Buddha's religion is fundamentally a religion of Indus Valley Civilization

When I first got interested in Indus Valley Civilization, I saw remarkable order of Indus Valley cities WITHOUT apparent signs of strong kingship or military control.
This was perplexing to me. We know order in society can be implemented through a strong government. And this has been the case in most of the early civilizations, like Chinese, Egyptian, and Mesopotamian. All of them had standing armies and strong kings which ensured unity among people and order in society.

But this is not the case with Indus Valley. There are no signs of great armies and strong kings. There are no signs of grandeur in the form of Pyramids and other great architecture. All excavations from Indus Valley point to a very down-to-earth civilization, a civilization of common men, a civilization of farmers and merchants.
And yet this civilization endured for thousands of years.

On top of that, the Indus Valley Civilization covered an enormous land from Eastern Afghanistan to Western India.

I thought that continued existence of such an orderly civilization in such a huge territory, and without strong military, could only be possible through a** very strong religion and traditions**.

I know Hinduism is basically an imported Aryan religion. The seals excavated from this civilization also don’t reveal its clear connections with Hinduism. So I thought there must be some religion other than Hinduism that incorporates characteristics of Indus Valley religion. Buddhism obviously was the next option, especially with its teachings being very pacifist, very down-to-earth, similar to findings from Indus Valley.

So today I did a search using the terms: “harappa civilization buddha teachings”. And the second link said what I was looking for. Here it is:

http://www.buddhanet.net/fundbud2.htm

In Buddhism we have a religion which draws most of its inspiration from the Indus Valley religion, the ideas of renunciation, meditation, karma and rebirth, ultimate liberation - ideas which were important to the Indus Valley Civilization. The Buddha Himself indicated the Indus Valley origins of His tradition when He said that the path which He taught was an ancient path and the goal to which He pointed to was an ancient goal. We also have a Buddhist belief in six Buddhas prior to the Buddha Shakyamuni within this aeon. All these point to a continuity between the tradition of the Indus Valley Civilization and the teachings of the Buddha.
If we look at Buddhism and Hinduism we will find a greater or lesser proportion of elements taken from either of the two traditions of the Indus Valley Civilization and Aryan Civilization. For instance, if we look at Buddhism, the greater proportion was taken from the Indus Valley Civilization religion, a lesser proportion from the Aryan tradition. That is why we find mention of the Aryan gods in Buddhist scripture, though their role is peripheral, an example of an Aryan element in the Buddhism tradition. On the other hand, if we look at some schools of Hinduism, we find a greater proportion of elements taken from the Aryan tradition and a lesser proportion from the Indus Valley Civilization. We find caste emphasized, the authority of the revealed scripture of the Aryans - the Vedas - emphasized and sacrifices emphasized. Alongside, we find a place made for renunciation, meditation, karma and rebirth.

Re: Buddha's religion is fundamentally a religion of Indus Valley Civilization

By the way, you probably would know that teachings associated with Hazrat Isa in Bible are very similar in substance to Buddha's teachings. Especially those teachings which call for love of fellow human beings.
Many scholars therefore believe that early Christians used Buddhist texts when writing down their scripture.
If this is true then not just the Buddhist world but also all the Christian world uses the teachings of Pakistan's ancient Indus Valley people!

Just as the original Indus Valley people are alive in present-day populations of Pak and parts of India; similarly their religion, thoughts, and teachings live on in the form of Buddhism and Christianity.

Re: Buddha's religion is fundamentally a religion of Indus Valley Civilization

religion is only Islam...whether its called judaism or christianity...may be hinduism and bhuddists were also true religion of islam which got corrupted. hazrat Adam and all prophets till RASool ALlah pb.u.h brought the religion of ISLAM.

Re: Buddha’s religion is fundamentally a religion of Indus Valley Civilization

This Neo Budhism theory can be better sold to some school children who have just started their learnings.

Budhism is a religion that had taken shape from Hinduism.

