Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

Antiobl,

“Care to read Bharati General Manekshaw's views on 71 war?”

Can you link these views? In 1971, serious trouble started, when General Yahya Khan did not hand over power to majority winning party and started military operation killing innocent people, rapping Bengali girls, looting own banks and destroying infrastructure in East Pakistan. Mukti Bahini who were originally East Pakistan Rifles (Para military force), people of East Pakistan and workers of Awami Leage started movement against West Pakistani Military. They wanted separation from Pakistan. During military operation millions of people crossed Indian border and took refuge. Indra Gandhi took full advantage of this situation as she wanted to take revenge of 1965 war. Internationally she cried about feeding millions of refugees and locally trained Bengalis to fight with West Pakistani army. She started proxy war. Genenral Yahya without thinking, started war on Western front by bombing border Indian cities. After that full flesh war started. Result: Breakup of Pakistan and surrendering of 98000 soldiers to Indian general.

Perhaps you were not born when this happened. This happened when I was student in Karachi.

Encrypted

“Farid, actually, its your views which are based on complete biased Hindustani propaganda. It was always India who crossed the border and started aggression”

Can you prove that? Read above. In 1965, Pakistan started proxy war when mujahidan know as Kashmiri freedom fighters, fighting in Kashmir, India had no choice but to start full war in West Pakistan to save Kashmir.

Farid

Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

Official information on the 5bn USD F-16 package, it includes the acquisition of up to 36 new-built F-16C/D Block 50/52+, 26 used F-16A/B Block 15 (likely the aircraft embargoed from Pakistan) and 60 MLU kits that will bring 60 F-16A/Bs to Block 52+ standard avionically. As well as thousands of missiles, bombs and training equipment.

Defense Security Cooperation Agency **
**NEWS RELEASE

Pakistan F-16C/D Block 50/52 Aircraft

On 28 June 2005, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan of 36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 Aircraft as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $3 billion.

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of:

*Major Defense Equipment (MDE)
*

**

  • 36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft with either the F100-PW-229 or F110-GE-129 Increased Performance Engines (IPEs) and APG-68(V)9 radars;
  • 7 spare F100-PW-229 IPE or F110-GE-129 IPE engines;
  • 7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets;
  • 36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems;
  • 36 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II;
  • 36 Conformal Fuel Tanks (pairs);
  • 36 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals;
  • 36 Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems;
  • 36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
  • 36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites without Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM) or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM and
  • 1 Unit Level Trainer; Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability will also be provided. The estimated cost is $3 billion.** ========================================

Defense Security Cooperation Agency

NEWS RELEASE

Pakistan – F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits

On 28 June 2006, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan of 60 F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification kits as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $1.3 billion. The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B Mid-Life Update (MLU) modification and Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits consisting of:

  • APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or APG-66(V)2 radar;
  • Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems;
  • AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
  • AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems;
  • Have Quick I/II Radios;
  • Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals;
  • SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability;
  • Reconnaissance pod capability;
    MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits

  • 21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency

  • Memory (DRFM) or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;

  • 60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems;

  • 1 Unit Level Trainer; and

  • 10 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets.

    Also included are radars, modems, receivers, installation, avionics, spare and repair parts, support equipment, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, technical assistance, publications and technical documentation, system drawings, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, and other related logistics elements necessary for full program support. The estimated cost is $1.3 billion.

Defense Security Cooperation Agency
NEWS RELEASE
Pakistan Weapons for F-16C/D Block 50/52 Aircraft

On 28 June 2006, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan of Weapons for the F-16C/D Block 50/52 Aircraft as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $650 million. The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of:
Major Defense Equipment (MDE)

  • 500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM);
  • 12 AMRAAM training missiles;
  • 240 LAU-129/A Launchers;
  • 200 AIM-9M-8/9 SIDEWINDER missiles;
  • 500 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) Guidance Kits: GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits;
  • 1,600 Enhanced-GBU-12/24 GBUs;
  • 800 MK-82 500 pound General Purpose (GP) and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs; and Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability will also be provided. The estimated cost is $650 million. ======================================== Defense Security Cooperation Agency ** **NEWS RELEASE Pakistan F-16 Engine Modifications and Falcon UP/STAR Structural Upgrades On 28 June 2006, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan of Engine Modifications and Falcon UP/STAR Structural Upgrades as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $151 million.

