Re: Butcher of Lal Mosque
By the way, FYI, prostitution isnt a sign of a failed society, it just a characteristic of society... Even in the good old days when the Taliban ran Kabul, there were reports of underground brothels even under their nose... Im not sure if you knew that.
Re: Butcher of Lal Mosque
I think the truth of the matter is with Musharraff's coup de etet, there was some restoring of order in the dying nation. Where India was steadily rising in prominence in the late 1990s, Pakistan was decaying.
Under Musharraf, whatever he is: dictator, saviour or tyrant, he began implementing programs (however measley) of reform. People began seeing a 6.6% economic growth, money from foreign investment, international recognition, improving bureacracy, improving roads, flyways and byways, new economic programs: Gwadar, Karachi Foreign Investments and Developments, - - -- things began looking up and people appreciated it.
When the Lal Masjid brigade began their attack against a brothel, that signaled a challenge to established order. Think of it this way, if i find something repulsive in my family neighborhood, i report it to the authorities, i dont take vigilante action into my own hands.
These people decided differentely, began calls for suicide bombings, began threats and kidnappings, the situation become ridiculous.
The end is unfortunate.
Re: Butcher of Lal Mosque
^Exactly, they didnt report anything to the authorites, they became the judge and jury all on their own...
In a completely dysfunctional country, one can agree that such things can happen. But however screwed up, Pakistan is still a functional country, with laws, with counrts and with security apparatus, thus nothing justifies vigalantism..
Those that blindly support these people dont understand the inherant dangers in such a vigalante group and its implications.
Re: Butcher of Lal Mosque
ur rt... and Altaf Hussain should be given Hill-e-Imtiaz for more than 150 murder cases
Altaf knew his presence in Pakistan would lead to bloodshed, so he left. Ghazi knew his presence in lal masjid would lead to bloodshed but he remained and the result is in front of us. Ego is not a good thing to die for.
Re: Butcher of Lal Mosque
He challenged the government openly and unashamedly.
Big deal. Mushy took it over. That's apparently not a crime.
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Their crimes have been listed many times already, majority of them before July 3rd. All of you complaining have yet to provide an alternative solution, and no, safe passage is not a solution.
[/quote]
I know. I'm asking you to contextualize them. See beyond the beard, if you dare.
Re: Butcher of Lal Mosque
I think the truth of the matter is with Musharraff's coup de etet, there was some restoring of order in the dying nation. Where India was steadily rising in prominence in the late 1990s, Pakistan was decaying.
Under Musharraf, whatever he is: dictator, saviour or tyrant, he began implementing programs (however measley) of reform. People began seeing a 6.6% economic growth, money from foreign investment, international recognition, improving bureacracy, improving roads, flyways and byways, new economic programs: Gwadar, Karachi Foreign Investments and Developments, - - -- things began looking up and people appreciated it.
When the Lal Masjid brigade began their attack against a brothel, that signaled a challenge to established order. Think of it this way, if i find something repulsive in my family neighborhood, i report it to the authorities, i dont take vigilante action into my own hands.
These people decided differentely, began calls for suicide bombings, began threats and kidnappings, the situation become ridiculous.
The end is unfortunate.
Most of it u stated is true.. if u look at the post title it only relates to what happened on the last day.. indiscriminate killlings.. with no rescue.. the actions of the idiot and rascal Ghazi are being debated on other threads!
Re: Butcher of Lal Mosque
And I suspect the weapons were to be used in order to terrorize the nation into implimenting the Taliban style of Sharia, and to create a small army that would challenge the state and murder any rivals.
Who knows. Arming such groups is government policy; there's no evidence this has stopped. For all we know, this was a lovers spat between Mush and his dogs of war.
Again, if they wanted to terrorize the population, they could have picked softer targets. They were quite select up to the abduction of the police officers.
And what they did do was rather...lame. But hardly on par with overthrowing a government.
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Brothels owners are not given the same ultimatum because there really arent any Brothels to speak of, except for the ones in the paranoid minds of overly religous fundamentalists...
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...be real.
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I for one have gone all around Islamabad, and have never seen any brothels...
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One must go to the sewers to see the rats. I can go to places and not see a single criminal...but it's folly to think becaue one does not see it, it doesn't exist.
Gang rapes happen in the open. Feudal lords abuse out in the open. The Military itself is involved in land grabs here and there.
Really...these lame idiots are the ones we need to worry about?
