Ok don’t get all defensive i am only interested in knowing whats hindu belief considering casts. And on what criteria some casts are better than others. So if knowledgable hindu is around enlighten me please.
What do you know about castesystem? and its origin? what has it to do with hinduism par se?? did you know that even today castesysystem is practised in Japan and Thailand, and none of them consider themselves hindus.
I dont support it!! its a primitive practice.
jest wondering why should you make such sweeping statements about others.
^ umm.. he just merely asked a question regarding hindu caste system. i dont think he was trying to insult anyone here.
khair this is from a book i read about religions, " caste system represent biological view of life. It has two meanings which is a paradox in it self. first, it suggests the organic unity of life on other hand it is a symbol of desire of separateness with each group in its own place, not eating or mating outside the small unit. Ancient classification of society had four great orders, Brahmins being the head of all castes and "untouchables" the lower most caste. It is a question of relative purity and impurity."
Book is called, " many peoples, many faith" by Robert S Ellwood and Barbara A. Mc Graw.
p.s the practice is illegal in India today.
p.s i appologize in advance if i have said anything incorrect here.
Dear Wise, For your information all four casts of Hindus are further divided into sub casts. Like, upper Brahmin and lower Brahmin, and the low casts also have different categories.
Many from our Hindu side may give you bigotry reasons, but very frankly this system is worst than racism.
Though in 20th century Hindus in general have progressed a lot, but caste feelings remain in mind, blood and heart.
wise man / suroor,
Cultures of India and Persia cross-pollinated each other., 5,000 years ago.
The Indian dieties originating in Iran, there was a tribe called the Mittani in Central Asia who worshipped distinctly Hindu (not Avestan) gods, such as Indra and Varuna. So IMO the flow of religion could have been from west.
The Zend Avesta is beleived to be older than the Rigveda.
The Rigveda was originally written in the Kharoshti script that, like Persian which was written from right to left. Actually Devanagri was the fifth script used for Indian texts. After Kharoshti came Brahmi Lipi, somewhat similar to the 'pinman' Akkadian script of ancient Babylon, then Pali and Gupta Lipi. The distinctive 'washing on a line' Devanagri script only emerged after the 6th century AD.
So Sanskrit was not strictly the mother of languages — it was actually the daughter of an older language similar if not identical to the now forgotten Old Persian.
I know its offtopic for you, but the pt i am making is- the four main caste were practised by persians even before it found its way to India. Many common words in the Hindu lexicon like Aryavarta, Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra can only be understood from a reading of the Persian Zend Avesta. The word Aryavarta, or land of the Aryas, seems to have evolved from the Avestan words Aryenem Vaego.
With Persians embrassing Zorastrianism, much of the caste system was wipped out from persian soceity. Though few relics still remain amongst the iranians even today.
But castesystem remained and got groomed in neighbouring India. With Manu smiti it even got enforced as the social order. Ofcause there were voices or rebel from within, which culminated into new phylosophy of casteless hinduism such as Jainism, Buddhism and later on as Bhakti movement.
To think that only Islam brought equality concept to India is totally wrong. Gautum Buddha and Mahavir had already shown vision of Equality to indians even before Islam was born.
Ofcause, i dont refute that caste system dose not exist in India today, it does, and has developed into a political compulsion and camps.
Interestingly, the rghtwing Hindu fundus are against it, and leftwing secular parties are for it!!
Dont get surprised, thats indian politics!!
Btw, castesystem was also largely practiced by copts, greeks, sumerians, chinese and japanese its still practised]....
and India or hinduism has nothing to do with it!
And its not as evil as you tend to think,
but impractical in todays context.
Urbanization, economic development, and industrialization benefit Untouchables by breaking down caste barriers. In the cities of India members of different castes are constantly in close contact and forced to interact with one another which helps to weaken the strict rules of the caste system. as country becomes more industrial caste sysytem
will weaken. agricutrual society encourages feudalism
is it an integral part of your religion or just something that you can do away with piecemeal without changing anything else.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
is it an integral part of your religion or just something that you can do away with piecemeal without changing anything else.
