Re: Breaking news: Shooting at Illinois campus
The point is that criminals still get the guns while the good guys are left to suffer the wrath of the law...
Re: Breaking news: Shooting at Illinois campus
That's wishful thinking, but i don't think its gonna happen anytime soon, and what if a nerd becomes frustrated one day and bring out his bazooka because guess what? He was fit for it before. Now suddenly ur lookin at more casualties than before.
Re: Breaking news: Shooting at Illinois campus
AE,
Simple google search reveals otherwise:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=21902
Re: Breaking news: Shooting at Illinois campus
The point is that criminals still get the guns while the good guys are left to suffer the wrath of the law...
no one is saying make getting arms impossible but have dstricter background checks and emotional/mental evaluations.
whackjob people can get the weapons illegally but it will be harder.
as it stands gun crime in countries with tighter gun control laws is significantly less. do the criminals in those countries not know about guns? or they are unable to get their hands on them as easily?
Re: Breaking news: Shooting at Illinois campus
And this says the opposite
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990CE4DE1330F936A25750C0A963958260
Another simple google search!
Re: Breaking news: Shooting at Illinois campus
I think AE was talking about gun related crime not all violent crime.
Re: Breaking news: Shooting at Illinois campus
^ yep
Re: Breaking news: Shooting at Illinois campus
Whether gun laws are made stricter or not, the one who needs a gun will find a way (as long as there is some source in the society) to get it. Why can't we totally abandon arms? If US constitution allows it then change it, simple.
Even if good guys had guns, would they be roaming around with guns all the time? I doubt it. What is needed for such places is security, control the entry points (like Karachi :D) etc.
Re: Breaking news: Shooting at Illinois campus
I think AE was talking about gun related crime not all violent crime.
Rates Down Under increase despite strict gun-control measures
Thats what the sub-heading says...
Re: Breaking news: Shooting at Illinois campus
Rates Down Under increase despite strict gun-control measures
Thats what the sub-heading says...
rates of what? violent crime, or gun related crime.
defintion of a violent crime could be punches thrown.
nowhere does that article say that gun related crime increased after stricter gun laws.
Re: Breaking news: Shooting at Illinois campus
It mentions GUNS, it does **not **mention PUNCHES thrown, stop putting your own spin on it. You are saying as if crimes committed with guns are not violent.
Same article links to another article:
Crime up Down Under
Since Australia’s gun ban, armed robberies increase 45%
Private ownership of guns is a must if you are going to stop criminals and random stupid people who decide one day to shoot up a collage campus or library or high school.
http://www.nrapublications.org/armed%20citizen/Index.asp
Put your self in this situation, your kids and then think. Would you want them to hide behind chairs and doors and what not when they are being shot at by some depressed retard or would you then wish that they had a gun to protect themselves and others around them?
A criminal will never go to the courthouse to get license for the gun, only good guy would, those who are law abiding citizens and want a gun so they can protect themselves and their families.
Re: Breaking news: Shooting at Illinois campus
fine this article is fine but show me in your previous article where it says that gun related crime increased. it did not, and I had to go by what was written in that article.
now as far as gun related crime goes, what percentage is committed by legally versus illegally obtained weapons, especially if we take out the inter gang warfare stuff.
are all gun crimes committed by using illegally obtained weapons? were columbine weapons legal or illegal? wha about the VA tech shooter? or the Dc area shooter? i dunn recall I am asking
PS: armed robberies can be armed with guns or armed with knives.