In view of the large number of figurines[52]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia) found in the Indus valley, it has been widely suggested that the Harappan people worshipped a Mother goddess](Mother goddess - Wikipedia) symbolizing fertility. However, this view has been disputed by S. Clark.[53]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia) Some Indus valley seals show swastikas](Swastika - Wikipedia) which are found in later religions and mythologies, especially in Indian religions](Indian religions - Wikipedia) such as **Hinduism](Hinduism - Wikipedia), Buddhism](Buddhism - Wikipedia) and Jainism](Jainism - Wikipedia). The earliest evidence for elements of Hinduism](Hinduism - Wikipedia) are present before and during the early Harappan](Periodisation of the Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia) period[54]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia)[55]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia). Phallic symbols resembling the Hindu Siva lingam](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siva_lingam) have been found in the Harappan remains.[56]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia)[57]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia)
Many Indus valley seals show animals. One famous seal shows a figure seated in a posture reminiscent of the Lotus position](Lotus position - Wikipedia) and surrounded by animals was named after Pashupati](Pashupati - Wikipedia) (lord of cattle), an epithet of Shiva](Shiva - Wikipedia) and **Rudra](Rudra - Wikipedia).[58]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia)[59]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia).[60]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia)

In the earlier phases of their culture, the Harappans buried their dead; however, later, especially in the Cemetery H culture](Cemetery H culture - Wikipedia) of the late Harrapan period, they also cremated](Cremation - Wikipedia) their dead and buried the ashes in burial urns, a transition notably also alluded to in the **Rigveda](Rigveda - Wikipedia), where the forefathers “both cremated (agnidagdhá-) and uncremated (ánagnidagdha-)” are invoked (**RV 10](RV10 - Wikipedia).15.14).

Re: Buddha's religion is fundamentally a religion of Indus Valley Civilization

Arleitter:

[quote]
This Neo Budhism theory can be better sold to some school children who have just started their learnings.
[/quote]

It could be said that original religion of new-comers absorbed some traits of Indus Valley religion to end up as Hinduism.

I believe Islam is more than just another religion. It is the Deen.

Re: Buddha's religion is fundamentally a religion of Indus Valley Civilization

^ kis chakkar men phas gaey ho khoji bhai?

I know what you mean btw when it comes to the Indus Valley Civilization ... the proof is in the 'pudding'

Re: Buddha's religion is fundamentally a religion of Indus Valley Civilization

^ It is an interesting subject for me. And I am appalled at so little attention people give to that ancient great civilization.
I remember from my childhood reading about Mohenjodaro that nothing is known about those people, as if those people just disappeared. Best idea was that they were pushed further south by invading Aryans. It made no sense to me even at that time.

I am also surprised why people don't consider that this civilization encompassed vast areas while lacking grandeur of kingship and tools of war. How could they do that?!
The answer I believe is in their religion. And glimpses of their religion are present in Buddhism.

Re: Buddha's religion is fundamentally a religion of Indus Valley Civilization

This is a really interesting thread.

I have queries perhaps you can investigate Khoji.

First, how and when did the "cross-over" take place. The cross-over meaning Buddhism take root in China and Japan after leaving Indian territory and Hinduism enter from the Aryan predecessor. If you look at a map, you will see that Aryan invaders come from Persia, for some reason they take root in India leaving the Harrapan civilisation alone, which creates the basis for Buddhism and takes root East of India. This cross-over mechanics will be interesting to work out.

I'll come up with more questions soon. Peace

Re: Buddha’s religion is fundamentally a religion of Indus Valley Civilization

Also, please study this timeline.

Harappa is called a pre-historic civilisation part of the IVC. It is estimated to have existed around 6000 BC, that predates Hinduism by 1500 years and Buddhism by 5500 years. From the timeline and some knowledge of the locations it seems that precursors to Buddhism were around 870 BC. On the other hand Jainism seems to cross paths with it.

According to this the civilisation lasted a whacking 7000 years. So it is possible that gradual trade or people entering the region bearing gifts brought the material of such religions. In which case:

Q) Have you made sure that the findings of Buddhist artifacts in Harappa are from the late periods or the early one?

Because if the findings are of the late period on the same site then it can be explained by nomadic trade/gifts since Buddhism took root in India in the later IVC era, but if they are found as part of the pre-historic then you need to show how you can make sure it is pre-historic and then what the theory is of the migration movements of people holding such beliefs, to the birth place of Buddha.

Re: Buddha’s religion is fundamentally a religion of Indus Valley Civilization

For me the Jain thing is a wildcard, everyone wants claim to the oldest civilisation in the subcontinent to argue a sense of authenticity.

To me an equally plausible explanation is that they operated as a pit stop for trade or travel between East and West gradually adopting aspects of the cultures of their visitors.

Study also the migration of the region:

The evidence has been taken from the language formations.

This idea is supported by the timing of the main migrations of the Aryans - around 3-2000 BC. The IVC was already in place but accordingly the Andronovo northerners Andronovo culture - Wikipedia moved south and they would have characteristic mongoloid features. These features are found in some artifacts found in the IVC. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mohenjo-daro_Priesterk%C3%B6nig.jpeg

So it seems these areas have gradually changed as people moved through them.

