What is the original motive of blasphemy law and how does it protect the dignity of Prophets?
What is the criteria of declaring blasphemy?
Do religions require such law?
What was the prophetic or companion method of tackling such situation?
What is concept of forgiveness and judgement in such cases?
@Tahurra @muqawwee123 @Submission To Peace @Microbian
@psyah
Re: Blasphemy, Islam and Pakistan
All I know is you can’t make people respect those who you respect forcibly. Otherwise, this topic has no ends. Those who consider such laws effective will give you examples from Ashab e Rasool killing people and on other hand you can have many examples where such incidents were ignored.
I’m out of this discussion for my own good sake and after recent incidents advise others to be more careful.
Re: Blasphemy, Islam and Pakistan
prophet(saw) had many roles, he had to assume. One of them was to create and take care of the state.
Few of such cases arise and were punished, because they were also tying to make people rebel. Like treason.
On the other occasions, they were forgiven. Like last friday, under ikhlaq, *imam *told the incident when a *badoin
held prophet(saw) and shook him, asking for war spoils, no one knew how to react. Till rasoolullah(saw) smilled, *and
gave him some share.
Probelm attack us from 2 sided.
Muslims, out of ignorance can not distinguish, the roles Prophet(saw) assumed.
Non-muslims, some time deliberately, over look important details and make case against islam.
If this issue bother some muslims over and over, he/she should read prophets(saw) biography.
(very highly recommended)
Also around the current issue, hazrat aisha(ra) was very vocal, strong person.
What I(and even non-muslims historians) admire about her, she did not try to build her persona as some thing mighty(for lack of other words), she described incidents(even involving herself) with great clarity.
She had opinion about things, she expressed it too, and also how rasoolullah(saw), reacted to it.
Re: Blasphemy, Islam and Pakistan
^ by whom?
Re: Blasphemy, Islam and Pakistan
I read 2 1/2 so far.
First muslim.(very nice writing about how prophet felt at different times, revolution, about khadeja ra, aisha ra)
Prophet of our times. “karen armstrong”
Muhammad(saw) “Martin ling”
I say read all 3. in same order.
Re: Blasphemy, Islam and Pakistan
Peace mahool
The original motive of the blasphemy law was to protect the sentiments of the Muslims by criminalising any defamation of those who we consider above reproof. Thus maintaining order.
Not sure according to the current law … but in order to be fair and to eliminate foul play I would add some caveats
a) The accuser and the accused need to be of sound mind
b) There needs to be no provocation present to have caused the incident
c) Any citizens taking matters in their own hands prior to trial should be prosecuted themselves - this includes shouting it around the community causing a stir (only discrete police reports should be allowed - this is because prior to proof it is simply slander and inciting hatred).
d) Public apology will exonerate the act and be considered a clean slate
e) Hudd to be given on only if the accused has been proven 3 times of similar cases or if the accused openly makes a statement or writes something blasphemous and attempts to publicly distribute it
The problem is not technically with the law - its the abuse of the law by the mobs that makes it dangerous … The government need to pick up trouble makers from the mobs and give them equally strong sentences so they think twice before accusing people about things.
The law needs to be enforced properly - lay people are not allowed to be witness, judge and jury …
I don’t know if religions require such a law … Pakistan needs to make it a law that false accusations are punishable and exercise its corresponding hudd without failure.
The companions used to request from RasoolAllah (SAW) if they could flog someone for doing something wrong … most of the time the answer was no …
I don’t know about some people here - but there is always room for forgiveness and judgement needs to be carefully thought through.
Re: Blasphemy, Islam and Pakistan
and when you seize [someone for punishment], you seize [him] like tyrants
.*وَإِذَا بَطَشْتُم بَطَشْتُمْ جَبَّارِينَ
*ash-Shu`ara’ (The Poets) 26:130
*
I don’t know why but this ayat resonates with me for this particular situation. There is no mercy, no acceptance of apologies, no leeway for ignorance, simple death for what is essentially a victimless crime. No words, actions can touch the Prophet (saw). He is **not **a victim and his honour cannot be touched and only the Muslim ego that is being poked. And the Prophet (saw) is essentially being judged for the conduct of Muslims. Muslims represent him, their actions are meant to mirror his. Instead of being an example of mercy Muslims are more concerned about nurturing their ego.
