Caliphate issues

Although I am an outsider Kaafir in this thread…

But can anyone enlighten me…If Ali Ibn Abi Talib was so much adored by Abu Bakr and it’s a fact that Ali accepted new religion at young age of 10…so why he was refused the position of caliphate for so long???

I think after death of Mohammed Caliphate became an issue and by all logic Ali was worthy of this position…let’s say atleast before Umar or that guy Othman?

By all means Umar cannot be a candidate before Ali —Historically if you will see Umar is still an invader:D

Re: My eyes are aching.... my legs are shaking.....

^outsider Kaafir......caliphate was never an issue atleast until the first 4 caliphs. none of them wanted to become a caliph.
and how can you say that which one was better than other or which one should have become the caliph before or after?

The fact is that we love all the Companions of Prophet Muhammad(SAW) and the questions you've raised are of no benefit to anyone.
So please dont spoil this beautiful thread with your non sense
The way things happened in the past, happened by the will of God.

Re: My eyes are aching.... my legs are shaking.....

I thought u ran away from the other thread coz you had no answers for the accusation in bold. I feel now you are here, to instill conflicts between shia and sunni on this topic.

Again i request please respect the stalwarst of Islam.You cant say or that guy Othman, how will it be if i have to use this abusive term for your parents will u like it, anyways i dont wont to argue on this petty topics. Well, my concern is stay away before people will start bulldozing you and you have no answer.

For correction Ali was a muslim at the age of 6, and accordingly this meeting or feast was later. Well, Ali's father Abu Talib died as a kafir but still recommended Ali to convert to Islam, only because he at that time knew Prophet Mohammed had a great character.

Well to dawa_i_dil stay away from the argument of Umar, well we know what is the status of Umar, this is for both Sunni's and Shias. I request we stay away from such argument as its being no good to us either ways.

Well again, nice one bro keep that coming, and we will just wait and watch how many of them will invade our faith. Hope, i dont have to be harsh from now onwards but when people are hell bent, nothing really penetrates an individual's brain but only ego and attitude.

Re: My eyes are aching.... my legs are shaking.....

This is one the reasons I love religion of Islam, and how it differentiates completely with a universal message of God and submitting our will to Allaah.
SubhanAllaah.

Let me repeat again, friends and foes we believe there is no other god but Allaah, thats one reason people revert to Islam, but people argue on some tertiary aspects just to malign Islam.

I hope the one's i am targetting hopefull get my drift again by the will of God. INsha Allaah.:)

Re: My eyes are aching.... my legs are shaking.....

Hareem01

What I asked is not related to your statement that you love all companions of prophet or not....or whatever happenned was will of god...by that then you will do all wrong and say that it was will of god that's it!

I think major issue was after Death of Mohammed these people became obssessed with the greed of "position" or "leadership".
Greed can infatuate anyone...these were mere mortals.

But I guesst Ali showed remarkable patience and waited till Othman...I mean anyone could have tried to revolt.

Historians praise him for his patience.

Re: My eyes are aching… my legs are shaking…

Are bhai get me your books, Abu bakr and greedy great, Umar and greedy great, Uthman and greedy great and you have anything more to say.Now I have made my point but keep instilling some poison, seede seede bolo what do you feel about these guys the greedy one’s.

Well, to inform they are dead why do you want to talk wrong about these people, and please quote your historical references well I would wait life long for it.:naraz:

Re: My eyes are aching.... my legs are shaking.....

SOA.....yaar...did I say anything malign??..."that guy" means Othman was a guy and not a divine hero in my opinion that's it.....I am neither maligning religion nor Prophets so no issues here.

Why I say is....everytime you guyz speak highly about Ali --lbut no one can offer a logic why the helll he was not offerred leadership before Umar.

And about Umar, as I said before Persia was invaded during his reign....go and check history.
you will also notice that tendency of invasion was less as long as Mohammed was alive...however it was Umar when invasion of others land started.

PS: To me all beliefs are for Knowing the Supreme--God...so I don't care what Shia or Sunni belief is...it's just historical correction that's it.

Re: My eyes are aching.... my legs are shaking.....

^Arey yaar USR in the other thread is refuted your argument and we were waiting for your reply but unfortunately you were out somewhere.
Regarding the part of Ali, not being a caliph Hareem 01, is given you the best answer coz Allaah wills simple now why Allaah wills is mentioned in the Quran.

Well, you start again in with reverence to these people, i dont have to repeat again nahi to next time ek recorder lagan padega. And regarding the history Umar did take over Persia but you have a wrong history on hand USR is explained a very rational comment in the other thread so just waiting for a rebuttal from your side.

