I see an increasingly concerted propaganda attack on this American Muslim advocacy organization, which I think does an incredibly useful and thankless job for american muslims.
Do you guys think the storm will pass or do you see them successfully taking down CAIR? If they do, which other Muslim advocacy groups are out there that can fill its role?
Re: CAIR
ISNA maybe
see the challenge is that there are ppl out there who just want ppl to have no voice and will find whatever excuse they can,
secondly, such groups liek CAIr really need to clean house because they still have ppl in their ranks who made irresponsible comments in the past and that is now a skeleton in teh closet that comes to haunt them personally and put the entire organization in a bad light.
Re: CAIR
I havent seen ISNA ever take up the Muslim Spokesman role that CAIR routinely plays. The only other organization I see coming on talk shows is this arab american outfit. CAIR doesnt have an arab scope.
Every CAIR spokesperson I've seen is very articulate and composed in the face of some extremely bigoted/anti-Muslim comments by the other idiot on the split screen. it would be a pity if such an organization is killed off by this smear campaign.
As for the skeletons in CAIR's closet, I havent seen anything that out of sync with general Muslim viewpoints. There is some alleged money trail to hamas, but mostly just oo hes Muslim and hes speaking up, squash them.
Re: CAIR
i agree they do a good job in general, there will be bigots trying to close them down because they cant stand to see that CAIR is correcting the bigoted talkign heads on the other side of the split screen.
I dont think it will be killed off that easily, they can try.
Re: CAIR
Try working with CAIR and see how far you get. They want people working for them.
They're not interested in opinions, or alternatives. It's their way or the highway. I tried getting involved with them...but I knew people who were further along with their involvement, and just got disinterested from their experience.
Basically, you tow their line or get out. Perhaps all advocacy groups are like that. But I mean...this was their attitude during informal, internal discussions.
Perhaps they've cleaned-up since...
Re: CAIR
CAIR is mostly staffed by Arabs who are obviously going to make stupid comments like "We are all Hamas", etc....
CAIR needs to get more Pakistanis, Turkish, Iranian and others to give it a more diverse opinion
I personally consider CAIR to be an Arab Group instead of an Islamic group
Re: CAIR
^
Depends on what chapter. CAIR-Canada is quite diverse. Again, it's just that there's an inner circle, and if you care to disagree they pretty much show you the door.
On the other hand, the Arabs have very good speakers, like Hussien Ibish. Turks in NA could care less about Islam from what I can see, and have their heads so far up attaturks arse that all they can think about how best to portray themselves as anything BUT Muslim. No help.
Iranis...oh dear, I can't even remember the last time I met an Irani who admitted to being a Muslim without some kind of negative qualification.
Malays and Inodnesians, on the other hand....they're a nice and calm folk. And loyal. A nice counter weight to the hot-headed Arabs and unthinking Desis.
Re: CAIR
CAIR is mostly staffed by Arabs who are obviously going to make stupid comments like "We are all Hamas", etc....
CAIR needs to get more Pakistanis, Turkish, Iranian and others to give it a more diverse opinion
I personally consider CAIR to be an Arab Group instead of an Islamic group
Or maybe they should join hands with AIPAC, ADL like the indian lobby? :)
Re: CAIR
picoico that is an issue with these groups, the old guard has a group think and they keep to it and are not open to new ideas. I have not done anythign with CAIR but for ISNA i was asked a few years ago by Muzzamil Siddiquo what I thought ISNA could do better. I asked him whether he wanted honest opinion or not, he said yes, lets say he did not like my honest opinion, which included having himself and other ppl with some record of radical statments stepping down for the benefit of the organization.
Re: CAIR
ISNA is on the hitlist too.
Re: CAIR
Isn't ISNA hardcore wahabi?
They were really promoting that one Abdul Wahab written book in their magazines..
Re: CAIR
who cares man.
Re: CAIR
ISNA is on the hitlist too.
of course it will be, when ppl like muzzamil are active in ISNA. what people dont realize that their hotheaded rhetoric which no one gave a damn about back in the day is no longer the case. Back in the day they were invisible, not only did mainstream media not care about them, avg muslims did not give a damn about them either and only their like minded folks did so.
