Can someone please substantiate/confirm

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Can someone please substantiate/confirm

@vroom

Psyah is not sure so lets leave him to study, However I have some things to say

That was not a Barelvi site, it was a site of people who follow traditional Islam, a group from Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah. So they are similar in beliefs, and they can be called barelvi but only in certain contexts

You label that site, so you must have a label for yourself, no? Tell us what group you belong to

Respected brother pysah is a scholarly person and is careful and cautious before he commits himself to write and I have noted that he weighs the matter and tries to take on board what has been stated by others.

Tacitly you have agreed that the site is Barelvi – but doesn’t meet up to your standard.

On this board you have proudly labelled yourself as a staunch Barelvi.

I’ll tell you what I am not. I am not a Barelvi (highly influenced by Shiaism easily excitable and intolerant) and neither a Salafi (very rigid a bit of arrogance and intolerant)

The Blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) pronounced a firm warning, “Never be extreme regarding religion. Many nations have been destroyed before you only because of extremism in religion.” (Nisaai; Ibn Majah)

@vroom

“…Now another group has sprung up, seeking recognition by using scientific knowledge as the basis for Iman (faith). Anything contrary to their understanding of science is discarded from their principles of faith…”
“…Can these people who are influenced by the new innovators in religion, the Wahabi/Salafi movement, …”

The wahabi/salafi movement is an innovation, a brand new one at that. Currently they are playing imam to the people described above, and there is proof in this thread for that

The latest group that sprang was Barelvism less than a century ago!

Ahmed Raza Khan Barelvi Born: 14 june 1856 AD or 10 Shawwal 1272 AH in Muhallah Jasoli Bareilly, UP - Died: 28 October 1921 AD or 25 Safar 1340 AH in Bareilly, UP

@vroom

There is no Shadow at Midday, so it must be interpreted

Mohsin khan has even included this point as part of his translation of the Quran:
Have you not seen how your Lord spread the shadow. If He willed, He could have made it still - But We have made the sun its guide (i.e. after the sunrise, the shadow shrinks and vanishes at midnoon and then again appears in the afternoon with the decline of the sun, and had there been no sunlight, there would have been no shadow). Al-Furqan 45

The hadith must mean the outline of The Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam,

If this is half valid it means it is a proof for the Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam Not having a Shadow, since the midday is prominently mentioned. Remember two of the hadiths sighted mention no shadow on the floor, specifically floor

This particular hadith recorded by Imam Ahmad could, could, even be proof for the belief depending on some specifics that we do not know. Its certainly not a straight forward rebuttal of the belief

No shadow at Midday? This is only possible it there is no Sun (cloudy day)!

Please try this. Go out in the sun at Midday and look under your feet – Lo! You will see your shadow. If you want experiment a bit further, lift one of your legs and move it about and you’ll be amazed to see your shadow responding to your actions.

Mohsin khan has even included this point as part of his translation of the Quran:

Have you not seen how your Lord spread the shadow. If He willed, He could have made it still - But We have made the sun its guide (i.e. after the sunrise, the shadow shrinks and vanishes at midnoon and then again appears in the afternoon with the decline of the sun, and had there been no sunlight, there would have been no shadow). Al-Furqan 45
I wish you would follow Mohsin Khan in other matters too as you do here in this matter. (Mind you, he has put that in brackets – not part of the translation)

See the link below - it has all translation of the said ayah

al-Furqan 25:45

From the same site I have got the translation of Ahmed Raza Khan (Barelvi)

'O beloved! Have you not seen your Lord that how He has spread the shadow? And if He had willed, He would have made it stationary, then We have made the sun guide over it.

No mention of shadow disappearing in Midday, right?

Funny enough the site has** Mohsin khan & Ahmed Raza Khan (Barelvi)** under the following category!

Controversial, deprecated, or status undetermined works

@vroom

The hadith must mean the outline of The Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam,
If this is half valid it means it is a proof for the Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam Not having a Shadow, since the midday is prominently mentioned. Remember two of the hadiths sighted mention no shadow on the floor, specifically floor
This particular hadith recorded by Imam Ahmad could, could, even be proof for the belief depending on some specifics that we do not know. Its certainly not a straight forward rebuttal of the belief

The hadith is simple and straightforward – take it as it is.

So what if midday is mentioned? If the sun was out the shadow has to be there.

Shadows always fall on the ground unless the sun is at an angle so the shadow will fall on the wall for instance if one is standing next to it.

If some specifics of hadith are not known to you, why then are you speculating to its meaning and twisting it to your agenda?

@vroom

There is actually alot more then just these scholars, however the Ahlus Sunnah list a few people as to validate/substantiate the position

Interesting use of the christian calendar, to make them seem ‘‘latter day’’
‘‘I want it from Imam Abu Hanifa?’’ Issues of virtues and history are not expected to come from every source, although some of them names are narrators on a similar topics. I have heard their names in sanads of Noor Narrations

Which calendar do you use at present time in your daily life?

The Hejirah date starts from 622 AD – All you got to do is to minus 622 from the dates given and your will arrive at approximate hejirah date. This will show you that these scholars are far away for first three generations! I have done it for you, does it make them nearer to the first three generations! NO!

Qadi Iyad ibn Musa (1083–1149) 461AH 527AH
Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rūmī (1207 – 17 December 1273) 585 – 651AH
Shihab al-Din Abu’l-Abbas Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr al-Qastallani 1448 – 1517 = 826 – 895AH
Sheikh Abdul Haq Muhaddith Dehlawi also known as Al Muhaddith Sheikh Abdul Haq Dehlavi was born in 1551 = 929AH

I did not make Imam Abu Hanifah (rahmullah) specific – but all his contemporaries or thereabouts.

@vroom

The mushrikeen were deaf dumb and blind. They couldn’t even see miracles were happening around them all the time, lack of a Shadow could easily go missed by them

You are wrong. The Mushrikeen could see the miracles around them but denied them as sheer magic or witchcraft.

They challenged the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) to split the moon. They saw the splitting of the moon and yet denied it. Claiming it was magic!

There is incidence when Abu Jahal who always eager to outwit hid some pebbles in his fists and challenged the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) to tell him what he was holding in his hands.

The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) replied: “I will better than that. The things that you are holding in your hands will tell you about me”!

Everyone within the earshot heard loud and clear the voice coming from the clenched fists of Abu Jahal: “You are Muhammad the Messenger of Allah”

Abu Jahal threw the pebbles aside and hurried off shouting. “Sheer magic”

Please don’t ask me for reference as I read this long time ago.

Most of the Mushrikeen of Makkah did not remain deaf dumb and blind for long, most of them become Muslims. Many Islamic heroes are from this lot.
Guidance is from Allah Almighty only.

@vroom

I don’t even look out for shadows, if i saw a group of people or even a single person - I could easily miss it if one of them did not have Shadow. It’s certainly not something that i look out for

This only proves that you are not very observant person. Or you are too occupied mentally thinking how to respond to the posts here or wherever you post.

Earlier you had stated the following:

I believe in the Noor of The Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam, and that He SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam is Nur of Allah. This is my Aqeedah, and Im bound by it - so any texts which suggest otherwise would be interpreted by me to suggest pardah, times of lesser and higher pardah, some saw it, some did not, some were able to see it, some not able at all etc etc

Please can enlighten us what exactly you mean when you say “He SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam is Nur of Allah”