If you look at this link you will see racial comparisons between people from different regions. It is interesting that Huxley’s map File:Huxley races.png - Wikipedia shows that to the south east of this ancient region of the IVC a whole group of Australoids are present, the only other place is Australia.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=SZWE7O-5vusC&pg=PA638&lpg=PA638&dq=race+of+mohenjo+daro&source=bl&ots=LLhgbodHks&sig=gIo3XuLIJuISWlXA3af74cxxp2g&hl=en&ei=N90FTPBAqLzSBPO0nJ0M&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=race%20of%20mohenjo%20daro&f=false

This link is a complete book - good link

This link shows the Australoid - Mohenjo daro connection. It could therefore be that late in the Aryan migration the people of these places assimilated with their new neighbours or were pushed to the south of India. The four types of skull found means that it is likely that the area is an ancient pit stop - a culture bridge.

Also, if they are so ancient there would have been a time when they connected with the Aboriginies from Australia.

This seems to suggest that Australians have lived in Australia since 125,000 - 40,000 years, it coud hence be possible that IVC had migrants from the seas around 10,000 years ago.

i totaly agree... its a way of life.

Hello. I am not sure about Aryans leaving Harrappans alone.
Aryans conquered this area, and imposed most of their culture and values over Harrappans. The conquered people eventually had to give up their culture etc. And now we have no signs of Harrappan culture left in Pakistan.

However, Aryans also got effected by many elements of Harrappan life, such as yoga, meditation, karma, etc.
Buddha's time may have been the time when Harrappan culture and religion was still known to people. Buddha picked up on that, and created his religion.
His religion had become quite popular in this area for long time. Had Buddha not revived Harrappan religion, it would have been lost to the world just like several other attributes of this lost civilization.

[quote]
Q) Have you made sure that the findings of Buddhist artifacts in Harappa are from the late periods or the early one?
[/quote]

Not sure about that. Will look for it.

Re: Buddha's religion is fundamentally a religion of Indus Valley Civilization

[quote]
This seems to suggest that Australians have lived in Australia since 125,000 - 40,000 years, it coud hence be possible that IVC had migrants from the seas around 10,000 years ago.
[/quote]

Connection between IVC and Australian people is very much possible. Same goes for connection between Tamil and Australian people. Because I think IVC people were cousins of Tamil people, although with a different culture, language, etc.
On the other hand, connection between IVC/Tamil and Ethiopian people is also possible. I have seen some Ethiopians who look strikingly similar to Tamils of today.

But who knows?

Yes, that is what I thought. I meant it not as my postulate but as an assumption. The Aryans would had to have left the IVC alone in order for Buddhism to have started in IVC without Aryan influence. So you have answered that question.

Yes ... I think people have had problems associating connections of people with language. These are different from racial connections and cultural ones. Since languages can be borrowed. My first language is English for example. But to all extents my culture is a type of Pakistani one and am racially an Indo-Pak.

So even though the Dravidian languages resemble Balochi it can simply be a bought language.

With the aid of my wife's input ... I gather that people of the South Indian settlements went to live in the IVC area, which explains their presence.

It could be that Minoans and Mesopotamians first met there with the South Indians and created transport havens in the region. Later the Aryans wanted a piece of the action and more or less took over. The many years led to interbreeding between the Europeans, Mongoloids, and South Asians to make the Pakistani races, Sindhis and Punjabis and to a lesser degree the Balochis who seem to be more purer than the other two.

Would you say this makes sense?

this is one of the most interesting threads iv come upon in gs..refreshing

Re: Buddha's religion is fundamentally a religion of Indus Valley Civilization

The main queston still hangs is that although Buddha was born in the late IVC period in a region in north east India/Nepal. How can one make the argument that Hinduism was not the precursor to Buddhism and a type of IVC religion was the precursor when physically Buddha lived in the East and the IVC was located in the West and in between them were a whole nation of Hindus who had been practicing for millenia?

The assumption would have to mean that Buddha traveled to the IVC region and took the religion back.

Then the second question is did IVC have the same set of beliefs in the early period as it had in the later periods or did it change?

The next question is what proof is there that artifacts of Buddhism found in IVC ruins were not the result of Buddhism coming to the region, but the source of Buddhism steming from the region?

Edit:
This edit is after I had finished posting all that is below. I did not want to go in too much detail in this thread. But your question spurred the topic. And I could not stop when I got started. I might be saying some stuff which you may not have even questioned, but it is just the natural flow. Please overlook the off-topic discussion.


psyah:

I think it would be wrong to assume that Hinduism was being practiced in India for thousands of years. This religion actually is an import to India from West.