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Bootleggers arent given any ultimatums because bootleggers work undeground, and arent in the public eye... Unless you know where to find them, you wont see them. I also recall you telling me that laws banning Alcahol dont need to be effective, only symbolic, soooooo...
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Implement. If you can find them, root them out.
As for drug dealers...they HAVE private armies and very much are out in the open. And what of feudal lords? Not criminal..but then..hey, if what they do isn't criminal...then NOTHING should be....
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Also, its well known that drug trafficing actually supports the activities of many of our esteemed Jihadi groups, particularly those operating in FATA and Afghanistan... So would you really want to cut of the support to these great Islamic warriors fighting for the cause of Islam?
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Yes. And btw the gov. is a part and parcel of all that...
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Did the Lal Masjid ever consder sitting outside that supposed brothel and refusing to move until the govt did somehting about it? Did they ever consider sending someone to investigate the whole issue?
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Good point.
But as of this point, last word is they were right about our ol Aunty.
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Really would like a response, you can choose to ignore but PLEASE, just answer a few...
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All and all...minor compared to all the other crap that hapens out in the open.
Sadly.
Re: Butcher of Lal Mosque
stupid arguments by stupid people in favor of killing own citizens unashamedly in the name of enforcing writ of the state.
All MQM supporters like kehkashan and fraudia. Your drama is over. you cannot decieve the nation anymore.
The nation was in favor of operation to finish the Madrassah and its stupid and dangerous education system. They were not in favour of this savagery of butchery from the days of Gangez Khan and Crusades. By supporting this savagery you have shown your real face. Can't hide behind the facade any more.
why did the government did agreement in tribal areas against people whom it could not defeat and who had killed almost 700 soldiers? If the government cannot defeat you, it will have a peace agreement but if it will have overwhelming strength it will kill you. This is the message of this fiasco and savagery of modern day Gangez a.k.a Musharraf the Butcher.
Re: Butcher of Lal Mosque
Now today, government accepts that it killed women and children which it was denying previously. they are really big liars.
http://www.dawn.com/2007/text/top1.htm
and see this news item that security agencies knew that arms are coming but did not do anything. can some butcher supporter answer why?
Re: Butcher of Lal Mosque
Big deal. Mushy took it over. That's apparently not a crime.
I know. I'm asking you to contextualize them. See beyond the beard, if you dare.
If you've read any of previous posts, you know how much I disagree with Mush taking over power. And I would still rather support a hundred Mush's than one mullah. At least under mush I have freedom to say what I want, we have private media etc. Under mullah, there would be none of that, only their way, and every other way would be that of kuffar.
To contextualize lal masjid antics, they were in open revolt against the state, not asking for rights or anything negotiable. They just wanted their way. Hang mush for his crime for all I care, but the mission to save pakistan from fanatics is greater than one man.
Re: Butcher of Lal Mosque
I dont get it. Previously the complaint was that the government is letting the show go on in Islamabad deliberately or that they are too weak to act, or that Musharraf has personally propped up this Ghazi freako. Now the tune is that they killed innocents and so forth. This is sheer hypocrisy on the part of Pakistani people and the Pak media. They should be thankful to Musharraf for removing these Tableego freakos from their cities, else in no time we would have another Baghdad or Kabul prop up. The real deal is, no wonder WHATEVER the government will do, these people will always complain.
If we spend even the quarter of the time and energy we spend complaining to instead think positively and contribute some constructive ideas, we would be a lot better as a nation. Even Attaturk had to kill these tableegos inorder to get progress to Turkey.
Re: Butcher of Lal Mosque
By the way, FYI, prostitution isnt a sign of a failed society, it just a characteristic of society... Even in the good old days when the Taliban ran Kabul, there were reports of underground brothels even under their nose... Im not sure if you knew that.
LOL...and so Pakistan is home to the most well known underground brothels in Lahore...
Ah...but I guess those are "cultural"...and so okay.
Re: Butcher of Lal Mosque
Personlly i believe MKF has very true and reasonable complaints: there is a culture of lying, cheating, fraud, stealing, and hypocrisy in the nation. Then again, where is it not?
The people who are the most dispossessed are those who hae been metered out injustice by the state, and they see hypocrisy and injustice all around them.
These says fitnah is everywhere.