[/QUOTE]
it more racial than religous but it is given relgious cover after aryans
from north saw the native people. there is no more aryans they all
mixed with local people now . they dont look like cetral asians now
even htough they came from central asia. kashmiri muslim have
nothing to do with dalit muslims living in bihar so it not just about
religen.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rvikz: *
it more racial than religous but it is given relgious cover after aryans
from north saw the native people. there is no more aryans they all
mixed with local people now . they dont look like cetral asians now
even htough they came from central asia.
[/QUOTE]
i see. although im not sure if you're familiar with maharishi vedavision (:) i used to watch it because i found the old guy hilarious in a non-offensive way). i seem to remember him giving some caste based stories. What is the pundit-view on this?
[QUOTE]
kashmiri muslim have
nothing to do with dalit muslims living in bihar so it not just about
religen.
[/QUOTE]
i dont see how that is relevant to the question?
[QUOTE]
it more racial than religous but it is given relgious cover after aryansfrom north saw the native people. there is no more aryans they allmixed with local people now . they dont look like cetral asians now
even htough they came from central asia.
[/QUOTE]
local ppl? hope, you dont mean dravids.
aryans came from central asia, and dravids migrated from mesopotamia.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by soul: *
local ppl? hope, you dont mean dravids.
aryans came from central asia, and dravids migrated from mesopotamia.
[/QUOTE]
native people mean tribals belonging to austaloid then came
dravidians and last group from central asia. three groups mixed
in varying degree.
Aus•tra•loid
Pronunciation: (ô'stru-loid"), [key]
—n.
Anthropol.a descriptive category including principally the Australian Aborigines and sometimes including Papuans, Melanesians, various small-statured peoples, as Negritos, of the Philippines, Malay Peninsula, and Andaman Islands, and some of the tribes of central and southern India.
[QUOTE]
native people mean tribals belonging to austaloid then came
dravidians and last group from central asia. three groups mixed
in varying degree.
[/QUOTE]
yes, my friend, you are right.
but today the original native indians are found only on Andamans and nicobar.
And are edging towards extinction.
They are not founded in mainland india.
Nope! not adivasis either
{inappropriate image + tag is not allowed -5Abi}
Various native tribes and their populations:
ONGE: Population 95
ANDAMANESE: Population 44
JARAWA: Population 300
NICOBARESE: Population 26,261*
SENTINELESE: Population 100
SHOMPEN: Population 300*
sorry, if i am diverting the topic.
All i say here, is native indians never had a caste based society.
It was imported culture along with dravids and aryans.
BTW, caste system is not that evil, gr8 civilizations were based on it.
Its out lived its use, and should be dumped for good.
But than laloo and mayavati will be out of job! alas!
Soul dude i didnot mean any offence and was not trying to offend hinduism. Anyways i apologize if you found it offending.
Ok now question time.
I got two impressions from your posts. One that casts are not actually a part of hindu religion, which means that religion has got nothing to do with these sects or atleast main stream religion. Second impression was that the division between classes was actually introduced in india from other population.
And what does it mean that its illegal in india today? I could be wrong but an indian mate told me that only brahmins can be prime ministers. So if thats true than it defies the illegal part.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Wise One: *
Soul dude i didnot mean any offence and was not trying to offend hinduism. Anyways i apologize if you found it offending.
Ok now question time.
I got two impressions from your posts. One that casts are not actually a part of hindu religion, which means that religion has got nothing to do with these sects or atleast main stream religion. Second impression was that the division between classes was actually introduced in india from other population.
And what does it mean that its illegal in india today? I could be wrong but an indian mate told me that only brahmins can be prime ministers. So if thats true than it defies the illegal part.
[/QUOTE]
brahmins according to cast system cant be kings only kshatriya
can be kings and soldiers. brahmins cnat hold any other jobs excpet
priests and advisers to kings. so these practises are outdated.
how can you live as preists in modern economy.
[QUOTE]
Soul dude i didnot mean any offence and was not trying to offend hinduism. Anyways i apologize if you found it offending.
[/QUOTE]
oh! you have not offened me....besides iam not a hindu, for the 10000th time.
[QUOTE]
I got two impressions from your posts. One that casts are not actually a part of hindu religion, which means that religion has got nothing to do with these sects or atleast main stream religion.