Re: Breaking news: Shooting at Illinois campus
and here are some other stats
Statistics: Gun Violence in Our Communities
Children and Gun Violence
{b}In a single year, 3,012 children and teens were killed by gunfire in the United States, according to the latest national data released in 2002. That is one child every three hours; eight children every day; and more than 50 children every week**. And every year, at least 4 to 5 times as many kids and teens suffer from non-fatal firearm injuries. (Children’s Defense Fund and National Center for Health Statistics)
America and Gun Violence
American children are more at risk from firearms than the children of any other industrialized nation. In one year, **firearms killed no children in Japan, 19 in Great Britain, 57 in Germany, 109 in France, 153 in Canada, and 5,285 in the United States. **(Centers for Disease Control)
Guns in the Wrong Hands
Faulty records enable terrorists, illegal aliens and criminals to purchase guns. **Over a two and a half-year period, at least 9,976 convicted felons and other illegal buyers in 46 states obtained guns **because of inadequate records. (Broken Records, Americans for Gun Safety Foundation)
School Safety
Between 1994 and 1999, there were 220 school associated violent events resulting in 253 deaths - - 74.5% of these involved firearms. Handguns caused almost 60% of these deaths. (Journal of American Medical Association, December 2001)
In 1998-99 academic year, 3,523 students were expelled for bringing a firearm to school. This is a decrease from the 5,724 students expelled in 1996-97 for bringing a firearm to school. (U.S. Department of Education, October 2000)
Nearly 8% of adolescents in urban junior and senior high schools miss at least one day of school each month because they are afraid to attend. (National Mental Health & Education Center for Children & Families, National Association of School Psychologists 1998)
The National School Boards Association estimates that more than 135,000 guns are brought into U.S. schools each day. (NSBA, 1993)
Children and Gun Violence
America is losing too many children to gun violence. Between 1979 and 2001, gunfire killed 90,000 children and teens in America. (Children’s Defense Fund and National Center for Health Statistics)
**In one year, more children and teens died from gunfire than from cancer, pneumonia, influenza, asthma, and HIV/AIDS combined. (Children’s Defense Fund) **
**The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. **(Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)
America and Gun Violence
Every day, more than 80 Americans die from gun violence. (Coalition to Stop Gun Violence)
**The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. **(Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)
**American kids are 16 times more likely to be murdered with a gun, 11 times more likely to commit suicide with a gun, and nine times more likely to die from a firearm accident than children in 25 other industrialized countries combined. **(Centers for Disease Control)
Guns in the Wrong Hands
Americans for Gun Safety produced a 2003 report that reveals that 20 of the nation’s 22 national gun laws are not enforced. According to U.S. Department of Justice data (FY 2000-2002), only 2% of federal gun crimes were actually prosecuted. Eighty-five percent of cases prosecuted relate to street criminals in possession of firearms. Ignored are laws intended to punish illegal gun trafficking, firearm theft, corrupt gun dealers, lying on a criminal background check form, obliterating firearm serial numbers, selling guns to minors and possessing a gun in a school zone. To access The Enforcement Gap: Federal Gun Laws Ignored, visit http://w3.agsfoundation.com/. For a state-by-state chart of gun crimes (FY 2000-2002), click here.
Studies show that **1 percent of gun stores sell the weapons traced to 57 percent of gun crimes. **According to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF), the dealer that armed the DC area sniper is among this small group of problem gun dealers that “supply the suppliers” who funnel guns to the nation’s criminals. (Between 1997 and 2001, guns sold by this dealer were involved in 52 crimes, including homicides, kidnappings and assaults. Still open today, it also can’t account for 238 guns or say whether they were stolen, lost or sold, or if their buyers underwent felony-background checks.) As a result, these few gun dealers have a vastly disproportionate impact on public safety. The ATF can recognize such dealers based on: (1) guns stolen from inventory; (2) missing federal sales records, needed by police to solve crimes; (3) having 10 weapons a year traced to crimes; (4) frequently selling multiple guns to individual buyers; and (5) short times between gun sales and their involvement in crimes. Yet ATF enforcement is weak due to a lack of Congressional support and resources. For more details, click here.
Terrorists have purchased firearms at gun shows, where unlicensed sellers are not currently required to conduct background checks or to ask for identification. According to the Middle East Intelligence Report, for example, a Hezbollah member was arrested in November 2000, after a nine-month investigation by the FBI’s counter-terrorism unit. Ali Boumelhem was later convicted on seven counts of weapons charges and conspiracy to ship weapons and ammunition to Lebanon. Federal agents had observed Boumelhem, a resident of Detroit and Beirut, travel to Michigan gun shows and buy gun parts and ammunition for shipment overseas. Boumelhem was prohibited from legally purchasing guns as gun stores because he was a convicted felon. Additional cases involve a Pakistani national with an expired (1988) student visa; a Lebanese native and Hamas member with numerous felony convictions; and a supporter of the Irish Republican Army. (USA Today, Wednesday, November 28, 2001 Americans for Gun Safety)
According to Americans for Gun Safety (December 2002), gun theft is most likely in states without laws requiring safe storage of firearms in the home and where there are large numbers of gun owners and relatively high crime rates. Based on FBI data, **nearly 1.7 million guns have been reported stolen in the past ten years, and only 40% of those were recovered. The missing guns, over 80% of which are taken from homes or cars, most likely fuel the black market for criminals. **NEA, AGS and the National Rifle Association advocate for safe storage. To access “Stolen Guns: Arming the Enemy” visit www.agsfoundation.com.