Re: Butcher of Lal Mosque
^Exactly, they didnt report anything to the authorites, they became the judge and jury all on their own... In a completely dysfunctional country, one can agree that such things can happen. But however screwed up, Pakistan is still a functional country, with laws, with counrts and with security apparatus, thus nothing justifies vigalantism..
LOL...functioning courts and legal system? Tell that to the CJ.
Re: Butcher of Lal Mosque
LOL...functioning courts and legal system? Tell that to the CJ.
Yes, our justice system sucks. We have no real democracy etc. etc. But many other countries have it worse, far worse, but their religious people don't go and become terrorists because of it. If you go on the path of justifying criminal acts, you can also justify dacoity, robbery, kidnapping, murder, prostitution in not only Pakistan but most other countries as well.
Where does it end? If things are broken in Pakistan, we should break them more by not confronting anti state elements? All of you that were screaming for MQM and mohajir's blood after may 12 didn't care about the same arguments then? The sudden about face with its mullah's turn to face the music doesn't help your argument.
Re: Butcher of Lal Mosque
All of you that were screaming for MQM and mohajir's blood after may 12 didn't care about the same arguments then?
Please make a correction: dont drag as usual mohajir in MQM! MQM as it itself claims consits of all sections of society.. nobody said anything about mohajir - just the terrorists wing of MQM needs a chitrol
Re: Butcher of Lal Mosque
LOL...and so Pakistan is home to the most well known underground brothels in Lahore...
Ah...but I guess those are "cultural"...and so okay.
So where is the Mullah brigade to challenge the Diamond market in Lahore?
Re: Butcher of Lal Mosque
Can anyone tell me what those armed guys were doing in the madrassa Hafsa (that was suppose to be only for girls)? Was it co-education going on there in Madressa? Were those guys mehram of girls there? What you think? What were those two brothers (Abdul Aziz and Avdul Rasheed) doing in that Madrassa amongst non-Mahram girls?
What were arms doing in that girl madrassa? Is it right to have arms (even few guns) in girls madrassa? (Or even in any madrassa?).
These girls (or na-mahram guys living with them and representing them) kidnapped men and took them to that girl's madrassa, so what they kidnapped men for? Is it allowed in Islam that girls kidnap na-mahram men and take them to their Madrassa? What type of hanky panky these girls wanted to do (or did) with kidnapped men they took to their girl madrassa?
To stop their this faihashi of kidnapping men and taking them in their madrassa, living with na-mahram men in there madrassa, what people of the area should have done? Was it duty of people of the area to kidnap these girls and ask them to repent, release na-mahram men they kidnapped for whatever reason, finish all their fahashi, and expel all guys from their madrassa?
Can anyone put some light on what was really going on in that girl madrassa behind the eyes of all decent people living in that area? What that madrassa was up to and what was happening to those girls living in that madrassa full of na-mahram young and healthy men? What hanky panky was going on inside? Is all whatever happening there was Islamic? Can anyone clear this ambiguity?
Re: Butcher of Lal Mosque
Can anyone tell me what those armed guys were doing in the madrassa Hafsa (that was suppose to be only for girls)? Was it co-education going on there in Madressa? Were those guys mehram of girls there? What you think? What were those two brothers (Abdul Aziz and Avdul Rasheed) doing in that Madrassa amongst non-Mahram girls?
What were arms doing in that girl madrassa? Is it right to have arms (even few guns) in girls madrassa? (Or even in any madrassa?).
These girls (or na-mahram guys living with them and representing them) kidnapped men and took them to that girl's madrassa, so what they kidnapped men for? Is it allowed in Islam that girls kidnap na-mahram men and take them to their Madrassa? What type of hanky panky these girls wanted to do (or did) with kidnapped men they took to their girl madrassa?
To stop their this faihashi of kidnapping men and taking them in their madrassa, living with na-mahram men in there madrassa, what people of the area should have done? Was it duty of people of the area to kidnap these girls and ask them to repent, release na-mahram men they kidnapped for whatever reason, finish all their fahashi, and expel all guys from their madrassa?
Can anyone put some light on what was really going on in that girl madrassa behind the eyes of all decent people living in that area? What that madrassa was up to and what was happening to those girls living in that madrassa full of na-mahram young and healthy men? What hanky panky was going on inside? Is all whatever happening there was Islamic? Can anyone clear this ambiguity?
U may argue about their tactics for implementing their demands.. but ur reply is absolutely non-sense and doesnt need any comment..