Caliphate issues

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

Re: Caliphate issues

dawa-i-dil

I think you are analysing it too much from religious/spiritual angle.

In fact it's not a complex issue if you notice from socio-political-leadership angle.

So now since you have presented so many arguements that Abu Bakr was indeed more spiritual than Ali hence first leadership went to him.

I can agree on above giving your arguements a fair credit.

But then again your all arguements end here.

You cannot further offer legitimate reasons that people like Umar and Othman were better than Ali.

With your arguements if Abu bakr was 1st then definately Ali deserved the second.....but what happened that he at last got his due as 4th leader.

That is where neutral historians will not agree with you.....keeping religious/spiritual aspcets seperate from arguements.

PS: This is a history related thing and history is to learn lessons....not to blend it in religious/spiritual sentiments.

22

Re: My eyes are aching.... my legs are shaking.....

Bro Matra bhoomi
I m as much an Indian as much u are, not by birth but by choice as well
and am proud of being an Indian
My praise of my motherland is as pure as the love of mohter. Certainly it is sincere.

Now regarding the "conversion" of this thread, i belivee there is no conversion but its a reversion. Oh forget it.
and knowing the history of other nation for sure there is no harm and nothing is wrong with that. ( BTW we ought to know about our own history in full and and after that move to other nations, and the history of BHARAT WARSH is so great & huge that one life is not enuf to be completely familiar whit that : my 2 cents)

but IF the the historian are like oaks & alaghs who dont know except tarnishing rather raping the history, in that case yes you should refrain from it.
the same case applies here, this thread is nothing but a tool or a try to start a shia sunni conflict. knowingly or unknowingly you are doing that.
So why i said : let these maleechh solve their own problem;

Hope it clarify the misconsecption in your mind.

LOVE & PEACE

23

Re: My eyes are aching.... my legs are shaking.....

Sir, your questions are based on your own assumptions, which is why people here do not even feel like discussing with you. Before you get proper answers I think you need to substantiate how you came to the conclusion:

1 - Abu Bakr RA adoration is a criteria for choosing a caliph.

2 - How age would have been a factor in choosing Islam? The time Abu Bakr RA and Ali RA had been muslims is nearly equal. Then in terms of plain seniority by age, obviously Abu Bakr RA would have had it.

3 - When did Ali RA ever want to be caliph to get denied/refused in the first place.

4 - Yes Caliphate was a immediate issue after the Prophet SAW demise. It got resolved based on the prevailing circumstances.

5 - According to you if Umar RA was an invader how was that to be known when deciding for the caliphate after the demise of Prophet SAW because Umar RA did not expand the Islamic state until he became caliph. Very grave inconsistency in your reasoning here.

Please answer these questions and then we would can continue further.

~~:( :( ~~ Share Asha’ar on Uddas ~~♣♣~~
24

Re: Caliphate issues

here we go again,

firstly I dont see how people can put Ali [as]second to anyone interms of merit and service to islam.
the outstanding success of the first 2 caliphates owe also greatly in which the political opposition to the caliphs behaved and how they selflessly supported them. The worldly failure of Ali'[as]s caliphate was largely due in part to those who for no reason but their pride revolted against him splitting the ranks of the muslims and causing factions to be formed which exist to this day.

[quote]
And about Umar, as I said before Persia was invaded during his reign....go and check history.
you will also notice that tendency of invasion was less as long as Mohammed was alive...however it was Umar when invasion of others land started
[/quote]

the most outstanding achievement of umar[ra] caliphate was the disintegration of the persian empire,he followed simply the policy of his predeccessors and it was a perfectly legitimate war

if Ali[as] caliphate had been free of civil wars he would have done the same thing remember that he was the destroyer of banu quraizah, victor of khyber and played a leading role in largely offensive campaigns of taif and yemen

25

Re: Caliphate issues

Matrubhoomi I’m waiting … :whistling:

26

Re: Caliphate issues

^Wo to apne source ko dhund rahe hain, hum bhi wait kar rahain hain.........................................................

27

Re: Caliphate issues

im waiting as well for matrubhoomi's reply.

BRIDAL PICS.
28

Re: Caliphate issues

Itne log mujhe wait karte to main aaj tak ek political leader ban jaata.

29

Re: Caliphate issues

:)

30

Re: Caliphate issues

When Shah Waliullah asked prophet(pbuh) about the fazeelat of Shaikeen over Ali ......

in his very famous book** Tafheem Ilahiyya** ...the greatest scholar of all times..Shah Waliullah Delhvi..writes that....