Re: Breaking news: Shooting at Illinois campus
That is a different issue... that is issue of those who own the gun keeping it in a safe place from kids. If you put it around your home, in your nightstand, etc. of course your kids will get to it and shoot someone.
Crime committed with guns is not same as people or kids shooting others because proper safety measures were not taken!
If you were faced with this situation where someone opens a fire, would you then want a gun or not? Would you not want a gun so you can defend your self?
Since when did we start turning into little asinine wimps that we don't want to own guns, we don't want to protect ourselves with guns yet criminals and thugs out there are shooting up public places with handguns and ak-47s and semi automatic weapons?
Do we really want to tell our kids that hey its not okay to defend your self? Hey you don't have to own a firearm because you might shoot someone? While the scum of this society continues to kill and mame others, we on the other hand have our fears that stop us from protecting ourselves, defending our homes and places we visit.
Why do we want to make it HARDER for ourselves to own a gun but would not even consider using it in a situation that deems it necessary?
Re: Breaking news: Shooting at Illinois campus
Jaan leva
so when the guns used in va tech and columbine were ontaned legally then what?
so someone blasts in a room starts shooting, and someone shoots him, big deal he was gonna shoot himself anyways.
so tell me how does everyone carrying a gun eliminate Va tech or NIU or columbine type shootings?
I am listening
Re: Breaking news: Shooting at Illinois campus
lets contextualize this properly. Australia does not have incidents every so often in high school where some nut gets his hands on a gun and goes to town. America does. this discussion is not about armed robbery, so an increase or decrease in armed robbery as a result of gun control is pretty much irrelevant.
anti-social behaviour in teens is not a US specific thing though. in UK its all about knives, kids stabbing each other. Still, not as bad as guns I'd say, harder to do the indiscriminate killing sprees.
it should be harder for these kids to get guns. somewhere either a kid is buying a gun he shouldnt be able to, or an idiot parent is.
Re: Breaking news: Shooting at Illinois campus
Jaan Leva....
u said "only law abiding citizens would be able to get a gun" ..
it's these very same law abiding citizens that end up purchasing a gun and then later using it on someone in the heat of the moment.
Re: Breaking news: Shooting at Illinois campus
Jaan leva
so when the guns used in va tech and columbine were ontaned legally then what? so someone blasts in a room starts shooting, and someone shoots him, big deal he was gonna shoot himself anyways.
so tell me how does everyone carrying a gun eliminate Va tech or NIU or columbine type shootings?
I am listening
None of the people involved in those incidents had guns... if someone did, less people would have died.
The link i posted above to an article which is from 2000/2001:
Though lawmakers responsible for passing the ban promised a safer country, the nation's crime statistics tell a different story:
* Countrywide, homicides are up 3.2 percent;
* Assaults are up 8.6 percent;
* Amazingly, armed robberies have climbed nearly 45 percent;
* In the Australian state of Victoria, gun homicides have climbed 300 percent;
* In the 25 years before the gun bans, crime in Australia had been dropping steadily;
* There has been a reported "dramatic increase" in home burglaries and assaults on the elderly.
Tough gun laws only help the criminals... when you prevent good citizens from acquiring weapons for their protection, you give criminals a greenlight to invade their homes, their public places, etc. Because criminals know no soul in that home or place would have a gun.
You neve answered my question:
If you were faced with this situation, would you want a gun or would you be willing to get shot at and possibly get killed?
Re: Breaking news: Shooting at Illinois campus
Jaan Leva....
u said "only law abiding citizens would be able to get a gun" ..
it's these very same law abiding citizens that end up purchasing a gun and then later using it on someone in the heat of the moment.
AFAIK, ruls to get a license to own a firearm are very strict, you have to go through some tough process to get one, if you do.
But the point here is that in such a case many people will have guns. Those who get license but intend to shoot others and also those who get a gun to protect themselves... those who want to kill WILL get a gun no matter what, tough law or not.
Re: Breaking news: Shooting at Illinois campus
I would not like nutjobs to get guns in their hands in the first place.
note I said gun control, i did not say No guns, there is a huge difference. lets not run to that tangent.
we are talking about this in the context of teh gun crimes on campuses. which were commited using legally obtained guns.
so there is an issue with what type of people get guns.
you think if gun control laws were even more lax these morons would decide not to go shoot people, or if they were going with a death wish that the fact that others may ahve guns would have stopped it.