I have read comments that even though they can’t find any proof that death sentence for blasphemy was ever used in Hadees, it’s time to change because these time are tougher for Muslims and death penalty is necessary. Amazing, how egoistic are people are that they think how a handful Muslims had it easier than the crores of Muslims now.
Re: Blasphemy, Islam and Pakistan
The only purpose to blasphemy laws seem to be in giving teeth to bigots and criminals. Such people are shunned by society until religion gets mixed in; in which case its piety.
Re: Blasphemy, Islam and Pakistan
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Re: Blasphemy, Islam and Pakistan
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Re: Blasphemy, Islam and Pakistan
Brother, I have written many a time, that Blasphemy law is nothing to do with Islam. Islam promotes free speech and freedom to believe, practice and say what one likes, as long as one is not physically harming anyone else.
One cannot enforce love or respect of anyone. Obviously, love is out of question, but even when respect is getting enforced, it only creates hate and fear of the person whose respect is getting enforced, so it is obvious that Islam cannot even afford that.
It is only false and misguided religion with illogical and indefensible beliefs that craves for enforced respect, and that is what happened in subcontinent.
British government took over India in 1857, and gave panel code act as law to govern subcontinent in 1860. In that panel code, they introduced blasphemy law (first time in subcontinent).
As far as I know, this was first time (1860) blasphemy law was introduced in area that had significant Muslim population. Else there is no evidence that any past (pre-colonial) Muslim governments ever had such law. Pakistan panel codes adopted laws given by British, and made them more stringent. Panel codes defining blasphemy are from 295 to 298. Pakistan modified British given laws (Panel code 1860), and thus in Pakistan Panel Code (PPC) there are various additions, extensions, and introductions of various penalties.
Pakistan has anti-blasphemy laws that are quite complicated. Offenders may be vigorously prosecuted. Chapter XV of Pakistan Penal Code deals with “offences relating to religion”:
· §295. Injuring or defiling place of worship, with intent to insult the religion of any class.
· §295-A. Deliberate and malicious acts intended to outrage religious feelings of any class by insulting Its religion or religious beliefs.
· §295-B. Defiling, etc., of Holy Qur’an.
· §295-C. Use of derogatory remarks, etc., in respect of the Holy Prophet.
· §296. Disturbing religious assembly.
· §297. Trespassing on burial places, etc.
· §298. Uttering words, etc., with deliberate intent to wound religious feelings.· §298-A. Use of derogatory remarks, etc., in respect of holy personages.
· §298-B. Misuse of epithets, descriptions and titles, etc., reserved for certain holy personages or places.
· §298-C. Person of Qadiani group, etc., calling himself a Muslim or preaching or propagating his faith:
There is a death penalty for blasphemy in Pakistan.
Punishment relating to the offence of Blasphemy (with applicable panel code and nature of blasphemy):
**Summary of Offences Relating to Religion
**[TABLE]
PPC
Description
Penalty
298A
Use of derogatory remarks etc., in respect of holy personages
Three years’ imprisonment, or with fine, or with both
298B
Misuse of epithets, descriptions and titles etc., reserved for certain holy personages or places, by Ahmadis
Three years’ imprisonment and fine
298C
An Ahmadi, calling himself a Muslim, or preaching or propagating his faith, or outraging the religious feelings of Muslims, or posing himself as a Muslim
Three years’ imprisonment and fine
295
Injuring or defiling places of worship, with intent to insult the religion of any class
Up to two years’ imprisonment or with fine, or with both
295A
Deliberate and malicious acts intended to outrage religious feelings of any class by insulting its religion or religious beliefs
Up to ten years’ imprisonment, or with fine, or with both
295B
Defiling, etc, or Holy Quran
Imprisonment for life
295C
Use of derogatory remarks, etc; in respect of the Holy Prophet
Death and fine
Islam and Blasphemy: I have written about this in my past posts more than 3 years ago (that I believe you must have missed). Let me put it down again.
