Can Pakistan rid itself of religious fanaticism?

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Good question, and I don’t think Pakistan ever get rid of religious fanaticism. In fact, religious fanaticism is going sink Pakistani state…

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/09/AR2011010903417.html

This week, Joe Biden will make his most important foreign trip since he became vice president. He will visit Pakistan, a country that is in crisis at every level - military, political, economic and societal.
Pakistan has long been troubled, but last week’s assassination of Salman Taseer, the country’s most courageous liberal politician, has shone a new and harsh light on those troubles. I had always believed that ultimately, Pakistan’s governing elite was in charge, its military would not allow the country to crumble, and its nuclear arsenal was safe. After last week, I am not so sure.

The most frightening aspect of Taseer’s assassination was that it was carried out by one of his bodyguards, who belonged to an elite unit of the Punjab police trained specifically to fight terrorists. Mumtaz Qadri told his colleagues that he was going to gun down the governor. Not one of them stopped him or informed anyone. The other guards watched as Qadri riddled Taseer’s body with more than 20 bullets and then calmly put down his gun. Reports have emerged that Qadri’s extremist views were known by his superiors and had been reported to higher authorities, but he remained in his job.

It was not the first attack to support the conclusion that jihadists are infiltrating Pakistan’s military, whose long-standing support for militant Islam has created a Frankenstein’s monster. When Pervez Musharraf was president, he survived two assassination attempts by army and air force officers. One of them, Ilyas Kashmiri, a former army commando who has become an al-Qaeda operative, is thought by U.S. intelligence to be as deadly a terrorist leader as Osama bin Laden. In 2007, a Pakistani army officer carried out a suicide bombing against the Pakistani army’s elite Special Services Group.

Just as troubling is that in the wake of the assassination, Pakistan’s liberals and moderates have been silent and scared. Taseer’s only ally in parliament, Sherry Rehman, has gone underground. While mullahs, politicians and even some journalists openly declare that Taseer’s murder was justified because of his liberal views, few speak out in support of him. That is the dilemma of Pakistan’s society: Islamic extremist parties have never gotten more than a few percent of the public’s votes, yet elites bow to the bigots. Taseer was a charismatic and popular politician. His enemies were unelected thugs. He had the votes, but they had the guns. Ever since the 1970s, when then-dictator Muhammad Zia ul-Haq decided that the military gained credibility by allying with Islamic radicals, the country’s political institutions have been deeply compromised by extremism.

And there is the challenge for Biden. He must tell Pakistan’s rulers that this is their moment of truth. They have to go on the offensive and rid their country of the cancer of religious fanaticism. Biden should make clear that the United States supports the democratically elected government, those who urge moderation and peace and those who are willing to fight terrorism. American influence in Islamabad is considerable and played a constructive role in shoring up support for the civilian government last week.
Pakistan’s generals protest that they are fighting terrorists and that the best proof is that they are taking casualties. True. At the highest levels, the military understands that it has to fight Islamic militants. But it continues to try to make distinctions among the terrorists, wavers in its determination and remains obsessed with gaining strategic depth abroad - while its country is going up in flames.
Consider the Afghan Taliban, whose leadership is entirely in the North Waziristan region bordering Afghanistan. The Pakistani army has refused to attack any groups associated with it, claiming to be stretched thin. In fact, Pakistan’s generals still believe that the only way to have influence in Afghanistan is through the Taliban, with which they have had a 20-year partnership.

If Pakistan cannot reverse its downward spiral, the U.S. effort in Afghanistan is doomed. As long as the Taliban and al-Qaeda remain secure and supported in their sanctuaries in Pakistan, progress in Afghanistan will always be temporary. The Taliban could easily withdraw into its Pakistani bases, allow U.S. troops to draw down later this year and then return, rested and rearmed, to renew the battle against the Kabul government. At that point, the United States will face the choice of being forced into another “surge” or continuing the drawdown in the face of a rising Taliban.

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Re: Can Pakistan rid itself of religious fanaticism?

That will never happen unless Pakistan has a Civil war between extremists and moderates

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Re: Can Pakistan rid itself of religious fanaticism?

sadly the mojority which supports the thugs in religious guise will not turn on them until their own a$$ is on the line and i suspect that it'll be too late by then.

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Re: Can Pakistan rid itself of religious fanaticism?

The day Pakistan select to get rid of extra western influence would be the day these religious fanatics would die... overall Pakistani people are not extremist nor does they support the religious fanatics and parties... JI has been there from day one and was not able to perform good in any of the elections, same can be said about other parties, this should be enough evidence to judge the trends of Pakistani People..