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale for modification/overhaul of 14 F100-PW-220E engines, 14 Falcon UP/STAR F-16 structural upgrade kits, de-modification and preparation of 26 aircraft, support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to support the program. The estimated cost is $151 million.

Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

Mark Sien,

"Official information on the 5bn USD F-16 package...."

Question is whether if this huge project worth it or not. To me it is total wastage of 5 bn dollars. These dollars should be diverted to education, health, water, electricity and other projects which benefit people.

In presence of nukes and missiles, compromise on Kashmir issue, there is absolutely no chance of war with India in future. Then why these F-16?

FARID

Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

[QUOTE]
In presence of nukes and missiles, compromise on Kashmir issue, there is absolutely no chance of war with India in future. Then why these F-16
[/QUOTE]

With regards to missiles and nukes - people thought that would be the future of warfare in the 1950s, '60s, '70s, '80s and even '90s; yet the Americans, Europeans and even Chinese continue to develop fighter aircraft. Ballistic missiles have become large precision guided cruise missiles that are satellite/GPS guided and could strike anything - so why need fighters? Well fighters have continued to play a vital role in war or even in peace time; it was a group of Israeli F-16s which took out Iraq's nuclear reactor. It was American F-15s which took out Iraq's WMD in the first Iraq-U.S war; and the use of WMDs did not stop Iran and Iraq from fighting it out for 10 years.

With regards to South Asia, its obvious that throughout Pakistan and India's history that whenever a side has an overwhelming advantage in conventional warfare, a war errupts. India's poor mobilization, low morale, lack of good equipment, etc, was exploited heavily by Pakistan in 1965. In 1971 India exploited all of Pakistan's weaknesses in E.Pak; while Pakistan exploited India's weaknesses in W.India. When the PAF got those F-16A/B Block 15s - India could not mount an attack on Pakistan's nuclear reactor without suffering an equally or even more devasting counter. Our air force had stagnated heavily throughout the 1990s - and had it only received necessary improvement in the 21st century. Had our PAF's Mirage ROSE I/IIs not received BVR missiles and precision-guided munitions, the IAF would have been deployed to strike against Pakistan's WMD launch sites.

Unless Pakistan modernizes its conventional capability to keep conventional balance against India - India will exploit Pakistan's weakness and destroy our non-conventional capabilities (nukes). If they cannot do that - and Pakistan totally relies on nukes and missiles, we'll become a pariah state like North Korea or Iraq. Investors around the world do not like countries who have to rely on WMDs and threaten to use them every other day; if you have seen Pakistan's change of tone in the past 4-5 years, you'd notice. In 2002-2003 Pakistan warned India of a heavy Ballistic Missile or Nuclear strike; now the tone is a heavy conventional counter attack.

[QUOTE]
Question is whether if this huge project worth it or not. To me it is total wastage of 5 bn dollars. These dollars should be diverted to education, health, water, electricity and other projects which benefit people.

[/QUOTE]

Completely agree, but with regards to South Asian history - anything could happen. Both India and Pakistan are known for completely exploiting weaknesses whenever they appear; if there is no conventional balance, one side would capitalize to attack the other. Pakistan and India do not have the guts to use WMDs anyways - at best they'll use regular ballistic missiles without nukes or any chemical weaponry. Such usage of ballistic missiles would just cause repairable damage.

There is a risk in maintaining a conventional military - will the weapons be used? Likely not. Could we take the risk of not buying these weapons and see what our enemy does to us? No way. So its a really shady area and becomes extremely complicated.

Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

Pakistan has ben buying American aircrafts since the 1950s.Remember the F-86 Sabres and F-104Starfighters.Pakistan is also the FIRST country in Asia to induct a jet powered aircraft.This first time F-86Sabre left NorthAmerican and Europe was bound to pakistan.Even though they were less in number than IAF's Russian built migs, the American aircrafts would eat the Russian aircrafts for breakfast lunch and dinner. I remember two starfighters on their way back to base in E-pakistan shot down a couple of Indian migs.

It is all good, our new and old F-16s will counter IAf's mig 29s.To counter IAf's su30 we are buying extra F-16s and J-10s.Paf looks in good shape for the future and we will maintain the qualitative edge like we always have.

Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

F-16 deal no longer certain.