Islam is clear regarding people involved with blasphemy, that such people and their blasphemy is test of believers and their patients, as believers would get hurt by their words (of blasphemy) but would stay patient and would leave them alone, whereas those who would not be believers would lose patient, would fight and would engage people doing blasphemy.
We have examples from both sources (Quran and Sunnah) what to do about blasphemy. As for Prophet (SAW), it is historical fact that Prophet (SAW) stayed patient and ignored those who used to abuse and ridicule him (SAW), ridicule Quran, and ridicule Islam. That is obvious too, as Quran gives same direction, that is to stay patient and ignore ignorant guilty of blasphemy. Prophet (SAW) was walking Quran, and would not have done anything contradictory to Quran.
As for Quran, there are numerous ayahs that deal with the situation and tell Muslims what to do in such situation, that is, to preserve patient and ignore person guilty of blasphemy.
Quran 4-140: Already has He sent you Word in the Book, that when you hear the signs (Revelations, Quran) of Allah held in defiance (rejected, disbelieved) and ridicule (mocked), ye are not to sit with them unless they turn to a different theme: if ye did, ye would be like them. For Allah will collect the hypocrites and those who defy faith - all in Hell:-
Above ayah is clear that when we find people doing blasphemy, that is, rejecting, mocking, or ridiculing signs of Allah (Prophets (AS), Quran, religious books, miracles by Prophets or religious personalities, Allah or Islam … they are all signs of Allah), we should leave them alone until they stop doing blasphemy and become believer. If we join them, that could happen if we keep sitting with them listening to their blasphemy, or not leave them alone, rather argue and fight them, persecute them or whatever, than we would be similar to them … would become those who are either unbelievers or hypocrites.
Quran 73-10: And have patience with what they say, and leave them with noble (dignity).
Quran 3-186: You shall certainly be tried and tested in your possessions and in your personal selves; and you shall certainly Hear much that will grieve you, from those who received the Book before you and from those who worship many gods. But if ye persevere patiently, and guard against evil,-then that will be a determining factor in all affairs.
Blasphemy is something that when believers hear, it brings grief to believers, and Allah tells that such grief would be test/trial for believers from Allah, as believers would bear this grief, preserves patient on the grief, and ignores the person giving grief by ignoring and moving away from that person … and that is the condition of success in such test/trial.
Those who would stay in the gathering would be unbelievers and those who would lose patient then retaliate, would be munafiqs. That is obvious, as those who would stay where blasphemy is going on without any reaction cannot be Muslim, but those who would stay and retaliate would not be Muslim too, as they are not Muslim for Allah but their own emotional, family or birth attachment to Islam as religion.
It is just like with everything. Money, properties, life, career, children, wife, or whatever we have in life. Even though we may love them but if we believe that all what we have belongs to Allah, we would be patient when we lose them, but if we love them and think that it is ours (we personally own them), then we would not lose them with patient, but we would get agitated when losing them and thus would retaliate … and that situation would show that the person is munafiq as that person might say that all what he/she has belongs to Allah, but he /she literally does not believe that.
Re: Blasphemy, Islam and Pakistan
Just a small correction- hudd usually is used to refer only to those punishments which are prescribed by Islam- stealing of a certain value, fornication and adultery, accusing someone of those without witnesses, etc. In hudd laws strict requirements for witnesses, circumstances of punishment, etc. are all spelled out exactly. This blasphemy law is not a hudd punishment, rather it is from tazir punishments, that is at the discretion of the judge/authority.
So just need to use a different word when explaining it.
Re: Blasphemy, Islam and Pakistan
I was using hudd as in the sense of maximum punishment - limit … treason being punishable by death, but it should be undeniably proven, lesser than that should result in lesser punishment. A crime under the blasphemy law could also be treason, but it may be less than that … So blasphemy law seems to encase several things.