[/QUOTE]
Hindu word itself comes from Persian invasion of indus valley. The original religion that you describe as Hinduism was than called 'DHARMA'.
Well, caste system was not a part of Dharma, but it was bought in as a political system. And as its always been difficult to keep two seperate, so somewhere during Ram's rule, it entered the mainstream indian life, with proper code of caste system - 'Manu's Smiti' getting enforced. Now, we are talking about 5,000BC. In that era and in that context, 'Manu smiti' was the best code produced....Its a different matter that the same book is burnt today in india by dalits, to vent out their steam.
So in that sense, MANU SMITI was never a holy book, and never a word of GOD, neither was hinduism based on it. With or without that CODE, hinduism still remains the same.
There was Hinduism even before RAM, so even if you take out RAM from it, it would still remain the same. After all, Ram devotion only started in 10AD, before that Ram was known just as another king.
[QUOTE]
Second impression was that the division between classes was actually introduced in india from other population.
[/QUOTE]
True, It didnt originate here...It was brought in by indians from other cultures they traded or invaded.
As i told you, even Sanskrit has its origin in Persian avestan script.
The Greeks, Copts[egyptians], Sumerians[Mesopotamia] already practised caste-class system....it was the back bone of their civilization.
Could Egyptians produced Wonders like pyramids without Slaves??
Ofcause,they all had slaves, farmer, warrior and master culture.
It was a political order. It was not essencially evil....it was realistic.
[QUOTE]
And what does it mean that its illegal in india today?
[/QUOTE]
Yes, according to our constitution, its illegal to practice caste system....
But than, that on paper....everyone knows, political parties in India thrive on them.
[QUOTE]
I could be wrong but an indian mate told me that only brahmins can be prime ministers
[/QUOTE]
Yes indeed you are totally wrong...who ever that somebody is, knows nothing about indian culture and politics.
Well reality check for your somebody-
Who wrote Ramayan?
Valmiki.
Who was Valmiki?
A dalit.
Who wrote The constitution of Independent India?
Baba saheb Ambedkar.
Who was Baba saheb Ambedkar?
A dalit.
Who was Narayanan?
The former President of India.
What was his qualifications?
A scholar of 15 languages.
What washis caste?
A dalit.
If ramayan can be written by a dalit,
and brahmins quotes slokh from it.
If the constitution of India, whose oath is taken by the President and PM of india can be written by a dalit,
If the president of the country, which is the highest office, can be entrusted to a dalit, tell me what holds a dalit from becomming a PM??
BTW,who are Laloo, Mayavati, Gehlot, Karunanidhi, Narendra mody to name few??
They are Chief ministers of indian states....and all are dalits.
30% of indian population are Dalits,3% of hindus are brahmins.
You think those 3% brahmins sway any power.
In democracy, numbers counts.
And btw, if you still have doubts, Vajpayee is a Kshatriya, the middle order, not a brahmin. He is a nonveg, and an alcoholic to booth.
My neighbor was a schedule caste IAS. He deliberately purchased matches for his son and daughter in poor upper cast families and got them settled in States. He used to say that he knew what it was to be a schedule cast in India. Though a top rank govt officer, he had to keep a separate glass for drinking water in office.
Off course Hindus have really progressed a lot, but very few of them will say a complete ‘No’ to caste system.
C'mon face it-
Fact -1. We are not born equal.
step into the real world.
Fact-2. Inequality is practised in all cultures....
all over the world, today as well as in the past.
Fact-3. It was introduced in our human soceity, way back in the age of Cancer ie. around the time our ancesters were cavemen.
Fact-4. We can never do away with it, untill the doomsday, so dont even waste your energy over it. And pleeeeeeeese stop whinning.
Fact-5. - see it with open mind and all of us in any part of the world, cutting across culture/religion, directly or indirectly practice inequality....in all spheres of activities.
Fact-6. PPl who talk about equality, are daydreamers or drug addicts.
Ah well if you are not hindu i cannot understand which way you found it discriminating. I mean it was a question i didnot pass a judgement.
Besides this thread has really gone the other way around i wanted to know about the casts which are there (like how many of them). And what is the reason behind some being better than others (big why).