Originally posted in Such a bright face
And
Please comment … 
Nothing to comment…FreeMind is a commie.
At least he has a Free Mind and can think outside the box.
I agree with him in essence. But really it doesn't matter. Just make sure that you don't bog the kids down and don't kill their curiosity or close their minds.
I was a devout 'Sunni Muslim'. Observed all 'religious' practices and was fully into the gyaarvhee, baarvheen etc scene at the local masjid. Such was the influence from my family and country.
Allah gave me the opportunity to grow and be able to study and educate myself and by keeping an open mind, one by one, I broke all shackles of superstition and am still learning.
Many non-Muslim people accept Islam after being born and brought up in very religious environments. As long as the religious teachings are based on "amar-bil-maroof-nahee-anil-munkir" it's all good.
Remember ALL religions lead to the true religion Islam.. submission to Allah. sooner or later, no matter what religion you are.. you have a chance to accept Allah as the ONLY one worthy of worship and you break all idols you've set up.
[This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited November 20, 2001).]
Who decides what is considered brain washing & what is not?
.
'Brainwashing' is anything which is forced on children without any rationale. u tell me what is the rationale of forcibly covering small girls?
OK, let me tell u. In pakistan, it is not unusual that sexual exploitation of children take place in madrassas. These priests/moulvis r 'seduced' by young children (boys/girls), and that is why they ask ppl to cover even small children.
I have seen some educated and well to do muslim families in USA who bring their 6-7 years old daughters to mosques, all covered up like Afghan woman. This is the tragedy of muslims in this period. Despite being educated, they remain ignorant and backward.
[quote]
Originally posted by FreeMind:
*OK, let me tell u. In pakistan, it is not unusual that sexual exploitation of children take place in madrassas. These priests/moulvis r 'seduced' by young children (boys/girls), and that is why they ask ppl to cover even small children.
*
[/quote]
damn evil children, seducing mullahs and stuff. man what kind of HO kids go and seduce people.
I believe there is either a serious lapse in your composition or your knowledge. Which one is it?
LOL! Fraudia… and must you pick on others’ lack of grip on english grammar?
Anyway, coming back to the topic, parents are supposed to teach children manners. Will we also call it brain-washing? Parents are supposed to teach children about thir values and culture. I suppose that is considered brain-washing as well. Parents teach the kids about religion. Brain-washing too.
And then we are surprised that the kids ditched their parents and went off to live with their partner at the age of 18, and are reduced to sending cards on Mother’s Day and Father’s Day
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/redface.gif
Well Done!
Brainwashing thing/allegation on parents is too far fetched. Parents are supposed to guide their children in the rightest possible way and thats what they do.
But the problem arises when a child who has been living in extremely religious environment, rebels against all the restrictions that parents might have imposed on him/her. I have seen many such cases, (some of my friends have went though this experience) where such children go from one extreme to the other and become too much averse to religious obligations. So, I think a balance needs to be maintained.
[quote]
I have seen some educated and well to do muslim families in USA who bring their 6-7 years old daughters to mosques, all covered up like Afghan woman. This is the tragedy of muslims in this period. Despite being educated, they remain ignorant and backward.
[/quote]
Would making them come to a mosque be considered brain washing too?! :)
Cos as per your logic, the children can't make decisions on their own, so influencing them with anything regardless of its rigid hijab or cross hanging around their neck, should be wrong!
'Brainwashing' is anything which is forced on children without any rationale.<<
So when my kid brother refuses to learn maths and he's 'forced' to do his homework, its considered brainwashing?
Waise how do you define rationale, backwardness as compared to forwardness (?)?
When was the last time you guys objected to young girls bikinis? Or should one object to that at all?
Would making them come to a mosque be considered brain washing too?! :)<<
AJ aap samjhe nahiN, you're not supposed to 'make' kids do anything, you should show them your local masjid once and let them decide whether they want to go there or not on their own. Similarly you should show them the toothbrush and let them decide how they'd like to use it. Itni asaan baat apke pale nahiN paRti tsk tsk.
[quote]
Originally posted by Scratch:
Parents are supposed to guide their children in the rightest possible way and thats what they do.
[/quote]
Who decides what is the "rightest possible way"?
The parents decide.
Its they who are responsible for the welfare of their children after all.
Maybe that seems a little bit lax, but hasn't society determined that adults are generally for the most part responsible, conscientious individuals capable of rational thought, thus granting them that freedom or burden of responsibility.
I liked the point Saba brought up, i.e. how can you label one teaching as extreme and accept the other. You have to be consistent. And it may be that some people have different viewpoints on matters of religion, but its natural for their children to be exposed to those viewpoints. Whether those children will choose to accept or reject those values as they grow older is up to them, a parent's duty is only to instruct their children in a way so as to give them the means to pursue the best way of life, and truly parents only want the best for their children.