WASHINGTON – A senior Democratic lawmaker has asked the Bush administration to withdraw its offer to sell $5 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan, saying the deal raises security worries.
The action by Rep. Tom Lantos of California, the top Democrat on the House International Relations Committee, apparently led to the postponement of a congressional hearing Thursday to examine the jet sale.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/13/AR2006071300782.html

Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

It would be foolish for USA to scrap this deal now that it is in its final stages.LockHeed Martin had closed down its plant in Texas but when it heard that new F-16s will be required for Pakistan they immediately were happy.Because you know all the money coming in for LM.Also if USA scraps the deal then it can say goodbye to war on terrorism, gone is the vital co-operation of Pakistan in war on terrorism and gone is the nightime sleep of many Amcericans at the hands of terroists.I am sure many American realise the two above things and they will consider it.However in the end Pakistan has learned a lesson, never to trust the Americans when it comes to defence equipment supply.

Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

Some facts,

  1. Per UN Kashmir is a disputed territory and there is no international border but LOC. Mujahdeen corossed the LOC in 65 and they do it today in much bigger numbers… It is not an act of war, no one is stopping India to cross the LOC if they can find popular support on our side of Kashmir…

  2. War starts when you cross the ** international border ** and thats what India did every single time.

Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

The deal will go through, Congress' hearing on this deal was postponned indefinitely. Only the Bush admin could block this deal - which is of course quite unlikely as $5bn is a lot of money which could go other suppliers. Blocking F-16s would not make Pakistan any less capable.

Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

Abdali,

“Per UN Kashmir is a disputed territory and there is no international border but LOC.”

India has never accepted this. Now Paki rulers had already reached a compromise on this issue.

"War starts when you cross the international border and thats what India did every single time."

Whom are you fooling? In 1965 Mujahedan were at door of Srinagar, had India not started war, Kashimir would have become either independenat state or part of Pakistan. India had no choice but to start full war with Pakistan, so called mujhedan had to rush back to save Lahore and Punjab.

Be honest with your comments.

FARID

Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

You are as usual side tracking and trying to go in circles…

here read this loud and clear

** Per UN resolution Kashmir is a disputed territory and there is no International border between AK and IOK its called LOC… Its called LOC…Its called LOC… **

Jehadis crossed LOC in 65 and are crossing today day every day and will continue to do so.

BUT

The war starts when you crossed the International Border.

OH, this is FYI it was Indian PM who rushed to UN to resolve Kashmir dispute. I thought I throw that in just in case.

Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

[quote=Farid]
Spock,

Since 1947, it is Punjabi brain behind the ruling of Pakistan. Whether PM is Bengali, Sindhi, Pathan, Muhajir or what ever, ruling force is Army and Beaurocracy which is 95% Punjabi. The trick played by Punjabis that it is a Sindhi or Muhajir PM/President who is responsible for everything is not going to work anymore. History showed Punjabi army kicked Pms and Presidents at their whims.

Punjabis have always fired guns on the shoulders of rulers who did not belong to Punjab. After achieving their dirty goals, they hanged, killed or booted out these PMS and Presidents. Wait and see the end of Musharaf. I don’t see any difference.

Farid: You have portrayed a very high caliber of ignorance about historical facts of Pakistani politics. As for punjabi bashing u seem to have some personal grudge against the 55% of pakistanis who happen to be punjabis. The representation in the govt. and armed forces is proportional to the population of various regions and i realize that for u it is a very difficult concept to grasp. :grumpy: :grumpy: .

Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

so is pakistan actually paying the whole sum of us$ 5 billion to buy those f-16s or are they getting some discount?5 billion is a few billions too many for a third world country like pakistan to be spending on buying fighter jets.

Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

the deal will be finalized today as today is the last day for congress to raise any objections to this deal

Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

^^ A Deomcrat has already opened a bill in the house to block the whole deal...

Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

You speak as if there are no funds for education, health, water, roads and electricity.

Just one question, do u have some sort of memory loss problems? Read over the thread again, and stop asking the same stupid questions over and over again.
The defence budget is less then 3% of GDP, so don't give me bullsh!t like theres no funds for health, water, etc.
Learn a thing or two about military. Maybe then you will understand.

Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

& the $5b package accounts for more then just F-16s. F-16s are only $3b.

Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

I dont like for Pk to be reliant on the US for arms. Its too unreliable a supplier.

Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

farid & nstar,
Pls behave and show respect.

Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

US arms are the best in the world. Look what's the difference between Israel's arms and their opponents Chinese+Ruskie+NK arms.

Level of reliability is 2 way street. Pakistan has to be reliable as well. I hope we don't get leaders like Aslam Beg or Hamid gul in future.

Future generals like Musharraf will keep USA as reliable as well.