Having said that, on the same note, Pakistani people do not like to be westernized or throw away their religious believes... Pakistan have its own culture where religion have played its part to develop certain traditions... these traditions good or bad normally changes with the passage of time and need. imposing and sudden change in these tradition have created something called fascism, where one end is too liberal and westernized ( in the name of moderation) and other end is too religious ( in the name of religion) both are not ready to tolerate each other and among all this the real Pakistani people are been labeled, blamed and demoralized...

Pakistan like any other country, have its own culture, own practices.. my request to all fascist is to leave us alone, there are other ways to make money, do not show us religious fanatics to get aid from west and at same time do not show us LIBERAL to get aid from Saudi kind of countries.

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Re: Can Pakistan rid itself of religious fanaticism?

Another good question would be 'Can Pakistan rid itself of liberal fanaticism'

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Re: Can Pakistan rid itself of religious fanaticism?

خیالی پلاؤ

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Re: Can Pakistan rid itself of religious fanaticism?

The question is can Pakistanis stop being idiots and divide everything into boxes that have no value in real terms. Not everybody is a liberal fascist. Not everybody is a crazy fundamentalists. Most people want jobs, security, a good life for their families. Provide those basic facilities and the rest of you lot who call yourself liberals or religious traditionalists can go kill yourselves off for all we the average people care.

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Re: Can Pakistan rid itself of religious fanaticism?

Can you please define liberal fanaticism in Pakistan, who the major players are, what causes they've advocated and who you would count amongst the significant problem cases Pakistan needs to be rid of?

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I think you’d have a valid point if you could point to single liberal suicide bomber. Btw, what is happening in Pakistan is result of brainwashing of entire generation of people by hypocritical army general, and future doesn’t look good at all. There are suppose to be “educated” people.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/11/world/asia/11pakistan.html?_r=1&hp

Pakistan Faces a Divide of Age on Muslim Law

Aamir Qureshi/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images
Lawyers rallied for Malik Mumtaz Hussain Qadri in Rawalpindi, Pakistan, on Thursday.

   **By [CARLOTTA GALL](http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/g/carlotta_gall/index.html?inline=nyt-per)**

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — Cheering crowds have gathered in recent days to support the assassin who riddled the governor of Punjab with 26 bullets and to praise his attack — carried out in the name of the Prophet Muhammad — as an act of heroism. To the surprise of many, chief among them have been Pakistan’s young lawyers, once seen as a force for democracy.

Their energetic campaign on behalf of the killer has caught the  government flat-footed and dismayed friends and supporters of the slain  politician, Salman Taseer, an outspoken proponent of liberalism who had  challenged the nation’s strict blasphemy laws. It has also confused many  in the broader public and observers abroad, who expected to see a firm  state prosecution of the assassin.

Instead, before his court appearances, the lawyers showered rose petals over the confessed killer, Malik Mumtaz Hussain Qadri, a member of an elite police group who had been assigned to guard the governor, but who instead turned his gun on him. They have now enthusiastically taken up his defense.
It may seem a stark turnabout for a group that just a few years ago looked like the vanguard of a democracy movement. They waged months of protests in 2007 and 2008 to challenge Pakistan’s military dictator after he unlawfully removed the chief justice.
But the lawyers’ stance is perhaps just the most glaring expression of what has become a deep generational divide tearing at the fabric of Pakistani society, and of the broad influence of religious conservatism — and even militancy — that now exists among the educated middle class.
They are often described as the Zia generation: Pakistanis who have come of age since the 1980s, when the military dictator, Gen. Mohammad Zia ul-Haq, began to promote Islam in public education and to use it as a political tool to unify this young and insecure nation.
Today, the forces he set loose have gained such strength that they threaten to overwhelm voices for tolerance in Pakistan’s feeble civilian government. They certainly present a nagging challenge for the United States.
Washington has poured billions of dollars into the Pakistani military to combat terrorism, but has long neglected a civilian effort to counter the inexorable pull of conservative Islam. By now the conservatives have entered nearly every part of Pakistani society, even the rank-and-file security forces, as the assassination showed. The military, in fact, has been conspicuously silent about the killing.
“Over time, Pakistani society has drifted toward religious extremism,” said Hasan Askari Rizvi, a political and defense analyst from Lahore. “This religious sentiment has seeped deep into government circles and into the army and police at lower levels.”
“The lower level are listening to the religious people,” he said.
Indeed, the Pakistan of today, and the brand of Islam much of the nation has embraced, is barely recognizable even to many educated Pakistanis older than the Zia generation. Among them is Athar Minallah, 49, a former cabinet minister and one of the leaders of the lawyers’ protest campaign against Gen. Pervez Musharraf in 2007 and 2008.
Mr. Minallah studied law at Islamic University in Islamabad from 1983 to 1986, and the first lesson any student learned in his day was that the preservation of life was a pillar of Islamic law, he said.
But under General Zia in the 1980s, the government began supporting Islamic warriors to fight the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan and the Indian control of Kashmir, and the syllabus was changed to encourage jihad. The mind-set of students and graduates changed along with it, Mr. Minallah said.
That change is now no more apparent than among the 1,000 lawyers from the capital, Islamabad, and the neighboring city of Rawalpindi, who have given their signed support for the defense of Mr. Qadri, who has been charged with murder and terrorism.
Their leader is Rao Abdur Raheem, 30, who formed a “lawyers’ forum,” called the Movement to Protect the Dignity of the Prophet, in December. The aim of the group, he said, was to counter Mr. Taseer’s campaign to amend the nation’s strict blasphemy laws, which promise death for insulting the Prophet Muhammad.