I don't think brainwashing is a concept that fits into that relationship at all.
I wonder if we can blame Taliban for the way they were brought up. Even though Parents have a lot to do with the way kids grow up to be, other influences of the society make as much an impression on growing up (brainwashing, etc.). Raising a civil society is not a piece of cake as many appear to believe that to be. It takes a Village (borrowing Hillary Clinton’s words) to raise a child that grows up to be a responsible adult.
The only way to kill the curiosity of a young child (other than just killing him) is to impose things without explaining. Parents setting the rules is only beneficial when they explain the rationale behind them. Bedtime at 8:30 is because your body needs at least 8 hours of solid night sleep to be fully prepared for tomorrow's class.
yes indeed children do get brain washed some times delibrately other times just by listening to their parents views
i remember some years ago i was watching this talk show by donahue and the topic was about racism and there was a 3 year old white boy who was repeatedly saying i hate niggers , i hate niggers but when phill donahue the host of the show asked the kid to show his how a nigger looked like or can he identify any nigger in the crowd ?the child drew blank .the reason was that the 3 year old kid did not know how a nigger looked like he was just repeating the words his parents spoke. so it was very sad
besides i belive there are only 2 in 10 people in this world who have the reasoning power or the urge to know which religion is right or wrong almost 99% of the people practice the religion simply because they are born in that religion.and have been taught not to question the holy cow.
[This message has been edited by kabir (edited November 21, 2001).]
First lets us decide what is brain washing ans what is educating.
My views:
Education is Imparting facts and teaching how to think independently and logically.
Brain washing is imparting beliefs that are not based on facts.
What do you guys think?
.
[quote]
Originally posted by Tanhaa:
**First lets us decide what is brain washing ans what is educating.
My views:
Education is Imparting facts and teaching how to think independently and logically.
Brain washing is imparting beliefs that are not based on facts.
What do you guys think?**
[/quote]
Not exactly, brainwashing would be imparting facts which are twisted or not told in entirety. A fact could be misunderstood intentionally or accidentally as well.
U might also, brainwashing is limiting exposure until the person has completely adapted to the ideology that surrounds him/her. In such cases the person is very averse to changes and we say the he's/she/s been brainwashed.
Reasoning without logic is what leads to misuse of religion and other things. There is nothing wrong with imposing unless you force things without reason.
How would you like, say your child born in your muslim family starts getting influnced by christianity because some of his friends parents are influencing him better than you are. Now in that case to impose, would be say your not going to see him anymore, could work with a child (but not the best way, could be effective for some time, but not forever). It would be better if you reasoned him, explained things ... at his level and best of all counter the convincing point in his mind ... then a little imposition wouldnt turn the child against you.
If you dont teach your children from childhood, they will give you a hell of a lot of trouble when they grow up and you try to explain or impose things on them, because then they have a life to think about and have reached some stage of maturity and developed habbits they may not want to give up.
Its just like building anything, the foundation and infrastructure should be strong. Teaching children about there religion is not brainwashing or extremism.
What would you say about chirsitian kids going trick or treating, they dont have a clue what Halloween means, they are just doing for the fun of it .... now isnt that brainwashing, infact worse, they are beingf bribed or lured into a tradition without any understanding.
As far as a truly religious or understanding person is concerned, when he goes to the depth he will realise where his religion falls short .... which is why people convert to Islam .... they are convinced through its reasoning. Any cases you hear about muslims leaving their religion is never based on convincing ideology of the other religion, its mostly about abused rights under that religion .... this is a vice that we should try to root out because we can see whened misused how it can harm us.
Its our Wits that make us MEN .... 'Braveheart'
What is brain-washing ?
This is:
Subject:"Ahmed has a Sword......"
By Keith B. Richburg
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday, November 19, 2001; Page A14
KABUL, Afghanistan -- The textbook was meant for 6-year-olds, to teach first-graders the Pashto language of Afghanistan's dominant
ethnic group. But like many things under Taliban rule, the book's messages were unmistakably political.
Page four of the textbook teaches the word for sword, as in "Ahmed has a sword. He performs jihad with his sword."
The word on the next page is weapon. "My uncle has a weapon. He performs jihad with his weapon."
"Jihad is an obligation for everyone," the book says on page seven. "Growing a beard is mandatory. My father has a beard."
After gaining control of most of Afghanistan in 1996, the Taliban moved swiftly to impose its rigid brand of Islam -- banning music and television, forcing men to grow beards, and removing women from schools and the workplace. It also quietly began a longer-term program to indoctrinate a new generation of Afghan boys with its
uncompromising view of Islam and the world.
