Re: Book of Hadith
Maybe I should ask this first (follow the pattern):
PCG, are you a Muslim? If so, what makes you a Muslim? Why do / what makes you think it does?
Re: Book of Hadith
was Sheba a "Islamic" leader to conclude that since Sheba was a Muslim leader hence the hadith "contradicts" Quran?
Re: Book of Hadith
Keeping in mind that she is a NON Muslim when she is a queen… 
Re: Book of Hadith
Was there any Sharia implemented during that time? If so ( I suppose as Zaboor was given to the father if Sulyeman:as: - Dawood:as: ) do we have any evidence of it asking women not be leader?
What is the stand of the Sharia of Muhmmad:saw: on this instance?
Does the Quran specifically instruct us to choose a leader among women or does Quran declares men as “Qawwam” over women?
Re: Book of Hadith
PCG, you are CHERRY PICKING stuff from QURAN and Hadith books in order to support your weak argument. You cannot cherry pick and leave some of the stuff out of context....
Re: Book of Hadith
Some of you guys really need to read what the Quran says about her, before you start pulling in that she wasn’t some Islamic leader. You also need to realize that anyone who lived before the Rasul’s time is not an automatic Kaafir. There were messengers sent before the Prophet’s time too, and thus there were believers before Muhammed (SAW) was born.
I’ll respond to this part by AQ specifically. Men have been declared protectors of women. This does not mean that only men can be leaders of state. There is no logic in this, as supported by the Queen Sheba reference and Allah’s praise of her, and also evidenced by the ground reality that there are MANY successful female leaders (whether of small organizations, businesses, professions, or of a State). If Allah programmed women to be weak and too inept to be leaders, then how are women out there proving Allah wrong? So you can’t say that women can’t be leaders, because there is no biological basis for it, nor is there a specific commandment in the Quran that says women may never be leaders.
Rahi baath Sharia ki, there is a logical problem you face. You say that the words of the Quran are applicable to all time periods, and that verses can’t be applied differently in different time periods. So why does that exclude the Past? Are you actually saying that God’s laws of Right and Wrong were different pre-shariat times as opposed to the time when the Prophet walked the earth? In that case, why don’t we just say that God’s laws of Right and Wrong are different now than during the time when the Prophet walked the earth? In that case, we need not worry about the Shariat, right?
God’s law is God’s law. Its the same whether we’re talking about 500 BC or 200 AD or present. Makes no difference. Nowhere does it say that women can’t be leaders. Only in a hadith. And that hadith directly contradicts the ayahs about Queen Sheba. If God is using a female leader of State as an example for all muslims who read the Quran, then how can you say Allah disapproves of female leaders? :rolleeyes:
Re: Book of Hadith
@ PCG: “God’s law is God’s law. Its the same whether we’re talking about 500 BC or 200 AD or present.”
Do you know some nation was forbidden from catching fish on Saturdays? Just checking 
Re: Book of Hadith
and Jews were forbidden to eat the back portion of the halaal animals as well. checking again.
Re: Book of Hadith
According to Islamic beliefs, we don't know what parts of the Jewish books and Christian books have been changed. Maybe the whole fish deal and the whole back portion of halaal animals rituals are fabricated? Do you guys even know if those commandments are part of the New/Old Testament/Torah, or are they part of other texts? How do you know those texts have not been tampered with?
Laws about women are about women and they don't change. There is nothing different about a woman essentially and biologically from Eve's time to today's woman. You people really don't have any Quranic proof that women can't be leaders, and you also don't have any Quranic proof that we aren't meant to follow the example of Queen Sheba and that Queen Sheba is not meant to be an inspiration of muslims. You know why? Because the Quran clearly talks of her story, and clearly talks of her acceptance of the message, and her accepting her wrongs, and her turning over a new leaf.
There are just no other scenarios that would make us think we should not look up to Queen Sheba as a leader. It amazes me how strongly people defend pieces of writing that were written down from an oral tradition, rather directed to be written by the Prophet himself, but when a Quranic verse stares you square in the eye, we'll still argue against it.
Re: Book of Hadith
PCG: what the heck.. Those things are mentioned in QURAN itself.
sigh
Re: Book of Hadith
PCG next time u present the Queen of Saba as an example, remeber that no where in Quran has Allah put her leadership as a model....
in fact she was no longer a leader once she accepted Islam....
if Islam did not indeed disallow woman leadership, she wud have been left as the Queen of her people....
Re: Book of Hadith
i cant resist
Some people, in order to seek legitimacy for such appointment of women, cite the British royal system as a proof because it has a woman at its head. This is no justification, since in the first place, the British monarchy is non-Muslim. Had they been Muslim, they would never have chosen this path. Another group of people cites as justification, the Queen of Saba (Sheeba). The flimsiness of this is clearly evident, since everyone is aware that she was a kaafir (non-believing) woman. When Allah Ta'ala very clearly states in surah an-Namal that she was a worshipper of the sun, what relation does it then bear with the religion of Islam? Besides this, after she had accepted Islam, her country came under the rule of Sulaimaan (æ#129;layhis salaam). Another important point is that the British Royal system is in actual fact a Parliamentary system, where the Queen is compelled to attach her signature to everything that has been passed in parliament. In the true sense, this can never be regarded as control or rule, but it is a situation of meek submissiveness to parliament.
