Re: Blasphemy - Christian couple killed and burnt
so more information.
Most(all most) all of the initiator of such cases are braelvis.
No Wonder.
Re: Blasphemy - Christian couple killed and burnt
I don't remember seeing it... but googled it and couldn't find a provision which allows bystanders/public to kill anyone 'accused' of blasphemy.
captian i never said that the law allows public to kill the blasphemy accuser....it does not
but...given that people have been misusing the law for a while (by blaming anyone for blasphemy and in most cases wrongfully to achieve their own petty benefits) why do we need this law? forget non muslims for a second, i know cases where a muslim accused another muslim opponent for blasphemy for personal reasons, produced few witnesses and ruined his life in courts
and i then made the second point that pak has 98% of muslim majority, so why would a tiny harassed minority ever commit blasphemy knowingly? therefore retrospectively speaking, do we really need this law? now if we had 30% of our population consisted of minority with many reported cases of blasphemy, i would have supported the law but not in a 98% muslim majority country.
last but not least, masses know that constitutionally a blasphemy accuser will be handed over the death sentence in the court as well ... so once someone swear on quran and say that i heard this man or woman committing blasphemy, they in their minds are doing the justice right there. I dont think there were many cases of masses killing people for blasphemy at the spot before this law ...so there is a strong correlation.
Re: Blasphemy - Christian couple killed and burnt
captian i never said that the law allows public to kill the blasphemy accuser....it does not
Okay, so the law does not allow public to kill anyone accused of blasphemy, good, so one point cleared.
but...given that people have been misusing the law for a while (by blaming anyone for blasphemy and in most cases wrongfully to achieve their own petty benefits) why do we need this law? forget non muslims for a second, i know cases where a muslim accused another muslim opponent for blasphemy for personal reasons, produced few witnesses and ruined his life in courts
That example is different from what we are discussing here... here a mob killed a couple.
and i then made the second point that pak has 98% of muslim majority, so why would a tiny harassed minority ever commit blasphemy knowingly? therefore retrospectively speaking, do we really need this law? now if we had 30% of our population consisted of minority with many reported cases of blasphemy, i would have supported the law but not in a 98% muslim majority country.
You are talking about religious-insecurity as well as sectarian issue, its not just the minority but as you have already seen the 'police axed .....' thread where one sect can kill another for same reason.
last but not least, masses know that constitutionally a blasphemy accuser will be handed over the death sentence in the court as well ... so once someone swear on quran and say that i heard this man or woman committing blasphemy, they in their minds are doing the justice right there. I dont think there were many cases of masses killing people for blasphemy at the spot before this law ...so there is a strong correlation.
Religious extremism was also not as 'intense' as it was before, so it has more to do with intensity of extremism/hatred than this law when its clear that the law does not allow anyone to kill anyone.
Re: Blasphemy - Christian couple killed and burnt
Okay, so the law does not allow public to kill anyone accused of blasphemy, good, so one point cleared.
That example is different from what we are discussing here... here a mob killed a couple.
You are talking about religious-insecurity as well as sectarian issue, its not just the minority but as you have already seen the 'police axed .....' thread where one sect can kill another for same reason.
Religious extremism was also not as 'intense' as it was before, so it has more to do with intensity of extremism/hatred than this law when its clear that the law does not allow anyone to kill anyone.
Please dont tell me your one off those who thinks this idiotic law is somehow blameless in Pakistans current situation.
No this law doesnt specifically allow people to take matters into their own hands, but its does create an atmosphere in which extremist and zealots feel they are justified in murdering others for the sake of so called Blasphemy. The law promotes extremism if not in word, then by its very existence.
Re: Blasphemy - Christian couple killed and burnt
Please dont tell me your one off those who thinks this idiotic law is somehow blameless in Pakistans current situation.
No this law doesnt specifically allow people to take matters into their own hands, but its does create an atmosphere in which extremist and zealots feel they are justified in murdering others for the sake of so called Blasphemy. The law promotes extremism if not in word, then by its very existence.
The law is THE result of extremism that existed when it was created... you can consider it chicken-egg scenario, but to me the law came into being because there was extremism in the society. The extremism in the society is what we need to take care of first before we can do anything about the law. You can eliminate the law for all I care but the mob-kill-alleged-blasphemer cases will not disappear.
Re: Blasphemy - Christian couple killed and burnt
This breaks my heart. What a stupid animalistic nation we have become.
Punjab govt has to take some serious action to control the religious intolerance. Every time a blasphemy related killing thread opens up here, by default you can tell that it happened in Punjab.
I noticed that too.
The solutions is not simply right punishment for such crimes, but also creating the right norms and improving the nature and quality of religious, and ethical education in the country across all public and private schools.
As far a public schooling goes, i have no idea how to improve it in Pakistan.
Schooling is a far off dream...how about some basic human rights first.
If Muhammad (PBUH) or his Sahabas were killing everyone showing disrespect towards Islam or Muhammad (PBUH), Islam would not have even spread out of Madina let alone the world.
THIS ^
Some one has to do the work. Religious emotion are all fine, but if justice is done. people would learn to hold such emotion inside. But some one has to do the work, and its not people.
Why is it not the people? Where is their conscious? Every human being has a responsibility to uphold the law...not just the corrupt officials. I dislike this mentality of leaving the public responsibility free. The laws are there to be respected by the average human being.
This is why religion has no haisiyat, place, respect or muqaam in Pak.
Take Islam out of the equation and then see what happens. Religion has NO place in the government.
I have no issue with Islam, just with the way its allegedly practiced there. Its an act of defamation for the entire Muslim world.