I would be extremely glad and thankful rather than to run away without any rebuttal. Take care.

Re: My eyes are aching.... my legs are shaking.....


.

Okk probably I am wrong...so you mean on the position of leadership God commanded in scripture well in advance??

If So, then how it was interpreted that Ali should be later than Umar and Othman?

[quote]

Well, you start again in with reverence to these people, i dont have to repeat again nahi to next time ek recorder lagan padega. And regarding the history Umar did take over Persia but you have a wrong history on hand USR is explained a very rational comment in the other thread so just waiting for a rebuttal from your side.

I would be extremely glad and thankful rather than to run away without any rebuttal. Take care.

[/quote]

Well I think that thread was hijacked by Toloo--passing derogatory remarks about Dharma--that's why I left..

I will check USR reply again and figure out why Umar is not an invader.

Re: My eyes are aching.... my legs are shaking.....

Preceding to this thread there was an individual who asked me why does Allaah will so with reference to that i mentioned. Well this argument was explained by the Quran why Allaah will, but no where its mentioned regarding the caliph. I am extremely sorry for any mis information

Re: My eyes are aching.... my legs are shaking.....

Maybe outsider kafir should stay outside.:D

Re: My eyes are aching.... my legs are shaking.....

That should suffice for any person with an intellect...

Re: Caliphate issues

The Two Nation Theory which was the fundamental reason for parting sub-continent into Pakistan and India states that:

Hindu and Muslim are two different religion, totally oposite to each other, Muslims Heros are different yet they are hated by hindus...

the above point is well proven by Matherbhoomi...

Now talking about khilafa! and Ali's (RZA) right of taking it first...

none of the historical document proves that there was any conflict between the Companions of Prophet (PBUH). and for outsider i think this is enough

Re: Caliphate issues

Mathroobhoomi...this was in another thread Bulbul ko hai phool...but as related and beautifully explained ..so i repeat it here.....

Abu Bakr and Umar wisdom at Saqeefa.....that saved the Ummah

Election of Abu Bakr as the Caliph. It was with considerable difficulty and after a good deal of discussion and even exchange of hot words that Abu Bakr ultimately succeeded in persuading the Ansars to let the Quraish have the office of the Caliph. Abu Bakr did not covet the office for himself. He wanted that any one out of Umar or Abu Ubaida alJarrah should be elected. Umar and Abu Ubaida insisted that Abu Bakr should have the office.

Abu Bakr realized that if he hesitated,** the Ansars might change their mind.** Abu Bakr accordingly let the people offer him allegiance. The entire process of election was spontaneous. There was nothing preplanned about it. The things moved in the course they did as ordained by destiny.

Abu Bakr's concept of the Caliphate. In the inaugural address which Abu Bakr delivered at the time of the assumption of power, he declared his concept of the caliphate in unequivocal terms. He held:

*Help me, if I am in the right; set me right, if I am in the wrong;

*The weak among you shall be strong with me till God willing his rights have been vindicated, and the strong among you shall be weak with me till, if the Lord wills, I have taken what is due from him.

*Obey me as long as I obey Allah and His Prophet, when I disobey Him and His Prophet, obey me not.

Re: Caliphate issues

Caliphate.....simple......but has been made a Dilemma

The Holy Prophet was a spiritual as well as a temporal leader. After his death, revelations ceased, and the new leaders of the Muslim community were to be temporal leaders only. The election of such leaders could be nothing but a political issue, and it was not correct to make it a religious issue. On the occasion of the farewell pilgrimage, Allah declared that He had completed the religion for the Muslims. If the caliphate were to be a religious issue, Allah or the Holy Prophet would have given instructions on the point. The very fact that the Holy Quran as well as the Sunnah are** silent in the matter of caliphate** shows that the matter is explicitly political and not religious in character.

Some sections hold that in becoming the Caliph, Abu Bakr usurped the rights of Ali, and he was therefore a usurper. On the face of the fact that Ali did offer allegiance to Abu Bakr, though after some time, this argument loses its force. Abu Bakr's avowed policy was to follow in the footsteps of the Holy Prophet and to do things as the Holy Prophet would have done if he were alive. Abu Bakr was very meticulous in carrying out all the commands of the Holy Prophet, in letter as well as in spirit. When all persons around Abu Bakr Holy Prophet him not to dispatch** Usamah's expedition** to Syria as Madina itself was threatened with danger, Abu Bakr overruled the objection on the ground that the order of the Holy Prophet had to be carried into effect.

