Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

Society Military and Strategic Issues
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Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

nstar777

"Farid: You have portrayed a very high caliber of ignorance about historical facts of Pakistani politics. As for punjabi bashing u seem to have some personal grudge against the 55% of pakistanis who happen to be punjabis. The representation in the govt. and armed forces is proportional to the population of various regions and i realize that for u it is a very difficult concept to grasp."

You just proved my point. The decisions taken by 55% had always been wrong, resulting breakup of Pakistan in 1971 (though at that time punjabis were only 25% did not respect majority decision by giving power to Bengalis), there after kicking and murdering of non punjabis rulers. What respect you accept from other communities when you don't respect them.

Read my post again do not side track the actual argument of buying or not buying F-16. What's wrong if $5 B will be used on Education, Healthcare, Water, Electricity and Roads. I think you are not that dumb to understand this. This would benefit Punjabis more than wasting on useless fighters.

FARID

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Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

I am proud to be a Pakistani and i happen to be a panjabi. I respect and love all different cultures and peoples living in that land. I agree with u on that point that we need to spend more for our education and health, But this issue is multi dimensional and there is no simple answer. I think we all have made our positions clear on this issue of F-16's and it is time to move on to another subject.

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Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

Farid,
Before you go on posting useless information, tell me how it is you expect Pakistan to defend its airspace from an enemy with weapons which can see you & shoot you from over 100km away, while you (Pakistan) can only shoot the enemy at a distance within 25km?

Don't give me bullsh!t like "we have nukes, end of story". Tell me the scenario of how Pakistan's nuclear arsenal will survive an attack, if it was attacked by Indian Su-30MKI's (which are one of the finest a/c in the world), if PAF followed your twisted logic & failed to modernize the airforce which is filled with 1970's, & 1960's tech.

India purchased 190 Su-30's recently, and now they are acquiring 125 more advanced a/c, at a cost of US $7 billion. You really need to research the sh!t you say, before you say it.

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Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

Lahore_Ka_Cheetah

"Before you go on posting useless information, tell me how it is you expect Pakistan to defend its airspace from an enemy with weapons which can see you & shoot you from over 100km away, while you (Pakistan) can only shoot the enemy at a distance within 25km?

Don't give me bullsh!t like "we have nukes, end of story". Tell me the scenario of how Pakistan's nuclear arsenal will survive an attack, if it was attacked by Indian Su-30MKI's (which are one of the finest a/c in the world), if PAF followed your twisted logic & failed to modernize the airforce which is filled with 1970's, & 1960's tech.

India purchased 190 Su-30's recently, and now they are acquiring 125 more advanced a/c, at a cost of US $7 billion. You really need to research the sh!t you say, before you say it."

Tell me how many fighters were used in 1971 to save Pakistan from breakup? F-16 already purchased did nothing and became obsolete wasting billions of dollars. Don't you think diverting these billions where needed had imporved peoples lives. Perhaps you don't understand this. Your obsession of beating India would completely destroy the remaining Pakistan. Think logically. Where do you want to use these F-16? India is perhaps 10 times larger than Pakistan, why in the hell do you want fire power equal to India? Bottom line, the reason of War, Kashmir has already been compromised, even if war erupted, it would be loose-loose postion, it does not matter wheather you have F-16 or not.

FARID

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Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

18 fighters were used for that purpose, based out of Dhaka as part of No. 14 Squadron. As you can imagine, that was insufficient. When you consider that they were surround by IAF airbases on 3 sides.

The moral of the story is that more fighters are needed.

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Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

mAd_ScIeNtIsT,

"18 fighters were used for that purpose, based out of Dhaka as part of No. 14 Squadron. As you can imagine, that was insufficient. When you consider that they were surround by IAF airbases on 3 sides.

The moral of the story is that more fighters are needed."

