Brelvi and Deobandi fiqh (Do we need them?)

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Brelvi and Deobandi fiqh (Do we need them?)

Jee jee , ap sahi keh rahai hain. Mera bhee yeahi kahayal hai

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Re: Brelvi and Deobandi fiqh (Do we need them?)

tlk ur right with ur views however, if one has lack of knowledge then no point me discussing this further

Secondly, i wana ak hareem what ur aqeeda is on the 4 points tlk mentioned.. And i ll tell u roght here if ur brelvi or debandi inclined.

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Re: Brelvi and Deobandi fiqh (Do we need them?)

Well, I don't think those four points are adequately defined in the first place.
People may not be on the same page.

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Re: Brelvi and Deobandi fiqh (Do we need them?)

My purpose was not to go into any details, but those 4 points are the fundamental difference. Adequate definition is not the scope of this thread.

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Re: Brelvi and Deobandi fiqh (Do we need them?)

Not defining those words is a big issue. Otherwise people will reply based on their own understanding, and others will abuse and ridicule them based on theirs.

To me Deobandi and Barelvi does not matter as much as how people interpret ahadith, and how tolerant they are of people who disagree.
This is the root cause of problems we face in our society in Pakistan.

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Re: Brelvi and Deobandi fiqh (Do we need them?)

My post was as impartial as it could be. By looking at my post, you cannot tell whose side I am on. And that was the goal. No one can go into details without being partial.

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Re: Brelvi and Deobandi fiqh (Do we need them?)

ok.

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Re: Brelvi and Deobandi fiqh (Do we need them?)

[note]Stay on topic guys[/note]

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For example, some deobandis don't allow khatam/milad but some do.

My understanding is similar to that of khoji's, only I wouldn't keep a chair for the Prophet(SAW) to sit down as I believe he(SAW) doesn't need a physical object to sit down. But there might be other reasons for keeping the chair there, may be Brelvis do this out of respect for the Prophet(SAW), which is fine.

About Prophet being Noori or Khaaki, he(SAW) was son of Adam(AS) and a human like us but he was very special and he was the best of all. He was noor(light) in a metaphorical way.

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That's somewhat true because deobandis find that mawlids are being used as a platform to promote bad practices. Just have to look in Pakistan/India, so many things going on against sharia in these gatherings. So, it's best as our scholars point out to stay away from these gatherings altogether/ stay away from a thing which would lead one to bidah. To me it makes sense...
on the other hand, there are many mawlids that happen without the need of much bollywood influence. Just look at Shaykh Hamza Yusuf and his school. =)
I find that barelvis are more lax on these issues.. whereas deobandis are stricter.

In a metaphorical way? The barelvis say he's present at the gatherings, not metaphorically though. And about the chair, some do believe he sits on the chair..... ;(

One more issue I have with barelvis is that they promote tawassul too much.... which leads people to shirk often (just look in subcontinent) hate to say this but they lead to a path that shias have taken.. That and other reasons why barelvis are looked upon badly. Fine, have love for awliya but don't go overboard. Deobandis on the other hand keep strict position on this. You won't hear any deobandi saying "ya rasullullah" in every dua of his nor any gathering.

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Re: Brelvi and Deobandi fiqh (Do we need them?)

cricket:

[quote]
That's somewhat true because deobandis find that mawlids are being used as a platform to promote bad practices.
[/quote]

Then you should strive to eliminate the "bad practices" instead of scrapping the whole milads.
I think you are only using this as an excuse to stop milads. Because I have not seen any deobandi being against the concept of violence even though there are many groups among deobandis who do condone killing of innocent people if they disagree.

[quote]
The barelvis say he's present at the gatherings, not metaphorically though.
[/quote]

But not everyone thinks that way. How can you use opinions of some to condemn a community in general?

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Re: Brelvi and Deobandi fiqh (Do we need them?)

I have problem deobandis bringing the Prophet down to our level by saying "Rasool ham jesa".

cricketp:

[quote]
One more issue I have with barelvis is that they promote tawassul too much....

[/quote]

I don't know what you mean by 'shirk' but the concept of tawassul is not against Islam in anyway.

[quote]
That and other reasons why barelvis are looked upon badly.
[/quote]

Unfortunately, such "bad looks" lead to violence and fasaad in the name of Islam.

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I agree.

I gave the metaphore example regarding the "noor" only.

His(SAW) presence in dhikr gatherings is not metaphorical, it's the same feeling as seeing him in the dream but with open eyes(at least that's how I understood it) and only pious people can see him and talk to him(SAW) this way.

I agree that some brelvis go overboard but I'm not in a position to judge them because i don't know their intentions.

Also, there's nothing wrong in saying "Ya Rasul Allah" and it'd be a shame not hearing this in a deobandi gathering.

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Re: Brelvi and Deobandi fiqh (Do we need them?)