Slander in the case of false accusation to zina is punishable to the hudd of capital punishment … so likewise if slander of an innocent is being made - calling him a blasphemer, that should warrant the same punishment as what has been established for the actual crime of the particular strain of blasphemy that is said to have been made. That is what I meant when I used it above.
May Allah (SWT) reward you for the clarification … And Allah (SWT) Knows Best …
Re: Blasphemy, Islam and Pakistan
Salam Alaikum
The Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam took 3 approaches with regards to those who were disrespectful towards Him SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam
I do not know so much about other cases of Blasphemy, but one thing is clear. What you have written is actually incorrect
Islam was sent down in stages, many early commands were abrogated so not every ayah can be used as a legislative ayah. There is other ayahs that are not used for legislation. I will have a look at the ayahs you have posted but it will take time.
Re: Blasphemy, Islam and Pakistan
Do you know that you made statement that ‘what I wrote is incorrect’, when what I wrote is with reference from Quran, and that means, you are saying that what is written in Quran is incorrect. I understand that you are defending your denial of Quran by saying that some ayahs are abrogated. Regardless, even if any ayah is abrogated or not, a Muslim cannot say and should not say that what is written there is incorrect.
Anyhow, what ayahs I quoted, nothing in them is abrogated. Actually, I have not gone in details, but there are many things in Islamic history as well as in Quran that confirms what I wrote is correct.
Nevertheless, it is blasphemous and great sin that a Muslim would reject verses of Quran and that also just on personal whim.
You wrote:
Above statement is blasphemous too and great sin to say that Prophet (SAW) used to discriminate in his approaches when giving justice to people. It does not suit a Prophet of Allah to discriminate in his approaches of giving justice, when dealing with people guilty of same crime, as that is considered as unjust.
Imagine, If I am judge and I have to deal with 3 people who has committed same crime, and I dealt with them differently.
To one I forgave.
To second I punished.
To third I delayed punishment.
Then who would call me or consider me just?
Do you know that there is hadith that says,Allah has destroyed people just because they used to discriminate when giving justice, punishing weak and forgiving strong and influential in their society.So, with that hadith, how can anyone accuse Prophet (SAW) that Prophet (SAW)used to treat people differently for same crime (blasphemy), discriminating when giving justice … forgive some, punish some, and delay punishment to some?
Fact is that, Prophet (SAW) always treated people who were guilty of blasphemy in same way, that is staying patient and ignoring them. If anyone says or think that Prophet (SAW) treated people guilty of blasphemy in different ways, than they are not only wrong, but are wrongly accusing Prophet (SAW) of being unjust (a it is unjust in to treat people guilty of same crime, differently). Such accusation is big sin and Muslim with such thinking should change their thinking.
Re: Blasphemy, Islam and Pakistan
Brother the words you are highlighting are meant to signify that one would have the same sin as them, not that we would be similar to them if we behaved with retribution.
I have never come across the interpretation that you are making. I have these tafsir works to highlight the standard position:
Translation of Tanwir al-Miqbas min Tafsir Ibn Abbas
says: …i.e. if you sit with them without being coerced to do so (ye would be like unto them) in engaging in the same conversation and in showing derision…" Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs -
The relevant portion of the Translation A-Qushairi Tafsir :" …For otherwise you would surely be like them: The clearest proof of a man’s secret being is the companionship of those whom he associates with and the relationship to those whom he befriends. Like is tied to like and the branch extends outward from the trunk." Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs -
This verse was abrogated with the command to Jihad
English translation of Tafsir Nur ul Irfan part2 page 873
(part 1) http://marfat.com/DownloadBooks/Noor-ul-Arfan(Kanz-ul-Emaan)%201/WQB.pdf
(part 2) http://marfat.com/DownloadBooks/Noor-ul-Arfan(Kanz-ul-Emaan)%202/WQB.pdf
Underlined conclusion is wrong. There is no ‘‘in my opinion’’ regarding this, it is wrong full stop
Re: Blasphemy, Islam and Pakistan
you do understand the context of this verse ?? Its Hud talking to people of A’ad, this is surah, where allah telling prophet(saw) not be sad, when people did not listen to him, and asked him for more spectacular miracles. Allah broaden Prophet(saw)'s vision by telling him previous people, like A’ad and noah and their nations.
