Case Against Ahmedi Muslims Is Weak And Hypocritical

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

The case against Ahmedi Muslims is weak. I have read some of the arguments that take place here. And frankly I have not heard anything that would compel me to Declare them as Kafirs.
The finality of the Prophet is not an issue that should determine salvation. There are no direct indications in the Quran that suggest this.
After the death of the Prophet several men and one woman claimed prophethood. They were clearly imposters because they renounced Prophet Mohommad and claimed Divine Guidance.
The Ahmedis on the other hand are not in opposition to Prophet Mohommad. They equally request and cherish the greatness of this Man.They do not challenge the divine guidance received by the Prophet.
Why on earth Is Pakistan Killing them?
The Reason Pakistan was made was to protect people from Relegious persecution. The Objective of the state was to relieve people from Relegious persecution.
Why did The Criminal Bhutto allow the goverment to pass legislative action on the spiritual Status of Ahmedis?
What gives any one the right to declare the other a Kafir?
This has actualy become a human rights issue. Ahmedis have been killed for Saying “SalamAlaikum”
One doctor was Torn to peices because he was an Ahmedi.
The least we can do as educated people on this forum is to condemn attacks on Minorities and show contempt for those who wish to play the Judgmental Role asigned for GOD.

Sunni Stud.

2

Thank you for your support Stud!

MIRZA YASIR

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3

I am in your support too Stud thats only Allah's job to determine who is real and who is a fake muslim and remember Allah is closer than you think so get real people you are just fooling your selves Allah cannot be fooled .

4

Iron is Right. The fundamental principal is humility. That goes down the drain when a human atempts to aquire the position of God.

Stud

5

I agree that we are not here to judge each other, and I have a very open mind when it comes to Ahmadis, but upon doing some research I found out that of the two branches of Ahmadis (The Qadianis and the Ahmadiyyat Lahore Movement) one of these groups doesn't thing we are TRUE Muslims.. thats their way of calling us non Muslims. Just something to keep in mind.

6

Mr. Just…

Your research is wrong. We Ahmadis think that anybody who calls himself muslim, is a muslim. No exception. I posted an essay (in past) regarding the differences between Lahori/Qadiani Ahmadis. Please read it.

MIRZA YASIR

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7

Dear Mr. Yasir

My research comes from a web page that was put up by the Lahore Ahmadiyyat Movement (www.muslim.org)

You can find the information I found at this address:

http://www.muslim.org/qadis/takfir1.htm

If this information is mistaken, then you really should inform these people that you believe something else.

8

The legal injunctions to kill apostates was questioned in the middle ages, it was in fact abolished after critical reivew by the Ottaman territories before the middle of the nineteenth century and famous Muslim reformer Rashid Rida believed it was a political matter concerning the seventh century and had no consequence for the present day.

The Qur'an itself states that there should be no compulsion in matters of religion (la ikraha fid-din - 2:256). So there is no question that killing individuals on the basis of blasphemy or apostacy is against Islam.

Unfortunately people in power like to subvert religion to keep others disempowered. This is the case with minorities in Pakistan. Use every tool, including religion to keep them powerless. Practices like these should be denounced by all Muslims. Critically analyzing newly emerging (and past) Islamic movements is one thing, but controlling their behavior, forcing them to submit to your interpretation of "Islam" and systematically killing them off is quite another.

Thanks for reminding us Stud!

Achtung ;)

9

we as ahmadis strongly believe that it is merely god, who is to decide who is a "muslim" and who is a "true muslim". i have no idea in this regard about the belief of lahori group in this regard.

very soon, inshallah, i will uncover some inside stuff about the case, how different scholars defined a "muslim" and how this case was not only weak but also, self-contradictary.

So be on watch for a day when heaven shall bring a manifest smoke
covering the people; this is a painful chastisement. 'O our lord remove thou from us, the chastisement; we are believers.' How should they have the reminder? seeing a clear Messenger has already come to them, then they turned away from him, and said,' A man, tutored, possessed!"
( the koran, verse 11-14, chapter 44, Smoke, the nuclear explosion.)

10

Mr. Iqadeer,

Thank you for providing me the reference. But if you go to that page, there is a link to the scanned pages from the original book of Hazrat Mirza Mahmoud Ahmad RA. On page 85 there is a highlighted part, under that highlighted please read that he has said that they are not kafir- bi-allah, but kafir bil-mamoor. Kufar just means jhoot, so if you don’t accept that mamoor, you are denying a person sent by Allah. So he only said that you people are kafir-bil-mamoor.