Peace

I was bought up going to a Deobandi masjid and now I attend gatherings that are mainly of Barelvi members. I believe there are some things that need to be clarified:

a) Barelvi's say some things against Deobandi's that are not true and Deobandi's say some things against Barelvi's that are not true.

b) There are two important factors regarding an act. The physical appearance and the intention.

c) Deobandis inclined more literally get confused with the love Barelvis show likewise Barelvis get confused about the strictness the Deobandis view the Attributes of Allah.

d) Barelvis think Deobandis and Wahabis are the same or similar. However according to the 'aqeedah both Barelvis and Deobandis are in fact Maturidi based, whereas Wahabis are Athari based. Also, Wahabis follow the madhab of Ahmad bin Hanbal (RA) whereas both Barelvis and Deobandis follow the madhab of Abu Hanifah (RA). So Barelvis and Deobandis are or should be closer to each other. I guess it has something to do with local rivalry like football teams.

e) The chair - it does not exist in the Barelvi gatherings that I attend !!!

f) Deobandis do love Muhammad (SAW) and they never do toheen, it only appears that way to the Barelvis.

Huqqooq Al 'ibad - What are the rights of Muhammad (SAW) over us and how do we view his existence?

In my humble journey I have found that Deobandis tend to have more knowledge regarding hadith and hence trump the average Barelvi causing people to leave esoteric and custom/tradition based activity. In fact many customs are indeed based on sahih traditions but it requires more depth to find them, the poor Barelvis are so duped in their fellowship of their leaders they often fail to ask the source of the information they are given. They view it as a form of disrespect, but this way they cannot defend themselves either. Coming from a Deobandi background has helped me take what I am given from the Barelvis and instead of asking around I listen and then check things up for myself. I have found many things that I first felt were unacceptable are based on coherent traditions - such as khatams/dhikrs/mawlids.

Also to finish I have sat with both learned Deobandis and learned Barelvis and not only do they call each other brothers ... they even pray together !!! When I say learned I mean 'alims - you know mawlvis ... but the crowds outshine their leaders on both sides of the fence. LOL

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Thats such a lie, deobandis do not bring Prophet pbuh down astaghfirullah, they love and adore him.

You mena violence like "Izlamic" republic of iran unleashes on bahais.

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The deobandis who oppose milads in the subcontinent context, you know as well as I that in the subcontinent that the laymen(me and you) put the tariqa first before sharia, not the other way around. Which leads to bad practices. It’s well known that one should avoid something which would lead to something bad.. Deobandis do celebrate mawlid, it may not be on the 12th of Rabi ul awwal, it can be any day of the week all throughout the year.

Do check what Mufti Taqi Usmani sahab and other deobandi ulema have to say in regards to mawlid:
http://www.albalagh.net/qa/milad_qa.shtml
http://www.albalagh.net/qa/milad_qa2.shtml

[quote="“khoji, post:54, topic:220621"”]

I don’t know what you mean by ‘shirk’ but the **concept of tawassul is not against Islam in anyway.

**
[/quote]

That’s what I said too, all I said was it shouldn’t be promoted as much (make sense?) You can clearly see the signs of shirk especially in the subcontinent with all these mazaars.. the laymen are told not to make dua directly but still we do not know much hence we carry on our bad practices (add the influence of hindu traditions and you got a party)..
One example, some believe it’s ok to pray fajr after sunrise up until noon, which we all know is wrong, you’d be surprised how many still hold onto this belief. So, just like that, people give more importance to tawassul which lead to shirk. IMO both deobandi and barelvi ulema have emphasized on this but the laymen on both sides are too caught up with their egos to understand this simple concept. *

Anyway, I agree with psyah bro.
Both Deobandi and Barelvi ulema should be respected and we laymen shouldn’t be calling each other kafir based on some differences. The Ulema have much respect for each other, who are we do decide anything?

Shaykh Gibril Haddad sums it up :k: :

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DD:

[quote]
Thats such a lie, deobandis do not bring Prophet pbuh down astaghfirullah
[/quote]

A matter of perception. Isn't it?

Same goes here:
cricketp:

[quote]
mawlids are being used as a platform to promote bad practices.
[/quote]

Above is also a matter of perception.
And that is the point. **People should not pass sweeping judgement **about others when discussing.

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You do not see them?

So we should just turn a blind eye to it all and let the masses celebrate however they like even if they turn their backs to sharia and/or border shirk?

Barelvi ulema need to do more to tackle the disease, IMO...

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Re: Brelvi and Deobandi fiqh (Do we need them?)

i was born into a regular barelvi setting, but recently ive come to the perception that deoband wins by a mile. although the on paper differences mentioned in this thread appear to be minor

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I can also google-search many opinions from various other ulema about what is the correct way of performing milad in their opinion.
I would rather not talk about HOW TO PERFORM THE CORRECT MILAD MEHFIL. Do whatever you please. This is not the thread to justify your beliefs over others.

Like I said, it is just your perception which others may not agree with. This is similar to others saying that deobandis disrespect the Prophet and bring him down to our level. But when I said that I got a very harsh reaction from shardmanny. And it is understandable. However, what you guys need to realize is that just like you get upset when someone gives you their piece of mind, similarly others get offended by your sweeping shouts of "kafir" and "mushrik" about others. In fact these calls are a lot more offensive than what others call you.

And this is why I was saying that you should not be judgmental about others.

[quote]
So we should just turn a blind eye to it all
[/quote]

Do whatever you want but don't resort to violence.
It is this "holier-than-thou" attitude which results in violence and intimidation by deobandis towards other Muslims. This is why Taliban called their war against other Afghan Muslims a "jihad". As if they were fighting non-Muslims.

That's the problem.