When i asked prophet(pbuh) spirtually about the fazeelat of** Shaikeen(abu bakr and umar) over ali**.....and i said to prophet(pbuh)...

O beloved of Allah...Ali..is the bravest **of all sahabas...the best in **judicial affairs in all sahabas...and all sufias of islmic ummah starts from him..then why Shaikeen have a fazeelat on Ali ?????...

prophet(pbuh) replied

There are two shades of my Nabuwwah..one is Zahiri means...external..and material...and second is Batni..means internal...or spirtual....so In Zahiri..affairs...Abu Bakr and Umar are my two hands right and left.....which deals with the providing justice to people..giving them full taleef qalb and relief..and working for thier good living..so in all these matters...of """""Shariat"""""...Shaikeen are my right and left hands....

While in matters of spirtuality...Fana ..Baqa...which are the spirtual ranks of Mysticism...in these affairs ...of """"""Tareeqat"""""...Ali...is the leader....

But overall...the Zahiri affairs..means External affairs....superseed..all other affairs..so thats why Shaikeen have fazeelat over Ali...

this is the reply of prophet(pbuh).....

31

Re: Caliphate issues

And do not connsider the above status of Shah Waliullah that he can say anything without any base !!!!!

Shaikh Ibne Tamiyya + Imam Ghazzali ==== Shah Waliullah

his knowledge...and his merits...and his religious status is beyond our mental limits....and when a man of such rank say something...its nearly impossible to negate that....

It is known as Awaisi way of asking fatwas from prophet(pbuh) as Awais Qarni took Batni faiz from Prophet(pbuh)...similarly...very greatest and very rare sufia did this....

and hardly anyone on the face of earth has such a** power of taqwa** to reach such level....they ask prophet(pbuh) about particular ahadees either they are wrong or right.....or some sufias read the whole quran from prophet(pbuh)...and some did Zikar-o-Azkaar from prophet(pbuh) himself....

so its totallty ignorance not to believe on that.....or this way.....

32

Re: Caliphate issues

I dont like to get into alll the kind of things its better we stay away from such affairs, it is much much much better to avoid stuff which is neither found in the Quran nor the Sunnah.

Mysticism, and what all i dont like to get involved in this but if you really wanna talk about this you can pm me.

33

Re: Caliphate issues

Which fatwa is this, these are kind of things which are really affecting the whole of muslim ummah for 3 centuries now, when the world is moving ahead we are still in the world of mysticism.

These kind of power wasnt given to Abu bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, Bilal, Abdullaah ibn UMar, Hassain, Hussain, Abdullaah ibn Abbas, Jabir ibn Abdullaah, Ayesha, Abu said al khudri, abdul rahaman ibn awf, saad ibn waqqas, jaffer ibn abu talib, zaid ibn haritha, amr ibn yasir, abu dhair, abu huraira, khalid bin waleed,etc... and someone else gets this kind of status and check out the statement in the whole world on the face of earth.

Dawa i dil i respect you a lot, please for heavens sake for the sake of Allaah, think rationally from the Quran and the Sunnah before passing such statements.

Forget everything let me give you a small eg, on the same thread if we could speak to the Prophet and solve such issues now please be logical and dont get the hadeeth if this was the case then, dont you think the caliphate issue would be solved within a second dont you think Abu bakr and Umar would have solved this issue by just speaking to the prophet though prophet had expired, i dont want to go into detail and provide you with more eg.

This is my humble request dont ever think ever in ur life, what your following is the best, and the rest all are waste jus think and Allaah knows the best.

34

Re: Caliphate issues

I concur with SOA on this DawaDil. Please use a little rationality here before believing into such things.

35

Re: Caliphate issues

Where has our thread starter disappeared?

36

Re: Caliphate issues

Matrubhoomi matrubhoomi come come come.

37

Re: Caliphate issues

Yaar you sound like ur calling a pooch … :rotfl:

38

Re: Caliphate issues

Main to retire hon raha hoon aur bhaag raha hoon, matrubhoomi to maar denge.:smiley:

Aaj Kiss Baat Par Gussa Aaya ??????
39

Re: Caliphate issues

Really I dont know what dawa-idil is trying to say in his post but it sounds strange.

40

Re: Caliphate issues

I think he is still finding his refs.