Bilour proposes confederation of Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Afghanistan!!!

Re: Bilour proposes confederation of Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Afghanistan!!!

where did i say few hundred soliders,lahore wasn't only place were war going on ,do you want me tell how many of ur tanks are lying in indian muesuem
don't give me india had huge army BS.full scale war mean't huge economic/sanctions and then there was third party like US which would have never allowed.......

Re: Bilour proposes confederation of Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Afghanistan!!!

Calm down people. This all debate shows that neither Bilour's idea of confederation in plausible nor the idea of Akhand Bharata can come true. What had happened can't be undone. Generals and elites made fool of the emotional people on both sides. We are so called nuclear powers and our people are dying hungry. Lets not be proud of the old wars and conceived victories, lets think of the future which can only be bright, if we accept each others existence. Period :)

Re: Bilour proposes confederation of Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Afghanistan!!!

Nuetral Sources:

The war was militarily inconclusive; each side held prisoners and some territory belonging to the other. Losses were relatively heavy—on the Pakistani side, twenty aircraft, 200 tanks, and 3,800 troops. Pakistan’s army had been able to withstand Indian pressure, but a continuation of the fighting would only have led to further losses and ultimate defeat for Pakistan. Most Pakistanis, schooled in the belief of their own martial prowess, refused to accept the possibility of their country’s military defeat by “Hindu India” and were, instead, quick to blame their failure to attain their military aims on what they considered to be the ineptitude of Ayub Khan and his government.

  • TIME magazine reported that India held 690 mi[SUP]2[/SUP] of Pakistan territory while Pakistan held 250 mi[SUP]2[/SUP] of Indian territory in Kashmir and Rajasthan. Additionally, Pakistan had lost almost half its armour temporarily. The article further elaborates,

Severely mauled by the larger Indian armed forces, Pakistan could continue the fight only by teaming up with Red China and turning its back on the U.N.

  • Devin T. Hagerty wrote in his book “South Asia in world politics”

The invading Indian forces outfought their Pakistani counterparts and halted their attack on the outskirts of Lahore, Pakistan’s second-largest city. By the time United Nations intervened on September 22, Pakistan had suffered a clear defeat.

  • In his book “National identity and geopolitical visions”, Gertjan Dijkink writes –

The superior Indian forces, however, won a decisive victory and the army could have even marched on into Pakistani territory had external pressure not forced both combatants to cease their war efforts.

  • An excerpt from Stanley Wolpert’s India, summarizing the Indo-Pakistani War of 1965,

In three weeks the second Indo-Pak War ended in what appeared to be a draw when the embargo placed by Washington on U.S. ammunition and replacements for both armies forced cessation of conflict before either side won a clear victory. India, however, was in a position to inflict grave damage to, if not capture, Pakistan’s capital of the Punjab when the cease-fire was called, and controlled Kashmir’s strategic Uri-Poonch bulge, much to Ayub’s chagrin.

  • In his book titled The greater game: India’s race with destiny and China, David Van Praagh wrote–

India won the war. It gained 1,840 km[SUP]2[/SUP] (710 sq mi) of Pakistani territory: 640 km[SUP]2[/SUP] (250 sq mi) in Azad Kashmir, Pakistan’s portion of the state; 460 km[SUP]2[/SUP] (180 sq mi) of the Sailkot sector; 380 km[SUP]2[/SUP] (150 sq mi) far to the south of Sindh; and most critical, 360 km[SUP]2[/SUP] (140 sq mi) on the Lahore front. Pakistan took 540 km[SUP]2[/SUP] (210 sq mi) of Indian territory: 490 km[SUP]2[/SUP] (190 sq mi) in the Chhamb sector and 50 km[SUP]2[/SUP] (19 sq mi) around Khem Karan.

  • Dennis Kux’s “India and the United States estranged democracies” also provides a summary of the war

Although both sides lost heavily in men and material, and neither gained a decisive military advantage, India had the better of the war. New Delhi achieved its basic goal of thwarting Pakistan’s attempt to seize Kashmir by force. Pakistan gained nothing from a conflict which it had instigated.

  • BBC reported that the war served game changer in Pakistani politics

The defeat in the 1965 war led to the army’s invincibility being challenged by an increasingly vocal opposition. This became a surge after his protege, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, deserted him and established the Pakistan People’s Party.

  • A region in turmoil: South Asian conflicts since 1947” by Robert Johnson mentions–

India’s strategic aims were modest – it aimed to deny Pakistani Army victory, although it ended up in possession of 720 square miles (1,900 km[SUP]2[/SUP]) of Pakistani territory for the loss of just 220 square miles (570 km[SUP]2[/SUP]) of its own.

  • An excerpt from William M. Carpenter and David G. Wiencek’s “Asian security handbook: terrorism and the new security environment” –

A brief but furious 1965 war with India began with a covert Pakistani thrust across the Kashmiri cease-fire line and ended up with the city of Lahore threatened with encirclement by Indian Army. Another UN-sponsored cease-fire left borders unchanged, but Pakistan’s vulnerability had again been exposed.

  • English historian John Keay’s “India: A History” provides a summary of the 1965 war –

The 1965 Indo-Pak war lasted barely a month. Pakistan made gains in the Rajasthan desert but its main push against India’s Jammu-Srinagar road link was repulsed and Indian tanks advanced to within a sight of Lahore. Both sides claimed victory but India had most to celebrate.