Also I saw 6 translations, only noblequran.com tells it like a suggestion. Most others state is as question or morality "when you exercise your power, will you do it with more force then necessary? "(yahiya emerick translation)
Re: Blasphemy, Islam and Pakistan
I am not planning on giving a reply to your post No:15 yet
What I want you to see is that your basic premise is wrong on what you wrote earlier
Another tafsir confirming abrogation
Tafsir Al-Jalalayn on 73:10
“and bear patiently what they say, that is, the disbelievers of Mecca, in the way of their maltreatment [of you], and part with them in a gracious manner, without any anguish — this was [revealed] before the command to fight them.” Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs -
That’s 2/2 that I have looked at
Here two of the three ayats you had used to build your view, are not as you thought. Also verse 3:186 is hinting towards victory [inc physical victory] to RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam and the Believers, this victory as we know included Battles and killing of at least some of the disbelievers later in those Battles. When the Muslims conquest had succeeded in gaining Makkah some low number of the disbelievers were killed then
Please just accept that you got this one [utterly] wrong, don’t be too proud to do this
Re: Blasphemy, Islam and Pakistan
Er, yes? The basic premise of the Surah is that history repeats itself which is indeed what is happening and the questions asked before are just as relevant now as they were before.
Re: Blasphemy, Islam and Pakistan
Brother … read carefully and think about what you understand and believe, as haste in concluding or believing any writing wherever it is coming from, without thinking and understanding, can only misguide a person.
The ‘word used’ in ayah (4:140) revealed in 4 and 5 Hijri … was in Madina, where there were no-Kafirs, and Arabic word used is ‘Mislohum’. It means like them … or similar to them, so you cannot say that similar to them is wrong.
Further, ayah calls these people Munafiq (Munfaqoon) or Kafir (Kaferoon), who would go to hell (Jahannum). Calling them Munafiq clearly means Allah is talking about those who claim they are Muslims. In Madina at the time, people were either Muslims or Jews … and Quran never referred to Jews as kafir, rather they are referred as Ahle-Kitab. So, when ayah was revealed in Madina, and that also around 4 and 5 Hijri, it is obvious that people referred to in ayah are Muslims or ahle-kitab … whom Allah is calling Munafiqs or Kafirs.
You said that whatever written in Ayah means, ‘sitting with them without being coerced to do so, than only one is like them’ … so, what is big deal in what you wrote. It is obvious, as if one is coerced to do anything in Islam then there is no sin whatsoever one does … on the other hand, I could not apprehend that Muslims in Madina could be coerced to sit amongst people, who are doing blasphemy.
Ayah also tell Muslims that … if some people hold in defiance and ridicules signs of Allah … than one should not sit in their company until they turn to different topic (or different theme) … in other words, leave retaliation, Allah is not even telling Muslims to stop talking to them or leave their company … rather leave them and their company while they are showing defiance and ridiculing signs of Allah, warning those who do not leave their company at the time they are doing blasphemy as similar to them (kafir or Munafiq).
Note … Ayah 3:186 (again, this ayah came around or earlier than ayah 4:140) … though Surah is believed to have come in pieces, from 3 Hijri to 9 Hijri.
Quran 3-186: You shall certainly be tried and tested* in your possessions and in your personal selves; and you shall certainly Hear much that will grieve you, from those who received the Book before you and from those who worship many gods. But if ye persevere patiently, and guard against evil,-then that *will be a determining factor in all affairs.