Now after 9/11 as the focus is on muslim groups, not just by mainstream media, but also by mainstrem muslims. these groups need to weed themselves out if they want to represent muslims at large rather than people who are like minded.
that is what i meant when I suggested to muzamil that he needs to step down, move away and fade away, for his own good and for the benefit of ISNA.
I dont understand why people in these groups have to meddle in politics especially if that is not teh charter of the group. These people use their posts in such groups as just a platform for them to stand on and broadcast their views. Ego at its worst.
ISNA needs to figure out what it is, is it a community, education organization, is it a political organization. etc etc. If they are not the latter than not only should people who used their offices in ISNA to make political statements be tossed out, but that should be grounds for immediate dismissal for anyone.
question is will ISNA grow up, develop some cojones and boot out and root out such people in its midst. Its a good organization that is struggling due to its own identity crises.
Re: CAIR
dunno who muzammil is but the thing the cairwatch guy (david horowitz et al) had on ISNA was this picture of a guy onstage who used to be a general in Pakistani Army and was involved in 1971 operations. And he was saying ISNA is not a peaceful organization ask how the bangladeshies feel about him.
but yea they probably need to strategically quieten down these people that are being used to propagandize against them quite effectively.
Re: CAIR
ravage, take a look at this link, this will give you an idea of the type of issues i am talking about. People think that their statements will not come to haunt them, and sadly the groups that are fooliosh enough to pander to them? we need to do more due diligence, people can have their political views but if their political views reflect badly on an organization then they should not be invited. our groups keep catering to these folks…
I mean really its like asking a convicted or alleged child mol estor to speak at a save the children conference, or a boyscout gymboree.
the same issue was wit muzzamil, he had made rather controversial remarks, and when they came to light he denied them, then it was proven because his remarks at the rally were recorded. what does he need to do, back off and resign, and what des ISNA need to do, give him his marching orders, but they continue to keep him around.
that my friend is the downfall of muslim groups in this country, the hard work of dedicated people is overshadowed because some in the leadership are irresponsible and some are in position they should not be in but the organizations dont boot them out.
CAIR needs to learn that and ISNA needs to learn that.
Re: CAIR
Fraudz, that is something an American Muslim blogger touched upon
Re: CAIR
that is the issue, these two faced bigotsd think that they cant be caught? when they are caught they make excuses that it is character assassination, and when the are shown their own words then they claim its twsited out of context, and then when u ask for context they go on tangents.
they just need to be rooted out. its frustrating that avg folks can not make an impact, and that many dont even know teh kartoot of some aasteen kay saamp that are stuck like parasites to these organizations.
all I can say is ISNA wake the hell up, distance yourself from such people, theyare not doing you any good.
its not unique to US, I have mentioned the name of Zaffar bangash in toronto, markham or missausaga I believe. the gentleman published a rag called crescent which was just his ego, his bigotry and full of political rhetoric, he is president of some mosque, and there is another one being built and there was a protest by people..muslims and non muslims alike that they wantthe mosque but not him.
we have to weed stuff out people, we dont have the luxury of apathy, and its not just about our image, its about saving our future generations from the influence of these two faced ppl.
Re: CAIR
I have not done anythign with CAIR but for ISNA i was asked a few years ago by Muzzamil Siddiquo what I thought ISNA could do better. I asked him whether he wanted honest opinion or not, he said yes, lets say he did not like my honest opinion, which included having himself and other ppl with some record of radical statments stepping down for the benefit of the organization.
LOL...well, I don't think anyone in such a position would appreciate being asked to step down, even if it was best for all.
That such people are put in such a position, and not elected is a big problem. I don't know if that's the case with ISNA...it's my understanding that's how it is...
A huge problem with these guys, in particular Arabs and desis, is that they can't debate or speak if their life depended on it. And now days, it does. Problem is, if you get a guy who can speak, and speak wonderfully, like say Mr. Ibish, then I don't know if I'm comfortable with him speaking on my behalf. Especially as a Muslim, as he pronounced himself an agnostic. So to for a lot of us, the so-called old guard do represent us...they're just not good at their jobs.