It is a world of black and white, with no gray areas. It is a world of constant struggle, or jihad -- holy war -- against invaders and infidels.
"When the infidels invade Muslim countries, jihad is an obligation on every Muslim," says one third-grade language rimer.
"Anyone who wants to do the will of God should start jihad under the flag of Islam against the infidels."
While girls over 8 years old were not allowed to attend school under the Taliban, many boys were also left without classrooms because most of the teachers were women, who were prohibited from working. Those boys who did continue in school found the course work dramatically changed. Seven periods a day were devoted to Islamic teaching, with
only one class a week for each of the other subjects, such as science and history.
Even topics not remotely political or religious contained subtle messages about war and jihad. In one arithmetic textbook, for example, children are taught to count from simple drawings -- two knives, three anti-tank mines.
"They turned the schools into madrassas for the training of Taliban," said Nadir Exeer, a Kabul cardiologist. "They changed all the
scientific and social subjects into Islamic teaching. It's a good thing to teach Islamic materials. But our society does not just need mullahs -- it needs scientists, engineers, doctors, poets."
"Instead of raising human beings, they wanted to raise roosters for cockfighting," said Exeer, who has four children.
Amir Uddin, a teacher at a small orphanage with 17 children, said that before 1996, orphans were guaranteed spots at a university and later a government job. "The Taliban introduced a new system," said
Uddin, himself an orphan. "The students took Islamic studies for six years, then they either joined the Taliban or had to leave the orphanage."
Many here are wondering about the long-term effects of five years of Taliban education on their young children and siblings.
[quote]
Originally posted by LooksCanKill:
** Not exactly, brainwashing would be imparting facts which are twisted or not told in entirety. A fact could be misunderstood intentionally or accidentally as well.
U might also, brainwashing is limiting exposure until the person has completely adapted to the ideology that surrounds him/her. In such cases the person is very averse to changes and we say the he's/she/s been brainwashed.
Reasoning without logic is what leads to misuse of religion and other things. There is nothing wrong with imposing unless you force things without reason.
How would you like, say your child born in your muslim family starts getting influnced by christianity because some of his friends parents are influencing him better than you are. Now in that case to impose, would be say your not going to see him anymore, could work with a child (but not the best way, could be effective for some time, but not forever). It would be better if you reasoned him, explained things ... at his level and best of all counter the convincing point in his mind ... then a little imposition wouldnt turn the child against you.
If you dont teach your children from childhood, they will give you a hell of a lot of trouble when they grow up and you try to explain or impose things on them, because then they have a life to think about and have reached some stage of maturity and developed habbits they may not want to give up.
Its just like building anything, the foundation and infrastructure should be strong. Teaching children about there religion is not brainwashing or extremism.
What would you say about chirsitian kids going trick or treating, they dont have a clue what Halloween means, they are just doing for the fun of it .... now isnt that brainwashing, infact worse, they are beingf bribed or lured into a tradition without any understanding.
As far as a truly religious or understanding person is concerned, when he goes to the depth he will realise where his religion falls short .... which is why people convert to Islam .... they are convinced through its reasoning. Any cases you hear about muslims leaving their religion is never based on convincing ideology of the other religion, its mostly about abused rights under that religion .... this is a vice that we should try to root out because we can see whened misused how it can harm us.
**
[/quote]
u r confusing two things here:
Teaching children the logic of ethics based on 'dont do things to others which u dont want others to do to u'. This is foundation, which u r referring to.
All other beliefs which do not have any reason, but they r just belived in because they r in holy book.
In point 1, if ur child is setaling, u can use all sort of ways to convince him otherwise. u can lock him up, u can deny him all priveleges, ...
In point 2, u owe it to him that he knows about other beliefs too. He also must know about the different status of Hussain, David, and Jesus in other sects and religions.
Now come to scarf. Covering of women has a definite reason in islam. Covering of gaze for men also has a definite reason. This comes under point 1. If a girl has not reached puberty u can not ask her to cover herself without telling her that men r lusting after her. r they?
Similarly, if a boy has not reached puberty, u can not ask him not to look at female relatives and friends because that might seduce them!
Even after puberty, if a girl decides to observe the social norms (which may be different in different societies), and not observe strict 'purdah', u have to respect her wishes. If she lives in USA, and decides to wear skirt and blouse, u better leave USA before asking her not to observe existing social norms.
I have seen many muslim families in USA/UK which live in a liberal society, but try to enforce a complete alien culture on their kids. Why? Why not leave the west altogether?
Again, I am saying this because a child can not conform to an alien culture while living in liberal culture. strict religious ppl destroy the personalities of their children in this way, not only in west, but also in pakistan.