In interviews, Mr. Raheem and six of his colleagues insisted they were not members of any political or religious party, and were acting independently and interested only in ensuring the rule of law.

All graduates of different Pakistani universities, they insisted they  were liberal, not religious conservatives. Only one had religious  training. They said they had all taken part in the lawyers’ protest  campaign in 2007 and 2008, and that they were proud that the movement  helped reinstate the chief justice.

Yet they forcefully defended Mr. Qadri, saying he had acted on his own, out of strong religious feeling, and they denied that he had told his fellow guards of his plans in advance. He was innocent until proved guilty, they said. They have already succeeded in preventing the government from changing the court venue.
In their deep religious conviction, and in their energy and commitment to the cause of the blasphemy laws, they are miles apart from the older generation of lawyers and law enforcement officials above them.
“I felt this is a different society,” said one former law enforcement official when he saw the lawyers celebrating Mr. Qadri. “There is a disconnect in society.”
The former security official, who has worked in fighting militancy and who requested anonymity because of his work, said that within just four hours of the killing, 2,500 people had posted messages supporting Mr. Qadri on Facebook pages.
Mass rallies championing him and the blasphemy laws have continued since then.
This conservatism is fueled by an element of class divide, between the more secular and wealthy upper classes and the more religious middle and lower classes, said Najam Sethi, a former editor of The Daily Times, a liberal daily newspaper published by Mr. Taseer. As Pakistan’s middle class has grown, so has the conservative population.
Besides his campaign against the blasphemy laws, it was Mr. Taseer’s wealth and secular lifestyle that made him a target for the religious parties, Mr. Sethi said.
“Salman had an easygoing, witty, irreverent, high-life style,” he said, “so the anger of class inequality mixed with religious passion gives a heady, dangerous brew.”
Government officials, analysts and members of the Pakistan Peoples Party, the secular-leaning party to which Mr. Taseer belonged, blame the religious parties and clerics who delivered speeches and fatwas against Mr. Taseer for inciting the attack. On Monday, Mr. Qadri, who confessed to the killing, provided a court with testimony saying he was inspired by two clerics, Qari Hanif and Ishtiaq Shah.
The police say they are now seeking the clerics for questioning, but with the growing strength of the conservative movement on the streets, religious leaders — even those who incite violence and terrorism — are nearly untouchable to the authorities and are almost never prosecuted.
The blasphemy law has been condemned by human rights groups here, who say it has been used to persecute religious minorities, like Christians, and on Monday, Pope Benedict XVI called on Pakistan to undo the law. But the law has become an opportunity for religious parties looking to whip up public sentiment, Mr. Sethi said.
A dark presence in the background is the military establishment, which has sponsored the religious parties for decades, using them as tools to influence politics and as militant proxies abroad. The military also has a heavy influence on much of Pakistan’s brash media, which fanned the flames of the blasphemy issue with sensationalist coverage.
“Democracy has brought us a media that is extremely right-wing, conservative,” Mr. Sethi, 62, said. “Most are in their 30s and are a product of the Zia years, of the textbooks and schools set by the Zia years, which are not the sort of things that we were taught.”
“The silence of the armed forces is ominous,” Mr. Sethi added.
Indeed, whether on the military or civilian side, the government has failed to act forcefully on the case at every stage, the former security official said. Whether through fear or lack of policy, it has done little to challenge the ideology behind the attack or the spreading radicalism in Pakistani society.
“The entire state effort has been on the capture and kill approach: how many terrorists can you arrest and how many can you kill,” the former security official said. “Nothing has been done about the breeding ground of extremism.
“Unless the government does something serious and sustained,” the official warned, “we are on a very dangerous trajectory.”