Re: Book of Hadith
lol even in henna /mehndi the king is ashkumar
Re: Book of Hadith
in fact she was no longer a leader once she accepted Islam....
Could you point out a Quranic reference?
Re: Book of Hadith
“And women have rights similar to the rights against them (i.e. the right of men) according to what is equitable and men have a degree over them.”[BAQARAH: 228]
“Men are overseers of women because Allâh Ta’âla granted virtue to some of them (i.e. men) over others (i.e. women) and because of their spending from their wealth”. [NISâ 34]
“… so that if one of the two women errs, the second would remind her”. (Al Baqarah, verse 281)
“And we have not sent messengers before you except that they were men.” [Al-Ambiyâ: 7]
Buzz words :OVERSEERS.DEGREE,ERRS,MEN
i wud ask her to explain this but she doesnt even know that the normal day islamic details she practises (assuming she does) come from hadith,neither does she answers questions which expose her stupidities.
Re: Book of Hadith
"men have a degree over them" - this verse is often misinterpreted. I believe it is adjacent to verses about divorce (can't remember). Either way, its sometimes interpreted that the "degree" you people have is in muscular strength. Male and female muscles do differ to a certain degree. I'm not sure how it would pertain to divorce, but I do recall somewhere that in the case of divorce, a man takes the children when they're older and provides them custody. This is not a "right" but a responsibility, buddy. You people have more responsibilities, not necessarily rights.
Men must spend on women, because again, its their responsibility. Women enjoy the right to not have to worry about their own finances if they can help it. I don't see how that makes women weak and unfit to be rulers.
In fact, all of the references you've provided have utterly nothing to do with political leaders of state and whether or not women can serve such roles.
The ayah specifically talks about leaders of state. Not of husbands. Not of male responsibility towards females. Not of who can be a prophet and who can't. It talks about political leadership. Bilquis, or Queen Sheba, is a political leader who stopped worshipping the sun after getting the message, and accepted God's law. I do not know of any evidence that she stopped being Queen, because God demanded that of her or anything of the sort. King Soloman praised her I believe when she became converted, and there is reference in the Quran that he admired her as a leader.
I don't see how much more plain and simple you can get. The hadith's say that the Prophet said any woman who leads a nation - that nation is going to suffer. And then the Quran praises Queen Sheeba. I mean, I just don't get how the contradiction can exist. The only plausible thing I see is maybe the Prophet was talking about leadership that requires women to physically fight in warfare. I am not really sure. Its possible he had said SOMETHING, but that the meaning has not been translated accurately in this hadith report.
Re: Book of Hadith
After embracing Islam, she also surrended her kingdom to Sulayman (AS) as was the order of Sulayman (AS). This is apparent in the following verse: He said: “Do you give me abundance in wealth … go back to them, for we will most certainly come to them with such armies that they will not be able to oppose, and we shall expel them in disgrace and they will be humbled.”[Verse 37]
She said: “Oh my Rabb! Verily I have wronged my soul and I have surrendered with Sulayman to Allâh, Rabb of the worlds.”[Verse 44]
ofcourse ofcourse wen she submitted to sulayman she just gave some money ,after all he doesnt ask for the citygate keys etc etc.and yea wen she surrenders she surrenders her soul not anything else.
but the quran doesnt tell u abt internet so y use it (ur logic)
and yea quran says u just have to pray,u can pray with however many sajdas or recite watever u want because ahadith tell us the details.(ur logic)
please answer lajawabs post n the questions directed at u,in reference to ur posts before ur attempts to change the topic.
Re: Book of Hadith
Verse 37 comes before Sheeba converted. Verse 44, like you said, is Sheeba surrendering to God, not to Sulaiman. Sulaiman took over the land, as I've re-read the passage. However, nowhere does it say in these verses that the reason for the take-over and her stepping down from power was because she is a woman and that's not her rightful place. Rather, the Quran says that everything was running smoothly under her hands, as a soldier of Soloman's reports to him (and this is God telling us that a female leader CAN be efficient and successful.
The point of the whole Sheeba story was that a female head of state was doing everything incredibly well, except she and her people worshipped the wrong deity. That was changed because she accepted Allah as her God later on, once she became acquainted with Sulaiman.
The fact that she stepped down from power has nothing to do with Sulaiman being a man and she being a female. It has to do with the fact that Sulaiman's army was an invading army and Sheeba's city was taken over. You can't have 2 kings. Once Sulaiman takes over the city for his empire building, then he's the king of it.
Lets say you had two leaders and God says well leader one has red hair and the second leader has black hair. Lets say leader 1 sweeps in and takes over leader 2's land, and leader 2 steps down. Is it appropriate then to say that all people with black hair are unfit to lead states, and only people with red hair can? Similarly, Sheeba's gender has nothing to do with her stepping down. If Queen sheeba was the one invading, and matters were reversed so that Sulaiman was taken over, then we can't really say that only females are fit to be leaders and men are not.
If women were unfit to be leaders, the Quran would have clearly said "Queen Sheeba should not have been a queen since women can't be leaders, and so Sulaiman was sent to take over".
I mean really people.
Re: Book of Hadith
Surah and Ayah number with the context please.
Re: Book of Hadith
The one where he sends in a second-hand or so to survey Queen Sheeba's lands, and come back with a report, and he reports back with the state of affairs being excellent in her land. All that except she's got the wrong god.