Burka Ban

[My_SeCrEt]

Re: Burka Ban

i know right...they said it would bring the people together..like you know socially

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Burka Ban

I think even I want to be able to see the person I'm talking to, and I'm muslim. Hence, why I hate the niqaabs. I'm a girl, why do niqaab from me??? I never understood the mentality.

[picoico]

Re: Burka Ban

@PyariCgudia

It could be worse. I think they want to get rid of the more fundamentalist people in the population. So, if you want to wear a veil, etc, then you probably should not live in these countries.

By the way, what is the difference between this, and how when you travel to certain areas in Balochistan and NWFP, and you're asked to cover or else leave?

Asking to cover up in the NWFP is consistant with the local culture, but the Burqa ban is a double standard, i.e. contradicts the local culture (with respect to freedom of xyz). Fret Wizard said it well...

As for Muslim alienating themselves from Dutch society...let's be honest here...they're not exactly embracing Muslims either...just ask the unemployed there....

As Fret said, it's a stupid idea if indeed the goal is integration. You don't integrate people by alienating them over non-issues. Even if most Muslims don't wear the Burqa, the message is loud and clear to the whole community.

[picoico]

Re: Burka Ban

@Light Bearer

They way I see it, it is also a security issue. With so many suicide bombing cases going on in the rest of the world.

Then why target women in burqa's? Is there a reason for it? What's the rationale?

[picoico]

Re: Burka Ban

@legbreakgoogly

Its a case of when in Rome, mate.

Well, in this case it's a matter of Rome saying dress how you want, unless you're a Muslim...even if you're a Roman by birth...and even though an estimated two or three dozen people dress in the offending manner...in the name of a 'security' threat that has no basis...

[shweetdreamz]

Re: Burka Ban

@Light Bearer

Maybe they are also becoming hardliners like KSA where the scene is totally opposite anyway it's their country and they have the right to change their law anytime they want, the people who don't like it tough luck.

But to implement this they have to admit openly that they are not liberal anymore and do not support the right to choose stand.

exactly. baat khatam paisa hazam.

[Light_Bearer]

Re: Burka Ban

@picoico

Then why target women in burqa's? Is there a reason for it? What's the rationale?

How do you know what's behind a burqa. It could be anyone drag queens/suicide bombers/women you would never know.

[_Lay-D_Honey]

Re: Burka Ban

@Antumul alona

^ someone posted on this thread that this is muslims fault living there. They said this with the premise that muslims have not integrated with the local non-muslim Dutch. Would you consider this to be a true statement? what's your opinion?

No its not the muslims fault that they're livin here.. Ma parents came here 28 yrs ago.. They intergrated pretty good here.. They didnt have many problems.. but those were other times..

Yeah its true that there r many muslim ppl here who dont want to intergrade.. then Im talkin abt Turkish n Maroccan ppl.. as far as I know pakistani ppl dont have issues wid intergrading coz they figured out that its a must to have a succesful life here.. but dont think that the ppl who did intergrade forgot their background..

The whole muslim thing came up after 9/11.. before that a Dutch politician was murdered.. he was against muslims in general.. but the murderer was a dutch guy.. so they burried that topic.. then 9/11.. it was the topic of the day like in many other countries.. But the real problem started after the Dutch director Theo van Gogh was murdered by a extremist.. u know that dude who worked wid another dutch politician Ayaan Hirsi Ali (whoze in USA these dayz..) they made a movie 2gether called Submission.. it was a movie against muslims.. I cant tell u in words how badly muslims here were offended.. But after that.. It was THE topic of the day here.. muslims this.. muslims that.. I think they got scared of muslims.. BUT the mistake they made is the thought that extremists n muslims r the same..

I think not only muslim have to intergrade but the dutch ppl have to intergrade to.. into the muslim way of livin.. so they can understand y muslim act like this or say sumfin like that..
If iId go to Australia for example.. (dont think australia n holland r the same coz they're not..) I'll have to adjust too.. I cant live there wid the dutch values n rules or whatever.. I'll have to sacrifise sumthing..

My opinion is that muslim also have to intergrade for a part.. BUT they should not give up their religion or background.. Hijaab is noooo problem for me.. n many dutch ppl dont have problems wid it either..

U know its hard for me to give an opinion abt this coz I was born here.. I've been brought wid dutch rules n their system.. I can understand y dutch ppl want this.. but I also can understand y muslim want this or that.. so to be honest im in the middle of these issues.. BUT if it comes 2 decisions.. I will make them as a muslim..

[_Lay-D_Honey]

Re: Burka Ban

@Fret Wizard

Then I suppose they should all invest in video teleoconferencing devices so they actually "see" the person they are talking to on the phone.

Stupid Dutch.....

now I feel a lil bit offended.. coz many of ma friendz.. sum of ma best friends r dutch.. ppl wid I've been brought wid r dutch.. yeah I admit that there r sum stupid dutch ppl.. the politicians r stupid stupid stupid .. they're doin all the brainwash..but plz dont generalize that all dutch r stupid..

[Fret_Wizard]

Re: Burka Ban

@Light Bearer

How do you know what’s behind a burqa. It could be anyone drag queens/suicide bombers/women you would never know.

How do you know what is behind any piece of clothing? Tell me, do bank robbers wear burkas when robbing a bank to hide those shotguns?

[picoico]

Re: Burka Ban

@Light Bearer

How do you know what's behind a burqa. It could be anyone drag queens/suicide bombers/women you would never know.

Umm...those who were sucide bombers were out in plain clothes, in fact made an effort to 'fit in'. if anything, a woman who wore a burqa would take it off for such a "mission"....

It's an absurd concern...

[CrescentWarrior]

Re: Burka Ban

all i know is the dutch are in need of some serious b!tch slapping!

[CM]

Re: Burka Ban

Every time I visit this site, I die a little because people here are so ****ing stupid. Lets start off with the Burqa ban. Its a law that violates the ICCPR, CEDAW, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights etc.

Now moving on from the fact that they violate conventions established in the aftermath of the holocaust to eliminate the racist ideologies that are part of European culture, lets go to the substance of the matter.

Who has the right to tell a woman what she should or she should not do? A simple illustration:

You wear a shirt right? Well I find that an oppressive symbol according to what I feel - not based on facts mind you, purely based on my subjective feelings and personal assumptions and biases. Thus i legislate the fact that you can not wear a shirt.

Your opinion does not matter. Why? Because this is what I think, and whatever you say is irrelevant because I am allowed to do whatever I think is right in my country.

The irony is that the dutch government is violating the right to freedom of expression, that they so cherish when it comes to the defamation of religious symbols.

I seriously pity those of you who defend the banning of the burqa. I bet next you would be happy with small golden stars for Muslims.

[Roman]

Re: Burka Ban

@Fret Wizard

No, because in a country like Saudi Arabia, you know what to expect, it's very clear, people are expected to dress a certain way (no revealing clothing). The dutch on the other hand are supposed to be "free" to dress as they please. However, now they seem to be picking and choosing what people should wear, and that for Muslims. I wonder if they'll ban that same clothing for nuns as well?

Let me spell it out for you so that it makes sense by your logic:

*in a country like Holland, you know what to expect from now on. It is very clear. People are NOT allowed to wear burqa if the law is passed. They ARE picking and choosing. *

What's your beef with that if you don't have a beef with Saudia Arabia?

Also, Muslims DO NOT wear burqa. Only very very few do, which specifically means Muslims DO NOT wear burqa, only very very few do.

[CrescentWarrior]

Re: Burka Ban

@Roman

Let me spell it out for you so that it makes sense by your logic:

*in a country like Holland, you know what to expect from now on. It is very clear. People are NOT allowed to wear burqa if the law is passed. They ARE picking and choosing. *

What's your beef with that if you don't have a beef with Saudia Arabia?

Also, Muslims DO NOT wear burqa. Only very very few do, which specifically means Muslims DO NOT wear burqa, only very very few do.

Do saudi arabians draw cartoons of other peoples religions and incite racial hatred amongst the youth especially? No they dont...

[CrescentWarrior]

Re: Burka Ban

I often get confused between the thread "bakra ban" and "burka ban" lol

[Fret_Wizard]

Re: Burka Ban

@Roman

Let me spell it out for you so that it makes sense by your logic:

*in a country like Holland, you know what to expect from now on. It is very clear. People are NOT allowed to wear burqa if the law is passed. They ARE picking and choosing. *

What’s your beef with that if you don’t have a beef with Saudia Arabia?

Also, Muslims DO NOT wear burqa. Only very very few do, which specifically means Muslims DO NOT wear burqa, only very very few do.

Actually, let me spell it out for you, so it’s easy for you to understand. Like I said earlier, this has nothing to do with religion. It’s all about the basic human rights and freedoms that places like Holland boast about. Who are they to say what their citizens should or shouldn’t wear? Why do you keep brining Saudi Arabia into this? Saudi Arabia and Holland are 2 very different environments. SA is a conservative society, which doesn’t boast of the western style freedom that Holland seems to love to boast about, but ends up as hypocrites. If Saudia Arabia boasted the same style of freedom while forcing burquas on everyone, then I would have a beef with them. You’re comparing apples to oranges.

[Roman]

Re: Burka Ban

@Fret Wizard

Actually, let me spell it out for you, so it’s easy for you to understand. Like I said earlier, this has nothing to do with religion. It’s all about the basic human rights and freedoms that places like Holland boast about. Who are they to say what their citizens should or shouldn’t wear? Why do you keep brining Saudi Arabia into this? Saudi Arabia and Holland are 2 very different environments. SA is a conservative society, which doesn’t boast of the western style freedom that Holland seems to love to boast about, but ends up as hypocrites. If Saudia Arabia boasted the same style of freedom while forcing burquas on everyone, then I would have a beef with them. You’re comparing apples to oranges.

So let me get this straight, your defense of human rights and freedom only gets activated when a free society like Holland tries to impose a law which may be convertraversial to the philosophy of free society, while since SA is a conservative society it is exempt from such criticism???

The reason I keep bringing SA is because you and many like you on this thread seem to be holding some kinda flagship of defense to human rights and freedom, which is all well and good, but I’m only pointing out the fact that *‘look guys, things ain’t really that bad in Holland freedom-wise. They still got 99% of the freedom stuff taken care of. So if you want to spend your energies defending freedom then may be you should direct it towards where they are needed most’. :halo:

*The kind of troubles Europe is having with conservative Muslims I think they are moving in the right direction. There are about 50 million Muslims in Europe right now. By 2025 one third of all European childeren will be born to Muslim families. “Freedom” isn’t even relevent.

[CrescentWarrior]

Re: Burka Ban

@Roman

So let me get this straight, your defense of human rights and freedom only gets activated when a free society like Holland tries to impose a law which may be convertraversial to the philosophy of free society, while since SA is a conservative society it is exempt from such criticism???

The reason I keep bringing SA is because you and many like you on this thread seem to be holding some kinda flagship of defense to human rights and freedom, which is all well and good, but I’m only pointing out the fact that ‘look guys, things ain’t really that bad in Holland freedom-wise. They still got 99% of the freedom stuff taken care of. So if you want to spend your energies defending freedom then may be you should direct it towards where they are needed most’. :halo:

The kind of troubles Europe is having with conservative Muslims I think they are moving in the right direction. There are about 50 million Muslims in Europe right now. By 2025 one third of all European childeren will be born to Muslim families. “Freedom” isn’t even relevent.

Your missing the point dear roman. People have critisised saudi arabia for a long time (even though the leaders have a pro american stance), but have failed to critisise non muslim countries like serbia, france, holland etc for thier so called freedom of rights. What we want is this so called freedom title they hold, to be taken away from them. The truth is even under so called freedom of rights, many people suffer racial harrassment and intimidation unfortunately if they chose to wear an islamic dress. Therefore if any muslim country is critisised i think they are hypocrites…

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Burka Ban

@picoico

Asking to cover up in the NWFP is consistant with the local culture, but the Burqa ban is a double standard, i.e. contradicts the local culture (with respect to freedom of xyz). Fret Wizard said it well...

As for Muslim alienating themselves from Dutch society...let's be honest here...they're not exactly embracing Muslims either...just ask the unemployed there....

As Fret said, it's a stupid idea if indeed the goal is integration. You don't integrate people by alienating them over non-issues. Even if most Muslims don't wear the Burqa, the message is loud and clear to the whole community.

And asking women not to wear burqas is in accordance with Dutch culture. The folks who don't like that culture should move and find some other place to live. The person who follows "sunnah" and wears niqaab should also have the sense to follow the same sunnah that says to move away when a community is not accepting of you, instead of fighting back. If you expect the Dutch to bend their cultural ways and allow people to walk amongst them that practice the burqa, then expecting the NWFP and Saudia Arabia, etc to allow people to walk amongst them that don't wear the burqa is only natural. I went to saudia arabia recently, and I wore an abaya, because it was the law of the land, and I had to respect their law. Its no different for a muslim woman to not wear a burqa because of respect for the Dutch law. Don't many muslims live in the United States, where all laws are not in entire accordance with Islamic laws? We're not allowed to have 4 wives here. Polygamy is banned, and so muslims respect that for the most part and don't have 4 wives. Do you see muslims raising hell about how they're not allowed to practice polygamy here? Why? Because its not necessary in Islam anyway to practice polygamy, so who cares? Likewise, the burqa isn't necessary in Islam, so who cares? Its not like the Dutch are asking these people to abstain from a REQUIRED religious practice. They're not destroying your mosques. They're not preventing you from worshipping Allah. They're not preventing you from fasting, or from donating in charity, or from going to Hajj or anything else that is a fundamental activity/belief. They're not trying to even change the way you think.

I'll get more worried if they actually do start throwing muslims in concentration camps.

But the fact remains: muslims remain uneducated, for the most part, and ignorant and illiterate, and jaahil. The onus is on us to fix ourselves, and educate ourselves about our own deen, and educate ourselves in general and do good things in the world. Then we wont have to worry about such nonsense. The fact that we're being abused in the world, is only because we let ourselves be abused. So where is our Islamic leadership when we need them? What is the muslim community in the Netherlands doing to advance themselves? Sure, there are some families that are trying to move ahead and progress, but most aren't. And if its hard, because the Dutch wont let them advance, then move! Plenty of countries where one can make their mark.