MIRZA YASIR

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11

It remains irelevant what the Ahmedis think of our Spiritual Status. What concerns me is that our personal veiws on their faith have found Legislative expression. Our personal prejudice has found a permanent home in The Goverment Of Pakistan.
If the Shias in Iran pass a law declaring all Sunnis as Kafir it would be the same thing.
What if all the Ismailis in Hunza declare all sunnis as Kafir in that valley.
Where does this end?
It should not have started to begin with.

Stud

12

Mr. Yasir

I would just like to point out that it was not me who provided the reference but rather Just passing through. By the way, it is haraam near sunnis to kill someone solely because of their beliefs. If that were the case, not a single non muslim would have ever remained on the soil where muslims ever ruled. Referring back to Mr. Jewels' comments that Ahmadis strongly believe that it is merely God, who is to decide who is a "muslim" and who is a "true muslim". The distinction being made here is between muslims and non muslims. I strongly believe that we must have a clear defination as to what really constitutes Islamic beliefs. Also, this must have its roots come out directly from the Quran and traditions of the prophet. And according to sunni scholars anyone who believes in the unity of Allah and finality of Mohammad's (peace be upon him) message is technically a "muslim".

[This message has been edited by iqadeer (edited April 09, 1999).]

13

I think every body knows that when Muslima declared to be a prophet, the Sahaba RAA fought a Jihad against her and her followers.

So will all the people here condem the Sahaba RAA for what they did? How did Sahaba knew that Muslima is a Liar and not prophet ?

The answer is simple, they knew that there is no Messanger or Prophet after Mohammed Ibn Abdulla SAW from Quran and from the sayings of Prophet SAW and that Prophet SAW has already warned us of the Liars who will claim to be prophets of God.

Now the simple answer to the question that who is a muslim. A muslim is the one who believes in Quran (in each and every word of it).
So ultimately he believes in the Oneness of God, the Prophet SAW, the angels, the books, the prophets/messangers, the day of judgement, taqdeer, the finality of prophethood, the sunnah of prophet SAW, the rights of women, the prohibitation of interest, and each and everything in the Quran.

The one who believes in the whole quran except a word is not muslim because if he rejects a word he rejects the whole quran.

14

Abdulla said,

>he one who believes in the whole quran except a word is not muslim because if he rejects a word he rejects the whole quran.<

Abdulla sahib why are you forgetting about the Ayaats which sunnis have canceled. The crap of **Nasikh and Mansookh **

MIRZA YASIR

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15

Neither sunnis nor shias or anyone else can make any cancellations / additions in the quran. Allah SWT has taken the responsibility of its protection. If someone thinks that Quran is altered, he rejects the Quranic verse in which Allah SWT says that He has sent this Quran and He is the protector of it.

16

Bismihi Ta'la
Assalam o alaikum

Just wanted to get an understanding of the word 'kufar'. It was implied that 'kufar', just means jhoot. My limited understanding of the urdu, tells me that jhoot means a 'lie'. The word kufar comes from the root word k-f-r and when we speak of kufr or kufar it implies a willful disposition on behalf of the person to deliberately hide the truth. Am I right?

Of course, the in-evitability of the claim of Ghulam Ahmed, puts the Ahmadi muslims in a predicament: at on end, those who accept to Prophethood of Ghulam Ahmed are infact at terms with those who have denied his Prophethood. And surely, the denial of the prophethood of Ghulam Ahmed tantamounts to kufr, since if his claim is true then we have denied a nabi and hence attained eternal damnation. As to the denial of those who reject the appointee, what was the fate of those who had rejected the messengers?

To the Ahmadies, I am one who is a kafir, since I reject outright the claim of Ghulam Ahmed. If there is anything else that you can add to it, then let me know.

The more I ponder over the futility of the end of Prophethood, more from a social context, it makes more sense to accept the end of Prophethood.

Anyways, I leave you all to discuss.

-- Ali Abbas

[This message has been edited by AliAbbas (edited April 12, 1999).]

17

ssaalllaaaam ....

Looks like whole ahmedi family is here.Didnt mean to offend u guys...anywa....could any of you in very simple and very easy words tell us your belifes very simply ok then i ll shall post my reply if ahmedis are muslims or not! Thank u!

JaaWaN

18

Dear jawaan,

please explain which verse of the koran has given any muslim or non muslim human being to decide whether a certain sect is muslim or nonmuslim?
who exactly are you to decide this?
please explain, and support your explanation from koranic verses.

dear i qadeer:

"I strongly believe that we must have a clear defination as to what really constitutes Islamic beliefs. Also, this must have its roots come out directly from the Quran and traditions of the prophet."

reminds me of the interesting remarks by justice muneer. when he asked your sunni scholars to define what a muslim is, they said, we want some time to make a definition.
justice muneer replied:
" you have already been given 1400 years to get to a definition of muslims. it is not possible for the court to give any more time than that!"