When he was asked to appoint someone else as the Commander instead of Usamah, he held that he could not reverse an appointment made by the Holy Prophet.** It is well-known that Abu Bakr did not covet the office for himself.**

This is established by the fact that at the time of his death, he refunded all remuneration that he had drawn from the public treasury as Caliph. Under the circumstances, if there had been any indication that the Holy Prophet wanted Ali to be the Caliph, *Abu Bakr would have been the last man to stand in the way of Ali. *

*Choice of a Leader *

It is well known that the Holy Prophet left no instructions about his successor. Islam is from God, and in whatever way the history of Islam has shaped itself is the unfolding of the** Will of God*. We cannot, therefore, say that if the Holy Prophet did not nominate a successor, **it was an omission or an accident. We must hold that such omission to nominate a successor was deliberate, and in accordance with the Will of God. The intention obviously was that the **matter being political in nature, the community should in the matter stand on its legs, and choose the leader for itself.*

Re: Caliphate issues

*Claim of Ali...not on merits but inheritance !!!!! *

Ali's claim was not based on seniority or merit; it was based on inheritance. The Holy Prophet declared in unequivocal terms that in the case of prophets, there was nothing to be inherited. The Holy Prophet did beget some sons but they did not survive. It appears that there was a set purpose behind that. The Holy Prophet was the last of the prophets, and it was accordingly the Will of God that with his death, there was the end of the prophethood, and there was nothing to be inherited.

The caliphate could not be claimed on the basis of inheritance, it was a political office, and the community was free to choose, whomsoever they liked If for some reason, Ali was not chosen, this could not be made a ground for religious grievance.

Prophet(pbuh) ..... though not impose ..... but dfinitely want Abu Bakr .......

In passing any judgment on the caliphate of Abu Bakr, two points deserve particular consideration.

1.The first point is that we have definite indications that the Holy Prophet wanted Abu Bakr to succeed him.

2.The second point is that the caliphate of Abu Bakr must be judged on the basis of its results.

With regard to the first point, the Holy Prophet appointed Abu Bakr as the Imam, and that vested Abu Bakr with the mantle of the leadership of the Muslim community. The Holy Prophet declared that he was under obligation to no one other than Abu Bakr. *The Holy Prophet also declared that all doors opening in the mosque should be closed except the door of the quarter of Abu Bakr. *

As regards the second point it has to be borne in mind that when Abu Bakr was elected as the Caliph, Islam was confined to Makkah, Madina, and Taif **only, and in the rest of Arabia the tribes had risen against Islam. When barely two years later, Abu Bakr died, the whole of Arabia was in the fold of Islam and even Iraq and Syria had come under the domination of Islam. The irresistible conclusion is that such a man could not be a usurper. **

The verdict of history is that Abu Bakr successfully and faithfully carried out the mission of the Holy Prophet, and his policy aimed at securing the integrity and unity of the Muslim community, paid rich dividends.** Nothing succeeds like success, and in view of the outstanding success of the caliphate of Abu Bakr, it should not be made the subject of any sectarian prejudices.**.

Re: My eyes are aching.... my legs are shaking.....

hey matrubhoomi bandhu !!!!

Kahan is ALI, ABU BAKR & UMAR ( R.A) ki khalafat K CHAKKR MAIn PHANS GAYAY HO.

AS u said rightly an "outside kaafir" why not these maleechhh settle their problem

and in ekant u recite hanuman chaleesa or gayatri matra.

Or come on we together start:

Daya kar daan bhakti ka hamen parmatma dena
Daya krna hamari aatma maiN shudhdhta dena

or
janani janma bhoomi swarg say mahan hai.

come on man start
suujalaam suuphalam malayajay sheeta lamm satya shaaam laam
MAAAATRAM BANDAY - BANDAY MAAAATRAM - BANDAY MAAAATRAM

HAPPY???????

this whole post remind me a sher ( couplet)
RIND E KHARAB HAAL KI ZAAHID NA CHED TUU
TUJH KO PARAYEE KIYAA PADI APNI NABED TUU

Re: Caliphate issues

:D

Re: My eyes are aching… my legs are shaking…

Exactly. Would hate for an outsider to worry about ancient muslims. This has to be the most :mudhosh: thread ever.

Re: My eyes are aching.... my legs are shaking.....

Waaah Bhai....Kya baat hai!!...Ekdum umda sher hai.

I hope your before praising of Motherland is sincere.

Actually, I am surprised how this got "converted" into a new thread.

Originally, I just posted a response to a thread of dawa-i-dil...where he was trying hard to prove that people during early Islamic time adored so much of Ali .....so posed a question how then he was not a Caliph before others if this "love" was pure.

You know there is nothing wrong in knowing history of other nations.

And in Zen they say....."Love" can hardly be pure....but hatred has a chance to be pure :D