Re: Blasphemy - Christian couple killed and burnt
In Islam, burning anyone for whatever reason, especially punishment, is not allowed, as only Allah have right to punish with fire. Hence, a Muslim would never burn someone to punish, the way these criminals have done. Shows that these people are not Muslim but animals.
Anyhow, since they burned this couple so brutally, I believe these criminals should get the feeling what it is like to get burned ... not as punishment but for realization ... punishment for them all should be hanging to death.
Re: Blasphemy - Christian couple killed and burnt
I noticed that too.
Schooling is a far off dream...how about some basic human rights first.
THIS ^
Why is it not the people? Where is their conscious? Every human being has a responsibility to uphold the law...not just the corrupt officials. I dislike this mentality of leaving the public responsibility free. The laws are there to be respected by the average human being.
This is why religion has no haisiyat, place, respect or muqaam in Pak.
Take Islam out of the equation and then see what happens. Religion has NO place in the government.
I have no issue with Islam, just with the way its allegedly practiced there. Its an act of defamation for the entire Muslim world.
That is the most difficult part and essential of the equation.
If some one can make people mature then nothing like it.
Until then more easier is official start working properly.
Re: Blasphemy - Christian couple killed and burnt
That is the most difficult part and essential of the equation. If some one can make people mature then nothing like it.
Until then more easier is official start working properly.
Monk, it saddens me to say this butttttt
When the people are the ones who vote and bring corruption into their governments and when they knowingly contribute to the destabilization of their land.........**THEY **should be held responsible.
Its a cycle and it will never break until someone steps in and says "Okay guys, show's over...Pakistan you had your chance at this...let's go back to being a part of India".
Re: Blasphemy - Christian couple killed and burnt
Its a cycle and it will never break until someone steps in and says "Okay guys, show's over...Pakistan you had your chance at this...let's go back to being a part of India".
i know you are frustrated.............all of us are but not so sure if going back to india is the solution. We need to continue to contribute in whichever we can to help our society...
Re: Blasphemy - Christian couple killed and burnt
Monk, it saddens me to say this butttttt
When the people are the ones who vote and bring corruption into their governments and when they knowingly contribute to the destabilization of their land.........**THEY **should be held responsible.
Its a cycle and it will never break until someone steps in and says "Okay guys, show's over...Pakistan you had your chance at this...let's go back to being a part of India".
We want a fix on the ground. Holding some one responsible with out backing it up with law and force is not much help.
No going back to no where. Will get through this.
Re: Blasphemy - Christian couple killed and burnt
i know you are frustrated.............all of us are but not so sure if going back to india is the solution. We need to continue to contribute in whichever we can to help our society...
We want a fix on the ground. Holding some one responsible with out backing it up with law and force is not much help. No going back to no where. Will get through this.
Its not a choice is it?
At some point, it will come up because of the mess that keeps getting messier.
Re: Blasphemy - Christian couple killed and burnt
Its not a choice is it?
At some point, it will come up because of the mess that keeps getting messier.
countries go through lot worst in their history.
Re: Blasphemy - Christian couple killed and burnt
Monk, it saddens me to say this butttttt
When the people are the ones who vote and bring corruption into their governments and when they knowingly contribute to the destabilization of their land.........**THEY **should be held responsible.
Its a cycle and it will never break until someone steps in and says "Okay guys, show's over...Pakistan you had your chance at this...let's go back to being a part of India".
Thats the worst post in this thread.
Re: Blasphemy - Christian couple killed and burnt
yes. In fact worst post ever @RehaReha do you any idea what minorities went through and go through in india ? ](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/member.php?u=65041)
Re: Blasphemy - Christian couple killed and burnt
Is it worse than the atrocities people are going through every single day?
And one more thing I have an issue with is this hiding culture. Jo horaha hai usay honay do…bass uspe koi baat na karay.
OF course this will offend you - its India we’re talking about and dying might be a better alternative for some. However, if you cannot handle the heat…someone may ask you to step out of the kitchen at one point.
You’re emotional and biased. But from a 3rd party’s perspective…its natural to think this way.
Re: Blasphemy - Christian couple killed and burnt
^You are ignorant. Christians are being treated the same way in India, if not any worse. Nuns have been raped, christians and their kids burned alive, hundreds killed, many forced to convert in India. And I need not mentin what happens to muslims in India.
And the comparison was between your post and rest of the posts in the thread, not with the atrocities.
Re: Blasphemy - Christian couple killed and burnt
Is it worse than the atrocities people are going through every single day?
your post ? no
how a post can be worst then atrocities, unless it cause atrocities
[quote]
And one more thing I have an issue with is this hiding culture. Jo horaha hai usay honay do...bass uspe koi baat na karay.
[/quote]
No we dont want to hide stuff.
[quote]
OF course this will offend you - its India we're talking about and dying might be a better alternative for some. However, if you cannot handle the heat...someone may ask you to step out of the kitchen at one point.
You're emotional and biased. But from a 3rd party's perspective...its natural to think this way.
[/QUOTE]
No india any thing but ideal country for minorities.
Issue here is, pakistan is in the spot light all the time.
So you know what you see on news.
But you have no idea what india is like.
Re: Blasphemy - Christian couple killed and burnt
^You are ignorant. Christians are being treated the same way in India, if not any worse. Nuns have been raped, christians and their kids burned alive, hundreds killed, many forced to convert in India. And I need not mentin what happens to muslims in India.
of course...everyone is ignorant.
Re: Blasphemy - Christian couple killed and burnt
i think most of north india shares this riot and kill mob culture with their pakistani brothers. the difference is this blasphemy garbage makes pakistanis even more blind.