". And according to sunni scholars anyone who believes in the unity of Allah and finality of Mohammad's (peace be upon him) message is technically a "muslim". "

this is a very faulty statment. do u want to know how sunni scholars have defined islam?
Here is how different scholars defined a "muslim", while being questioned by justice muneer, in the 1953 case against ahmadis:

-) maulana abu-ul-hasnaat mohammad ahmed qadri:
" should believe on
(1) oneness of god,
(2) mohammad's prophethood,
(3) accept mohammad as the last prophet,
(4)believes that koran was revealed from allah thru prophet mohammad,
(5) should accept the orders given by prophet mohammad, and
(6) believe in the doomsday."

( maulana sahab has not told us what verses of koran he used to make this definition. also note that he did not mention
(a) beleif in ALL divine books,
(b) beleif in ALL prophets,
(c) beleif in the angels.
- jewels)

-) maulana ahmed ali saheb, ( jamiat ulma-e-islam )

"if someone
(1) believes in the koran
(2) hadith of prophet mohammad
then he is a muslim, even if he does not believe in anything else."

( maulana sahab, have just cleaned off ALL other aspects of islamic faith. -jewels)

-) maulana ( so called )"abu-ul-ala", modoodi:

"the one who believes in
(1) oneness of allah,
(2) believes in ALL prophets,
(3) believes in ALL divine books,
(4) believes in angels, and
(5) believes in the doomsday,
is a muslim."

( note that this definition does not hold ANY valid point to call ahmadis as nonmuslims. -jewels)

question: " is this all enough for being called a muslim?"

reply: "yes!"

question: " if someone believes in all five of these points, does someone have a right to call him a non muslim? "

reply: "no! but anyone who does not accept these five values, is a non muslim"

( note that according to this statment of modoodi, the previous scholars i mentioned, become non muslims!!! -jewels)

-) ghazi siraajuddin:

" the one who says the kalima and follows prophet mohammad is a muslim!"

despite repeatedly being questioned, he said that anyone who does not FOLLOW mohammad in ALL walks of life is a nonmuslim.

-) mufti mohammad idrees ( jamia ashrafiya ):

he, after a long speech said,
" a muslim is the one who believes in all needs of the religion"

when questioned about those needs of religion, he replied, " they are so many, that it is almost impossible for me to tell all of them.

-) maulana ali kandhalwi:

he said that someone who "acts upon the needs of religion in the light of the sayings of prophet mohammad " is a muslim.

( note that he talked not about BELIEVES but about ACTING UPON the believes.)

question: " what are those needs of religion?"

answer: " the needs of religion are those needs which all muslims know, whether or not they are scholars!"

( as if this is all a JOKE! shame for the molvis! -jewels)

question: " please count us all those needs of religion."

answer: " i do not know! i am not capable of counting them all!"

( note what these molvis are saying. and keep in mind that they are the ones who are the CREAM of the anti-ahmadiyya agitation! - jewels)

-) maulana mohammad ahsen islaahi:

" there are two types of muslims
1) true muslims
2) political muslims

political muslims should believe in:

1) oneness of allah,
2) the finality of prophethood
3) all good and bad is from allah
4) the "aakhirat"
5) koran as the last book
6) hajj
7) zakaat
8) namaaz
9) the other laws of islamic society
10) fasting

( maulana sahab has eaten up the belief in angels, or probabaly didnt feel it necessary! - jewels)

question: " do we only have to BELIEVE in them?"

answer " yes, mere BELEIF in them is enough for being a political muslim. those who act upon them are "true muslims".

==========

now you yourself can analyze your statment about what sunni molvis believe! you yourself can realize that no definition of a muslim is possible.

or otherwise, with the definitions given above, each molvi makes all other molvix, non muslims!

we must not foret the hadith that "anyone who calls a kalima-sayer, a kafir, is a kafir himself."

19

jewels said,

we must not foret the hadith that "anyone who calls a kalima-sayer, a kafir, is a kafir himself." <

Please post a reference to this hadith and make sure you quote it in its "entirety". Thanks.

20

Mr.Abdulla,

Its a fact that sunni ulema canceled some ayaat of Quran or I should say some aehkamat of Quran. I can provide you the exact references

MIRZA YASIR

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