Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)
The Massive Retaliation v Flexible Response approach to deterence occured within US Policy Planning Staff circles immediately after the Cold War thru to about 1965. Flexible Response is important, BUT the ultimate garuntee (sp) of survival is the nuclear arsenal.
The Falklands cannot be compared to the Indo-Pak situation. Argentina is a baby power, militarily, and knew that GB would not respond with such disproportion. It was just testing the waters. No policy staff in South Asia can assure that a situation will not spiral out of control.
Kargil and Dec 2002 proved that neither side will escalate due to the nuclear cloud over there heads.
Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)
what relevance does the nuclear cloud have? the nature of any potential future war is not going to be even remotely threatening to the existence of either nation to the point where nuclear weapons would be considered (meaning that the likely outcome of nation suicide would be an accepted fate).
though i think the probability of a future war is very low, if it occurs, it will almost certainly revolve around some sort of military penetrations in kashmir - which, no matter how you cut it, will never threaten national existence.
defence ministers might use tons of tough talk about nuclear weapons in a crisis situation, but both know that the other will definitely tolerate 1,000 more conventional skirmishes or wars (of the nature that one would expect in a pakistan/india war or skirmish) before resorting to nuclear weaponry.
Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)
my point was not contingent on the word “skirmish”…i shouldn’t have used it.
both India and Pakistan will most definitely tolerate a thousand more of their previous wars before committing national suicide or near-suicide.
keep in mind, i am not referring to usage of any hypothetical low-yield battlefield nukes, but the standard plan of deploying high-yield warheads towards the enemy’s major cities/hubs.
Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)
Spock,
Since 1947, it is Punjabi brain behind the ruling of Pakistan. Whether PM is Bengali, Sindhi, Pathan, Muhajir or what ever, ruling force is Army and Beaurocracy which is 95% Punjabi. The trick played by Punjabis that it is a Sindhi or Muhajir PM/President who is responsible for everything is not going to work anymore. History showed Punjabi army kicked Pms and Presidents at their whims.
Punjabis have always fired guns on the shoulders of rulers who did not belong to Punjab. After achieving their dirty goals, they hanged, killed or booted out these PMS and Presidents. Wait and see the end of Musharaf. I don’t see any difference.
Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)
Agreed! For the first many decades Punjabi and Mohajir elite has ruled Pakistan. This may be used as a bad thing for Pakistan based on your arguments.
However you ought to look at the other side of the picture as well (every pic has at least two sides).
Under Punjabi Mohajir rule, Sh. Mujib was a leader with a potential to become PM.
Under Bengali rule, the same Sh. Mujib quickly became **MM (Minced Meat). **FYI, Bengali rulers took Mujib, his wife, kids, grand kids, Uncles, Aunts, young, old, and chopped them up into a bloody mound of meat.
Under Punjabi Mohajir rule, Pushtoons in Frontier have thriving cities of Peshawar, Kohat, and Bannu.
Under Pashtoon rule, Afghanistan is a collection of bombed, burned, torutured out cities of Kabul, Kandhar, and Jalalabad.
Under Punjabi Mohajir rule, Balochis in Pakistan have an assembly, money, and self rule even when Balochis kill Pakistani soldiers.
Under Iranian rule, Balochis of Iranian side are hanged in public for minor crimes. No royalty of gas and oil, no assembly, no premier of Baloch origin.
Under Punjabi Mohajir rule, Urdu People (UP) are the most prosperous people in the region.
Under Hindu rule, UP and Bihar are the poorest, most destitute places in Bharat.
Under Punjabi Mohajir rule, Punjabis are the safe and prosperous while their counterparts in Bharat are persecuted.
Bottom line: Do the border-test. That means stand on any border of Pakistan and look on the other side. If you see the rivers of milk and honey flowing, and hoor + ghilman playing hide-and-seek, on the other side of the border, then pack your bags and mover over there.
However if you see the other side of the border poorer, more destitute, then thank god and thank Punjabi-Mohajir elite for keeping you better than your neighboring region. kapeesh!
And yes we do need latest weapons like F-16s to keep our country safe from the likes of Afghan beardos.
Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)
Spock:
Spock,
I don’t understand why you use word “Punjabi Muhajir”. It is only Punjabi who has ruled since 1947. Muhajirs were your “chamchaas” until they formed their MQM. Muhajirs came via Khokhrapar were beggars and had nothing. They settled in Karachi claiming evacuee property and prospered. No rich Muhajir came to Pakistan. They became wealthy after they were given lucrative jobs and grabbing properties. The person who was responsible for their prosperity was shot in Punjab by a Punjabi. What are you talking about UP, Behari bull****.
Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)
you really need to stay away from drugs, when did i mention UP or behari tikka kababs? I was just saying how you refer to everytihng, even pakhtun leaders as Punjabis, because of your anti-punjabi sentiments...
Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)
I think it's a shame that the US is awarding a dictatorship with advanced weapons, when people in Pakistan don't have access to clean water, education or healthcare.
The Bush Administration said on July 3 that it planned to sell Pakistan up to 36 advanced F-16 fighter jets built by Lockheed Martin Corp. in a weapons package that could be worth more than $5 billion.
The proposed sale of 18 new “Fighting Falcon” fighters with an option for 18 more demonstrates the United States’ commitment to a long-term relationship with Pakistan, White House spokesman Tony Snow told reporters.
The State Department said it was part of a drive to broaden a strategic partnership with Pakistan and advance U.S. interests in South Asia.
Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)
So you feel that US should award demo-crazies even when there is no clean water, healthcare, or education?
Defense of a country is as important as clean water. History shows that powerful and mighty survive and the rest parish.
We in Pakistan live in a dangerous neighborhood. Look at Afghanistan, they didn't have strong pro-West army and the result has been catastrophic. Now they have no clean water, no defense. They couldn't defend themselves against bunch of Arab terrorists. Now US, NATO's Tom, Dick, and Harry are ruling Afghan @$$ while kharashzada Kharazai the mayor of Kabul plays flute in his Kabuli kassle.
Thanks to strong Pak army, and the sacrifices of our brave soldiers, we have some semblence of law and order. Otherwise MQM in the South, and bunch of tribals in the North West are ready to sell their soul to the highest bidder in order to burn and torch their own cities.
Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)
Spock,
"you really need to stay away from drugs"
This is your true face. The point of discussion is whether huge amount to be spent on useless war machinery or on public welfare. It is Punjabis to decide which direction they want to go? It is not anti-Punjabi sentiments.
"Under Punjabi Mohajir rule, Urdu People (UP) are the most prosperous people in the region".
What in the hell is Punjabi Muhajir rule? What country are refereing to when you talk about Punjabi-uP mohajir cooperation?
Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)
We were lagging behind atleast 10 years.. we had nothing in our airforce to counter the IAF fighters. Induction of these F-16s with some of the very advanced weapons (like aim-120c5, jdams) and avionics suites will help us in balancing the IAF's huge technological edge over PAF.
It's 5$bn, which includes the new fighters, weapons, avionics, and i guess MLU upgradation of our current fleet too.
What made you think THESE f-16s are trash? what do you know about these f-16s and weapons/avionics which we're getting?
What will happen if any aggressor attacks Pakistan, and we'd have nothing with which we could fight or defend our country? They'll destroy all of the 'healthcare' facilities, 'businesses' and etc!
Even Prophet Mohammad (SAW) said that stay equipped with horses (that doesn't mean we should fight with horses in the 21st century) etc so that you can counter any threat. I dont remember the exact words and hadith no./book though.
Quaid-e-Azam also said a country without a strong air force is at the mercy of any aggressor!
These people will be the first to leave Pakistan when it'll be attacked!
err... i dont know why i'm replying to these stupid illogical comments :s
Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)
Encrypted,
Your views are not based on facts. In all previous three wars, it was Pakistan who initiated these wars. Now rulers has compromised/soldout on Kashmir issue there is absolutely no justification of even maintaining huge army. There is absolutely no chance of aggression by India, unless Pakistan makes the blunder again.
Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)
Farid, actually, its your views which are based on complete biased Hindustani propaganda. It was always India who crossed the border and started aggression :)
You first care about your luxuries instead of your own home's security.. you want to live in your house without any walls, doors and windows.