Fight requires courage and justification. Even 1400 fighters would have not saved breakup in 1971. Pakistan had enough arms and army of 95000 they could have sustained onslaught for at least six months. But when army involved in corruption, rape, murder, looting own banks and destroying own infrastructure; can collapse with in no time like they surrendered to Indian army defacing themselves and the country. More over this F-16 are not being given to fight India but for so called "fight against war on terrorism". Why do you want killing machines to kill your poor downtrodden people? Simple rifles and light arms manufactured in Pakistan are sufficient to do this job!!!!

FARID

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Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

No, when only a fraction of the armed forces is based in East pakistan, with no way of being ever bring reinforced, it that is when Pakistan could not be saved from being divided.

The decision to surrender had nothing to do with lack of courage. Continued fighting would have led to nothing but eventual defeat anyway. Surrender saved the lives of countless thousands of soldiers and civilians who would have died anyway trying to defend land that could not be defended.

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Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

^^ 1971 was a combination of blunders clearly.
Our military leaders were put to shame . Credit of that goes to our own politicians. Sure Bharatis played their despicable role.

There was no need to start anarchy in East Pakistan. Mujib would have gotten substantial role in politics anyway.

As Farid wants to drag our army through mud, he would not listen to any reason why we ought to upgrade our capabilities.

Our army did goof up on one technical issue. Our "defense plans" were written in 1950s and we tried to use them in 1971. Well in 20 years Bharati army had completely changed. 1950 plan called for lightly armed forces in Eastern Wing while concentrating most of our fighting power in the West. There were many reasons:

  1. East Pakistan was not that easy to defend. It is encircled by Bharat almost on 3 sides, with a tiny sliver of link with Burma. The fourth side is the bay of bengal.

  2. Bharat won't be able to cope with attack on 2 fronts. Any time Bharatis attacked Eastern Wing, Pakistan would open Western front thus forcing Bharat to stop.

Reason #1 was accurate.
Reason #2 was no longer accurate due the 20 years aggressive defense spending by Bharat.

It was the miscalculation by military planners of Pakistan on Reason #2 that resulted in us leaving 40,000 troops as POWs. Had we done our calculations right, we could have asked for UN mandated cease-fire. Had we done our homework, we could have gone for some plan to get our military out through massive airlift. Hind sight is always 20/20 and we can play what if games until the cows come home.

However military miscalculations are acceptable where a complex geographical, social, and economical trends exist.

Still our military leaders were correct in challenging Mujib. Almost 40 years of BDeshi existence has proven that they are poorer and more devastated now. There were no jute smell in Islamabad roads. And above all, Bengalis are the ones who made minced meat of Sh. Mujib, his kids, his grand kids, every man, woman and child in his family.

Coming back to our topic. Farid miyan, you belong to the poor tribals who have no idea of living in a dangerous neighborhood. Weakness here means one thing. A horrible death of your kids. Just see Middle East and learn a lesson.

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Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

Please keep the discussion focused on the F-16s deal.
For all other discussions there are many other threads and also options for new ones.

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Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

Thread has been split and merged with another East Pakistan focused discussion;
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=225745

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Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

http://www.ericmargolis.com/

THE LEBANON CURSE STRIKES AGAIN
By Eric Margolis

“The old curse struck again. The fierce resistance of some 3,000 Hezbullah fighters to the world’s fourth most powerful military machine electrified the Muslim world, and horrified Israelis, who had foolishly dismissed Hezbullah as `a bunch of terrorists.’”

This war reminds me of 1965 war with India. If only 3000 soldiers can resist world fourth largest army with all sorts of modern warfare supported by Uncle Sam why can’t Pakistan? Paki army should learn lesson from this war that F-16 is not the solution to balance the fire power with India but it is the fighting spirit and reason for rightful defending one owns land. Definitely modern army though small should be well qualified and trained with modern war tactics. Paki army is mostly nothing but social welfare program for Punjabis, as I read in the news that military officers who make palaces on the bordering areas or even inside the country on free grabbed lands how the hell would they defend the country?

FARID

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Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)

These F16s are the ones we having been waiting for for ages lets get them where they belong and then look to the future with our JF17.
Pakistan still needs to help our forces any way possible.