Hinduism has many gods and traditions common with old Persian religion. In fact both North Indians and Iranians are cousins, both being “Aryans” who originated somewhere in Transcaucasia.
This similarity points to Hinduism’s foreign origins in India.

The following cites similarities between Persian and Vedic religions. It also has a list of common gods:


I don’t think there were Hindus living between IVC people in the West and Buddha in the East. What we call “Hinduism” today did not exist at the time of IVC people. The ancestors of present day Hindus of N. India (and Pakistanis from Punjab and Sindh) were white people. They looked different from current population of N. India, E. Pakistan, and Iran. And these white people practiced a similar religion. This is why the names of their gods are so similar.

IVC people, on the other hand, were black people. Their religious philosophy (yoga, karma, reincarnation, etc.) was completely different from white people (who brought Vedic/Iranian religion). There were no Hindus/Buddhists/Jains/etc. at the time of IVC’s peak.
But then the IV civilization of black people (pretty much like Tamil, but not exactly Tamil) started to decay for various reasons. White people started arriving in the lands of IVC. They imposed their own Vedic/Iranian religion, traditions, and culture on IVC people. Vedic/ Iranian people were fighters, while IVC people were very pacifist. Thus IVC people were completely dominated by Vedic people, and great Indus Valley Civilization was thus lost.

So where did black IVC people go? And where are white Vedic people? We need to look at ourselves, Hindu or Muslim. We are all different shades of brown, which results in a mix of white and black. ding ding.
Take a look at black population of West Africa and black population of States. We will realize that US blacks are not exactly black anymore. While they are called blacks, they are more likely to be brown in complexion (with African countenance nonetheless). This brown complexion is the result of years of mixing of white and black people in America.

The same thing might have happened in N. India/E. Pakistan. White Vedic people, while completely dominating black IVC people, eventually mixed with them after living side-by-side with them for hundreds of years. Thus resulting in present-day “brown” population of N. India/ E. Pak.
This mixed population of white and black people continued to adhere to dominant Vedic religion of white-half of their ancestors. But this Vedic religion was influenced by black-half of IVC religion as well. Thus it absorbed some of IVC philosophies, and ended up as present-day religion often referred to as “Hinduism”.

But Buddha, probably himself a brown mix, rejected this Vedic/ Iranian religion of white-half of his ancestors, and instead adhered to original IVC religion of black-half of his ancestors.

WHERE DID IVC PEOPLE GO?

They didn’t go anywhere. They are in us. They are black-half of our black-and-white ancestors.
I know it is a strange idea.

But think about it. Hindus give so much importance to Sanskrit (a “white” Vedic/Iranian language). And yet Sanskrit NEVER has been a lingua franca of any part of India. Reason is that the mixed (Vedic+IVC) Hindus accepted Sanskrit as their religious language, but were more at ease speaking the IVC languages, which were loosely called “Prakrits”. These IVC languages transformed later into present-day Hindi, Urdu, Punjabi, Sindhi, and Gujrati. Since all these languages have common ancestor (IVC), therefore their grammars are remarkably similar.

It’s like Muslims of Pakistan giving importance to Arabic, but continue to use their mother-tongues. There are many Pakistanis who do speak Arabic, but Arabic is never going to be Pakistan’s lingua franca.
Similarly while speaking Sanskrit was a dream for Hindus, they were more at ease speaking Prakrits.


Also consider that many artifacts found from IVC digs show stuff that is still used in N. India/ E. Pak.
For example, the ox-cart. http://www.andaman.org/BOOK/F1-IndusCivilization/Harappa-oxcart.jpg
the cot or “charpaii” (I can’t find its picture from Mohenjodaro right now).

Also consider that IVC people had a very advanced weight measurement system … down to a few grams. Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia “These chert weights were in a perfect ratio of 4:2:1…”
It would be a surprise to indicate that our present-day culture also is very rich in weight measurements … down to a few grams. sayr, mun, pau, tola, chhatank
Indian units of measurement - Wikipedia


This examples indicate continuation of BOTH Indus Valley Civilization of black people and Vedic civilization of white people, in present-day Urdu/Hindi/Punjabi/Sindhi/Gujrati speaking areas.

Re: Buddha's religion is fundamentally a religion of Indus Valley Civilization

I know most people will call these thoughts radical. But they make complete sense to me. And I don't see any other explanation.