  • Uk Heo and Shale Asher Horowitz write in their book “Conflict in Asia: Korea, China-Taiwan, and India-Pakistan” –

Again India appeared, logistically at least, to be in a superior position but neither side was able to mobilize enough strength to gain a decisive victory.

  • Newsweek magazine, however, praised the Pakistani military’s ability to hold of the much larger Indian Army.

By just the end of the week, in fact, it was clear that the Pakistanis were more than holding their own.

Re: Bilour proposes confederation of Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Afghanistan!!!

You are the one saying India never sent in full force. What did they send in to fight a 17 day war? As for tanks the Indian tank called "pride of India" which led the charge on Sialkot was on exhibition in Lahore after the war and I had the honour of visiting it and seeing it. The tank which came to wipe out Pakistan was lying limp in the middle of Lahore for all to see. Inida outguns and out numbers Pak army by far, if you dont know that than I suggest you use google and get some facts.

Re: Bilour proposes confederation of Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Afghanistan!!!

Agree with you but sometimes people should stop fake nationalism..........
it can only happen with accepting ur mistakes and learn from those mistakes instead of passing those hatred to ur future generation like the case still many people believe pakistan was mighty in defeating which wasn't the case

Re: Bilour proposes confederation of Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Afghanistan!!!

Just goes to prove my point that some are saying Pakistan held its own others are saying that india won. Also they are pointing to the fact that you outgun and outnumbered Pakistan and if the conflict had continued you would have ultimately won. There is no denying the fact that is what I have said before that it was a draw and we held our own and you failed in your main aim to capture Lahore.

Re: Bilour proposes confederation of Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Afghanistan!!!

as i said biggest army doesn't mean you can go out all gun blazing,from starting we had other issues to concentrate on unlike india centric policy of pakistan

there was always other big power to keep check of india,unlike army generals ruling pakistan we had politicians who know how to play the card internationally

Re: Bilour proposes confederation of Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Afghanistan!!!

Applies to you as well, in your fake nationalism you are not prepared to accept that India failed in its mission to capture Lahore.

Re: Bilour proposes confederation of Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Afghanistan!!!

The question is not who was mighty and who won, the question to be raised was that worth that. were 4 wars in the regions in 60 years after massacre during partition not enough to quench the thirst of exploiters? I'm sorry people cry for heavy expenditure allocated in budget to military, but are not ready to change the mindset of fighting with the neighbor countries.

Re: Bilour proposes confederation of Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Afghanistan!!!

Your obsession with Pakistan continues to date, whether it be political forums or cricket and you have the nerve to talk about india centric policy of Pakistan. Look at your own house before throwing allegation about others. We are not perfect but you people are far far from it.

Re: Bilour proposes confederation of Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Afghanistan!!!

that's why there were big powers to stop that from happening
same is the case now with nuclear weapons................

what iam trying to say stop taking pride in this war since pakistan started the war to achieve it's goal of taking kashmir from india which didn't happen
there is nothing wrong in accepting ur mistakes,it's what makes u stronger for future instead of continuing that hatred,we learnt hard lesson by nehru's soft policy thinking that china was it's brother
india lost the portions of akasai chin,pakistan thought they coulld also win war by believing one pakistan solider is equal to 10 indian soliders

Re: Bilour proposes confederation of Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Afghanistan!!!

is it wrong to know about pakistan,by visiting this sites i came to know more about pakistan which removed many misconceptions
trust me except for few people on internet,majority of indians don't even know how pakistan looks like
maybe except in punjab region for the most of indians pakistan is like afghanistan we don't get any news on pakistan except for bomb blasts

Re: Bilour proposes confederation of Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Afghanistan!!!

and you came all that way to tell us about our mistakes?!

Re: Bilour proposes confederation of Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Afghanistan!!!

Yeah I believe you!!! That is why Indian vs Pakistan Matches are always sold out and that is the very reason dozens of Indian tv telecast nothing but things about and against Pakistan and that is the very reason if anything happens in a remote corner of India, they blames it on Pakistan

Re: Bilour proposes confederation of Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Afghanistan!!!

No one is taking pride in war, I am against war but I felt I had to come in here and correct some misconceptions about the 65 war.

Re: Bilour proposes confederation of Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Afghanistan!!!

thats all people know about pakistan what showen on media

usually i don't get into this indo-pak internet wars,i would be one of the guys to defend when some my friends bash pakistan by seeing this media.......
dude only people to people level talks can decrease the tension

Re: Bilour proposes confederation of Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Afghanistan!!!

By your I didnt mean you personally, I meant India.

Re: Bilour proposes confederation of Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Afghanistan!!!

well we have our defference of opinon

i think it's better to rest this war which happend before my parents were born or maybe they were 1or 2 year old.......

if i did offend you iam sorry uncleji

Re: Bilour proposes confederation of Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Afghanistan!!!

Mian Jee, you are pissing the point, it is not some state sponsored media, it is private media which only sales what sells, be it sex, controversy, corruption scandal or Pakistan... out of these Sex and Pakistan are the most favorite topic for most of the channels in India!!! So don't come here telling us Indians don't know anything or are not interested to know about Pakistan....

Re: Bilour proposes confederation of Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Afghanistan!!!

What ever Indians are taught in their schools…This is straight from a journalist. :slight_smile:

SHEKHAR GUPTA - Indian Express

** In the 22-day war in 1965, for example, as schoolchildren we were taught that the Pakistani pilots were so scared of the tiny Gnat that they fled the moment they spotted one. **