I beg to differ that Siddiqui et all say anything drastically wrong. More often than not, they're 100% correct in what they say. Unless I've missed something....
Even with all their flaws, they're way better than jerkfaces like Tarek Fatah, who pretty much wants to taint the entire *mosque-going community (okay....I digress...a *majority) as being wahabi-backed fanatics. From time to time, he does impress the hell out of me. When the PM's office announced Hezb. as a terrorist outfit, and that anyone sending money or supplies to them are committing a federal offence...he sent a buck to Hezb. That took GUTS. And the action registered well as a protest, not duplicity. Our old guard simply don't know how to do things like that.
There's just a time and place to say something. And when thery're in such a position, there should ALWAYS be a purpose to what they say.
American Muslims, or Canadian for that matter, should concern themselves with local problems first. Proxying for foreign causes is something were're not in a position to do. The various Jewish groups can get away with that crap, as they have regional clout...they've earned it. And now we can add Indian lobbyists to the mix.
Re: CAIR
that is the issue, these two faced bigotsd think that they cant be caught? when they are caught they make excuses that it is character assassination, and when the are shown their own words then they claim its twsited out of context, and then when u ask for context they go on tangents.
They are. More often than not. Often they speak in hypothetical, and they're demonized for it. ElMasry's poorly worded discussion in 2004 is a very good example. He didn't fundamentally say anything wrong (that all Israelis are 18+ are legit targets of militant/terrorist acts as they are, in fact, active members of the military). It's a pretty solid point of view, no matter if you agree or disagree with it. If you disagree with it, it's quite easy to come up with a list of reasons why there is no moral equiv. between that and the kind of actions Israel takes in the OT.
But noooooo....the shrill response, including by some Muslims, was just over the top. I can't fault the man for his views...just that he really does SUCK at expressing them, and doesn't have any apparent abilities to put forth hypothetical (and it was made clear that the idea he prompted was indeed a hypothetical) that such debates require.
Bangash is the same (Markham). I've been attending his Jumah off and on since the mid-80's. He simply doesn't advocate suicide bombings or what not. He DOES compare their morality to the actions of the Western military machine. That's fine, it's just not the right time or place to get involved in that debate. Yes, Westerners are being hypocritical and holier-than-thou, but we're just not in a position to call them on it. We do have bigger fish to fry...like...you know...getting to a position where we CAN.
Back in the day, even Haroon Siddiqui of The Star used to show up. LOL...I remember after one Khutba, Haroon took Bangesh aside and tried really hard to give him advice on how to write. He just wouldn't take it. I dunno....maybe it's a desi thing.
We used to call Cresent 'propoganda press', but it served it's purpose and wasn't all that bad. In fact, it's much more mild than the CRAP you'll find on Jewish/Zionist sites that are blatantly anti-Islamic, under the rubric of being anti-Islamist.
I don't think it's really bigoted as he's pretty particular on making a distinction between Jews and Zionism...although it's of poor quality, and conspiratorial. He'll often use examples of 'friendly' Jews as a means of showing how people outside the community, hell even in other communities that are meant to be hostile towards us, are doing more for OUR causes than we are. It just doesn't translate well to visitors who simply don't visit the masjid at all, or very infrequently.
As I said, we just don't have the luxury of being as blunt as other people are.
Re: CAIR
picoico
when soemone makes controversial comments as a keynote speaker for some group or as a representative of some group than it is an issue. If you look at the link i posted above or what bullehshah has noted you will see the issue.
think of it as going to a mosque and hearing a bigoted khutba, the imam just needs to go. or if the imam is invited to some event in his capacity as the imam of a mosque and starts mouthign off crap. In such cases if what this person is sayign is goign against what the mosque stands for, then they need to get rid of him.
its the same at ISNA. old guard needs to go, they are too chummy with some of the other old guards who are just dinosaurs and do not belong in the current set up..not that they really belonged in any set up, but earlier they were inconsequential, they were below the radar and no one gave a crap, now not only their words are impacting their organizations, but they are being heard by more muslims as well, and we simply can not afford to have our organizations allow bigots to air their views using the organizations as a platform..period/.