In this ayah, it is clear that Allah would try and test Muslims through their possessions, personal self, and grieving things what they would hear (and for a believer, what could be more grieving that they can hear than blasphemy?). So obviously, words of blasphemy is trial of Allah for believers (and cause or opportunity of creating fitna for Munafiqs … what they are doing regularly in Pakistan).
It is surprising what you wrote without even understand or trying to understand mentioned Ayahs.
This ayah (73:10) is Makki, and I quoted the ayah as it is talking about same thing, that is to do with grieving things what one hears … and here Allah is saying that what grieving things one hears, one should show patience. There are other ayahs too, that tells that Allah put believers through test and trials, and in such situation, believer should show patience when facing such test and trials instead of creating fitna … or … persecute and oppress people … as Allah hates those who persecute and oppress others..
Anyhow, what i wrote about blasphemy does not depends on ayah (73:10) alone, as there are many other ayahs to validate what I wrote. Anyhow, since you raised the issue:
Your claiming that ayah 73:10 is abrogated once jihad (of sword) was allowed, than it seems ridiculous, as Quran gives guidance regarding Jihad … and in that guidance there is no such thing as Jihad for reason of blasphemy or hurting feelings of Muslims with words.
Jihad is only allowed to those who are wronged (oppressed, attacked, or persecuted) against those who wronged them. Actually, permission of Jihad was given to those who were oppressed or were expelled from their home unjustly because of their beliefs (religion, faith) … against those who oppressed or those who expelled them from their homes without any just cause but only for their belief (religion, faith).
Surah Al-Haj, part is revealed in Mecca and part Madina. Anyhow, permission of Jihad (to fight with sword) was given in Ayah 22: 39-40 … and these ayahs (22:39-40) were revealed during the month of Zil-Haj in 1 Hijri.
Quran 22:39 … Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them;
Quran 22:40 … Those who have been expelled from their homes without a just cause except that they say: Our Lord is Allah. And had there not been Allah’s repelling some people by others, certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah’s name is much remembered; and surely Allah will help him who helps His cause; most surely Allah is Strong, Mighty.
Again in 2 Hijri, Quran (8:39) says the same, repeating the condition that is mentioned in Surah Al-Haj (22:39-40) … that Muslims should fight people who are oppressors and persecutors … but cease fighting if they cease their oppression and persecution (again, oppression and persecution could not include blasphemy or hurting feelings of believers with words).
Al-Anfal 8:39 (revealed 2 Hijri) … And fight them on until there is no more tumult, persecution or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.
Same is confirmed by Allah in later ayahs (before fath-e-Mecca)… when ayah 60:9 was revealed in 8 Hijri before Muslims attacked Mecca, that Muslims should fight those who have persecuted and oppressed them (Muslims) … and driven them (Muslims) out of their homes (Mecca). In the ayah there is nothing about jihad (qattal) on what other says (blasphemy) to hurt the feelings of believers. Here is ayah that gives condition of jihad (by sword). Surah Al-Mumtahanah, Ayah 60:9 that was revealed just before fath-e-Mecca (~8 Hijri)
Quran 60: 8 … Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.
Quran 60:9 … Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.
Regardless of whoever makes claim of abrogation … it is not understandable how verse (73:10), telling believers to be patient on what people say (blasphemy or words that hurts feelings of believers) can get abrogated by permission of Jihad (by sword), where such Jihad is not against what people says (their words), but Jihad is against people who oppress, persecute and those who drove Muslims from their homes? .,. Such claim of abrogation (made by anyone) is ridiculous and absurd.
Are you getting wahi from Allah? Can you please let me know, who are you or anyone to declare that what I wrote is wrong? Why my opinions that I am claiming after giving several Quranic references to support my claims are wrong, and those who have opinions that to me is contradicting Quran are right? Are you or these people, Prophet or angel bringing message from Allah, to claim that what I wrote is wrong and what they claim is right?
Well, you can say I am wrong if you can show me that what I wrote with reference to Quran as proof is illogical or absurd, and what you are claiming is logical and according to what is mentioned in Quran. Else, do not say things, what you wrote, that shows nothing but ignorance as well as arrogance: