Re: Bugti's son files case against Musharraf
Ok that is all fine and dandy, but you keep saying Bugti was a traitor, and his son as well, but my question is simple, who gets to decide who is a traitor, in Pakistan?
The constitution does. The very same one you use to define Musharraf as a traitor defines Bugti as one as well.
Alright, so how did the constitution state Bugti is a traitor? It does state Musharraf is one.
Re: Bugti's son files case against Musharraf
Open rebellion against the state is an act of treason. Simple.
If he was such a bad traitor, he should have been captured and a trial should have been held. You cant just go in and shoot people like that. Those worried about soiling Pakistan's name because Musharraf will have to undergo trial, arent you forgetting that holding a trial is more civilized and respectful then gunning down a former Chief Minister just like that?
If we have to try Mushrraf there is tons of stuff we can put him on trial for, but killing of Bugti is not one of them. Bugti and rest of tribal warlords in Baluchistan are the reason why that province is so backward, & for 60 years ever govt has tried to keep them happy by pumping billions or rupees in their pockets & as a result people of that province are in abject poverty, while warlords have their own private armies and jails. So, we have 3 options either to buyout the warlords/thugs or get rid of them & empower the people.
Open rebellion against the state is an act of treason. Simple.
Ok fine, that seems like a charge to me, but sadly and me, or anyone else aren't the ones who get to decide who is carrying out an open rebellion, its the country's judicial system.
It was wrong to just kill Bugti like that. He should have had a fair trial. I am sure if he really was a traitor, the court would have had no problems in proving he was one. This was another mistake Musharraf made.
Ok fine, that seems like a charge to me, but sadly and me, or anyone else aren't the ones who get to decide who is carrying out an open rebellion, its the country's judicial system.
It was wrong to just kill Bugti like that. He should have had a fair trial. I am sure if he really was a traitor, the court would have had no problems in proving he was one. This was another mistake Musharraf made.
I don't think Bugti would've been caught so easily considering that he had huge army (and foreign support) at his dispense to resist, he was killed while his own army fought Pakistan army.
Ok fine, that seems like a charge to me, but sadly and me, or anyone else aren't the ones who get to decide who is carrying out an open rebellion, its the country's judicial system.
It was wrong to just kill Bugti like that. He should have had a fair trial. I am sure if he really was a traitor, the court would have had no problems in proving he was one. This was another mistake Musharraf made.
Says you. Treason is an international norm. It has been for many centuries. Wikipedia.org has all the info you need on it. Killing a traitor is wrong? Some patriot.
The Baloch have no big issue with Musharaf as such - their biggest problem is the BOUNDARIES of pakistan. A large section of the Bloch community no longer believes in any form of Pakistan - they want total independence. Musharaf has been a problewm for them for 8 years - Pakistan a problem for them for 61 years.
Yes Mush, Sharif, Zardari are all traitors. lets prosecute them all.
CM, who gets to decide whose a traitor and whose not? Many Baluchs consider Musharraf a traitor.
Says you. Treason is an international norm. It has been for many centuries. Wikipedia.org has all the info you need on it. Killing a traitor is wrong? Some patriot.
If thats 'your' verdict, fine but it doesnt apply sadly, or otherwise every Baluch is a traitor by your silly definition.
You cant just skip the judicial process and start labeling people traitors. This is why the province is on the verge of a break away while you continue to live in your fantasy world where you think Baluchis have nothing but love for Pakistan.
Re: Bugti's son files case against Musharraf
^ sahab if someone does not surrender to the law enforcement, and is wanted for a crime punishable by death (treason/killing various government people in Balochistan) then the judicial process validates going after him with deadly force.
lots of criminals get killed resisting the police, big whoop.
sahab if someone does not surrender to the police, and is wanted for a crime punishable by death (treason) then the judicial process validates going after him with deadly force.
'Wanted for a crime punishable by death' please let me know which court came out with that sentence, before Bugti was offed. This is no different from the pocliyas going out and murdering Murtaza Bhutto. I hate Bugti, but Musharra made him a hero amongst his Baluchs, who are already disenchanted with Pakistan.
Re: Bugti's son files case against Musharraf
the court does not come up with sentences before people are arrested. the state wants people for a particular reason, captures them, then brings them to court.
Re: Bugti's son files case against Musharraf
There was no way to capture Bugti, he had an army to defend him.
Modern military theory states that to defeat an army, you target its C3 infrastructure (command, communication, control). Bugti was part of his army's command... it could not be defeated without destroying him.
Arrests and trials are for civilians, not guerillas. Battle and war is for guerillas.
Re: Bugti's son files case against Musharraf
^ i agree. even in a civilian vernacular his killing is perfectly ok though, since you dont need a death penalty to legally get killed by state forces, you just need to shoot at them.
Re: Bugti's son files case against Musharraf
Ravage, what do you have to say about the people of Baluchistan who arent happy with all this? Un ko bhi traitors label kar dey, aur ura den hum?
Also, now that the case is finally going into the courts, lets see what the outcome is. Will you respect the courts decision if it indeed deems that the assassination of Bugti was wrong?
Re: Bugti’s son files case against Musharraf
it seems people from across the country, liked pres. Musharaf.
BBC NEWS | South Asia | Musharraf resigns: Pakistanis react
Ravage, what do you have to say about the people of Baluchistan who arent happy with all this? Un ko bhi traitors label kar dey, aur ura den hum?
I am against collective punishment. even if a group supports a murderer, the group is not liable for the murderers crimes.
if certain people in the group start behaving the same way as Bugti, the same fate for them is perfectly ok.
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Also, now that the case is finally going into the courts, lets see what the outcome is. Will you respect the courts decision if it indeed deems that the assassination of Bugti was wrong?
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Would you accept it if it turns out the other way? To this day supporters of Bhutto cry about the court decision that got him killed, so ofcourse we are pre-supposing a fair trial, which in Pakistan's history is quite rare for political figures.
I expect that it is plausible that some procedural violation might have occurred, Form A stamped by civil servant B didnt get signed etc etc. However, there is no grounds for supposing that this is in principle an illegal act, just because a court didnt have him killed.
I am against collective punishment. even if a group supports a murderer, the group is not liable for the murderers crimes.
if certain people in the group start behaving the same way as Bugti, the same fate for them is perfectly ok.
Would you accept it if it turns out the other way? To this day supporters of Bhutto cry about the court decision that got him killed, so ofcourse we are pre-supposing a fair trial, which in Pakistan's history is quite rare for political figures.
Yes I would :)
[quote]
I expect that it is plausible that some procedural violation might have occurred, Form A stamped by civil servant B didnt get signed etc etc. However, there is no grounds for supposing that this is in principle an illegal act, just because a court didnt have him killed.
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So with that logic, the Murtaza Bhutto murder was also legitimate, infact even more legitimate because the police was carrying a warrant for his arrest?
Re: Bugti's son files case against Musharraf
i dont really know much about Murtuza Bhutto, but if they were carrying a warrant, and if they had failed to arrest him through less violent means, then sure. Especially if the warrant was for violent crimes, and he had a history of shooting at law enforcement agencies.
Bugti was a known fugitive. The state knew he was a fugitive, he knew he was a fugitive. He was living in a cave for God's sake, you're not gonna get a court sentence on someone who shoots at you from his cave when you try to get him to court. The whole notion of court sentences is silly in this context.
Re: Bugti's son files case against Musharraf
Ravage, thats what I want to know, you are labeling him as a 'known fugitive', and now you are saying the state knew he was a fugitive. But where was the official or legal evidence that states hes a fugitive? When the MQM leaders were shot down, even when they were convicted by courts in absentia, they cried about extra-judicial killings, and still do.
And congrats, you just legitimized the Murtaza Bhutto murder case!! I wonder why it was considered wrong, even by the same PM who sent the orders to arrest him, and ultimately helped topple her Government.
You just dont go out and gun down people like that. Put them on trial! Even Saddam had a trial, even if it was a farce! If the court verdict comes out in my favor, I hope you admit you were wrong. If it doesn't, I will will certainly admit Bugti is a traitor.