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Re: Can Pakistan rid itself of religious fanaticism?

Until people stop thinking like this then I fear not.

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Re: Can Pakistan rid itself of religious fanaticism?

How many liberal fanatics have been suicide bomber, mob killers, sectarian murderers. How many liberal fanatics have torched shops, factories, public properties??

At best so called liberal fanatics have just expressed their opinions which has enraged a lot of so called religious liberals. Controlled freedom of expression is the only tool with liberal fanatics which apparently is being taken away from them in present environment.

http://www.dawn.com/2011/01/08/blaming-the-victim.html
Lacking the intellectual tools to conduct a reasoned debate on the issues of the day, religious elements in our society cling to their rigid dogma, using threats to make their point instead of logic. For anybody who disagrees with them, murder is the automatic, default response. The fact that ideological killers are seldom punished encourages them further.

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Re: Can Pakistan rid itself of religious fanaticism?

question is does pakistan really wants to get rid of it. once for all pakistani has to decide it with a consensus.
if they decide to do it then they will have to find a middle way while keeping the consideration of religious scholars and the world realities in mind.
pakistan has to differentiate between zahil friends and intelligent enemies, secularism and la-deeniat, religion and culture , and closet talibanis and real well wishers.
in a way it is already progressing with its functioning democracy ( though it is far from perfect and has tons of fallacies) . if the governments keep on being voted out on the basis of their performance then finally the leaders will start performing.
but it will be a slow and painful transition, does pakistan has that much patience?

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Re: Can Pakistan rid itself of religious fanaticism?

i think it liberal fanaticism is proving to be a bigger menance to our society. when the ppl who have not a basic knowledge of shariah and islamic jurisprudence start critcising the beliefs and teaching of islam and even the islamic laws approved by the parliment or through presidential ordinance.

such type of ppl create the fitna and the whole society suffers.

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Re: Can Pakistan rid itself of religious fanaticism?

Liberal fascists don't become suicide bombers, they create policies and set the stage to mold suicide bombers. Why do the dirty work yourself when you can inflame someone into rage and kill two birds with one stone? :)

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Lets be specific. Who are these liberal fascists and which particular policies are you talking about.

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they become passive ......... let the ppl od their country die in drone attacks.

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errr, lal masjid killings and drone killings are two recent incidents that come to mind. There are people who support those actions.

Now we can all argue that oh all the Laal masjid residents (including girls and kids) and all the kids living in FATA area are terrorist so they deserved to be killed - but it would be a similar argument that religious fanatics bring that all the gustaakhan-e-rasools are murtids and their death is according to shariah

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Re: Can Pakistan rid itself of religious fanaticism?

TLK, two questions:

  1. What is the basis for asserting that people who think oh all the lal masjid residents (including girls and kids) and all the kids living in FATA deserve to be killed are liberal. There are two possible reasons you could have. Firstly that the justifications offered have liberal roots. It would be tough to make that case, I'd like to see you try. The second would be that a majority of liberals make such arguments. If so how many of such people are there, and what is the basis for suggesting that this typifies liberal opinion.
  2. When you speak of getting rid of the 'liberal fanatics', who exactly do you mean.
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Re: Can Pakistan rid itself of religious fanaticism?

How about getting rid of secular fanaticism...

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Re: Can Pakistan rid itself of religious fanaticism?

I am going to try to answer both of your questions in one shot. First of all, our country is divided into 2 groups, liberals and conservatives (hey is that not we wanted anyways :D). The classification is so rigid that you just cant be a neutral party anymore. Take my example. I am trying my level best to present a neutral pov in many recent threads about Mr. Taseer but somehow I am looking like a clean shaved mulla.

Having said that, anyone who is going to support (or try to represent a justification behind Mr Taseer's killing) will be labeled as Mulla (you can see that happening right here in this forum). Simlarly all those who support/supported laal masjid or drone attacks are going to be labeled as liberals.

Liberals and religious fanatics are not the titles that we give to ourselves. Its the title that people of opposite point of views give us. For all of us, we are nothing but moderate people, its others who think that we are liberal or religious.

For your second questions, liberals fanatics and religious fanatics are not two camps, they are two thought processes. We should elimnate the thought procesess and not the people. Eliminating people just result in killings. We dont want Afghan style killings of 'liberals' but we also dont want Turkish style killings of all the 'mullas'