may not have asked those women to protest but you are the one defending thier tactics--not their purpose by saying at first that you see no bamboo sticks, then saying oh they (danda bardars) are few in number, then shifting over to oh how peaceful they look and finally the argument that the children can wait because there are other more important issues.

My point is simply this: Bullying, Lying and aggression is not the right way to register a protest. The Ahadith about not bringing harm apply here too showing that the actions taken by these ladies is not right. There is no way Islam supports such actions.Therefore they are harming their cause by doing wrong things and invalidating thier protest anyway.

I'll say it again sometimes there is no other way to respond. You know millions of people have demonstrated outside UK government institutes to remove the troops from Iraq, but no one listens, because the peaceful demos serve their purpose - i.e. to vent ill feeling. The ruling elite have no intention to listen.

They are made to listen when people protest in the case with the library.

The demos are fake protests for this reason. Demos are only effective for empathic and sympathetic leaders. Not dictatorial or hedgemonistic leaders. A peace march would not get the news coverage that the library situation has got, that is because the library situation can be swung to favour the commisars. But it is the dissidents who bid the best for the country and not for their pockets who are shown as illogical and savage, because the media ... the Pakistani media is in a spin direction which counters the Islamic direction.

Islam is here for good ... it is about time we give it the preference over our own desires.

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Musharaf Buildozing Mosques in Islamabad

@hareem01

Stealing land is not allowed ... but first you have to prove it is stolen ...

what is the supposed punishment of theft in shariah?

[mufakkar]

Re: Musharaf Buildozing Mosques in Islamabad

I'll say it again sometimes there is no other way to respond. You know millions of people have demonstrated outside UK government institutes to remove the troops from Iraq, but no one listens, because the peaceful demos serve their purpose - i.e. to vent ill feeling. The ruling elite have no intention to listen.

They are made to listen when people protest in the case with the library.

The demos are fake protests for this reason. Demos are only effective for empathic and sympathetic leaders. Not dictatorial or hedgemonistic leaders. A peace march would not get the news coverage that the library situation has got, that is because the library situation can be swung to favour the commisars. But it is the dissidents who bid the best for the country and not for their pockets who are shown as illogical and savage, because the media ... the Pakistani media is in a spin direction which counters the Islamic direction.

Islam is here for good ... it is about time we give it the preference over our own desires.

Blah blah blah...so basically lying and bullying are acceptable forms of protest for you.

[picoico]

Re: Musharaf Buildozing Mosques in Islamabad

@Fraudz

1- prove he is qadiani

2- prove that those buildngs were built on property they owned and not encroaching on public or private property

If a structure is older than the state of Pakistan itself, then something is clearly wrong on the government side....

[ravage]

Re: CDA Bulldozing Illegally constructed Mosques in Islamabad

^ not necessarily, if the land existed before Pakistan came into being so did the system for getting land legally, atleast in cities.

to give you an example, after partition a whole bunch of people came over and they just didnt sit on any land and say it was theirs, people were assigned land according to the land they held before partition. so if they had ever obtained the land legally, they would have documents for it.

[hareem01]

Re: Musharaf Buildozing Mosques in Islamabad

what is the supposed punishment of theft in shariah?

You know what is it and you also know Pakistan don't have shariah.

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: CDA Bulldozing Illegally constructed Mosques in Islamabad

^ not necessarily, if the land existed before Pakistan came into being so did the system for getting land legally, atleast in cities.

to give you an example, after partition a whole bunch of people came over and they just didnt sit on any land and say it was theirs, people were assigned land according to the land they held before partition. so if they had ever obtained the land legally, they would have documents for it.

exactly.

[Croquet]

Re: CDA Bulldozing Illegally constructed Mosques in Islamabad

i guess i feel a little apprehensive about why so particular about masjid being on legal /illegal land when as you said there are whole lot of other settlements(which could be removed without any controversy,infact at some places population is begging to be rid of qabza group). Government - if has the proof- should not shy away from putting it out for public through media. i am sure they asked the imam of faisal masjid to clear their (govt's) stance regarding blair's arrival and emptying out the masjid.Did this entire dispute even went to court, where government had to proof the entitlement of the land? Or does the government has court's verdict to back up their argument.Pakistani's afterall have much reason to be skeptical about our government's motive.