Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
Asalaamu'Alaykum people
im here now Alhamdullilah.
i was watching Dr Zakir Naik on Tv earlier on. im sure u all agree he knows what he's on abt and he was talkin abt BIDAH(no mention of the goods 1s there, Alhamdullilah).
anyway bak to where we were.........
regarding what you said abt "*. The word "كل" (kul) as used in both hadiths refers to `most,' although it can mean "every" it does not mean this in all cases" *
i can tell you i KNOW it mean "every" so i suggest you go speak to an Arab abt that. no need to argue abt that.
regarding the hadith abt Umar Bin AL Khattab(RA) talkin abt good bidah
i can say that how can something the Prophet(saw) do be a good bidah? if you refer to his seerah then you will know what i am talkin abt. he himself prayed the taraweeh in jamaa'h
The Messenger of Allah (saas) was the first to establish the Sunnah of congregational, jamaa`ah prayer of taraweeh in the Masjid. Then he did not continue with the Sunnah for fear that it might be made mandatory on the Ummah in Ramadan, and they might not be able to do it. In the books of Bukhari and Muslim, 'Aishah (raa) has been reported as saying:
"The Messenger of Allah (saas) observed Taraweeh prayer in the Masjid one night and people prayed with him. He repeated the following night and the number of participants grew. The companions congregated the third and fourth night, but the Messenger did not show up. In the morning he told them, "I saw what you did last night, but nothing prevented me from joining you except my fear that it might be made mandatory on you in Ramadan."
This hadith is a clear indication that the Taraweeh in congregation was not an innovation of 'Umar, the second Khalifah, despite his saying to the contrary. For it has been related that: "Umar bin Al-Khattab attended the Masjid at night in Ramadan and saw people praying individually in every corner of the Masjid with a few in groups. He did not like the sight a bit. 'Umar said, I thought it would be better to gather these under one Imam'. So, he combined them under 'Obayi bin Ka'ab and Tamimu Ad-Dari to alternate and lead the believers in eleven raka'ats of night prayer. The next dayUmar was in the Masjid which was full with Taraweeh prayers. He was delighted. He said: `Well, this is the best Bid'ah (innovation).'"
`Umar's use of the word bid'ah in this report has now been presented and unjustifiably cited as justification for concocting up various so called good innovations. In truth, the Khalifah 'Umar's act to gather the believers in Jama'ah is not bid'ah. For it was the Messenger of Allah himself who started jama'ah by praying in congregation the first and second day, then stopped only as he feared it would become mandatory. After his death, the fear of Taraweeh becoming mandatory (Fard) was not only remote, it was impossible. With the death of the Prophet Muhammad (saas), there will be no more revelation to change any law or rule by abrogation.
you say Bukhari and muslim qouted this incidence well now mention bukhari lets see what he sez abt "Good Bidah" infact not just him, many more (enjoy).......
Abdullaah ibn Umar (RA) states, "every innovation is misguidance, even if the people regard it as GOOD." (ad-Daarimee)
Mu'aadh bin Jabal (RA) used to say, whenever he sat in a circle of knowledge, "and I warn you of what is innovated, for all that is innovated is misguidance" [ash-Sharee'ah pg.55, also Abu Dawood with similar wording]
Abdullaah ibn Mas'ud (RA) said, "follow the sunnah of Muhammad and do not innovate, for what you have been commanded is enough for you." [ad-Daarimee]
Hudhayfah bin al-Yaman said, "every act of worship that the Companions did not do, do not do it" [Abu Dawood]
Is this not enough? That the Companions tell us to follow the way of Muhammad (SAW) and not to make up new ways of worship?
"whomsoever Allaah guides to the truth, none can misguide him, and whomsoever Allaah misguides, none can guide"! [Muslim]
also lets put some icing to the cake with some sayongs from our respected Imaams-
Imaam Abu Haneefah said, "stick to the narrations and the way of the salaf, and beware of the newly invented matters for all of it is innovation" [Sawnul Muntaq of as-Suyutee pg.32]
Imaam Maalik said, "he who innovates an innovation in Islaam regarding it as something good, has claimed that Muhammad (SAW) has betrayed his trust to deliver the message as Allaah says, 'this day have I perfected for you your religion'. And whatsoever was not part of the religion then, is not part of the religion today." [al-I'tisaam]
He also said, "how evil are the People of Innovation, we do not give them salaam" [al-Ibaanah of ibn Battah (d.387) no.441]
Imaam Ahmad said, "the fundamental principles of the sunnah with us are:.avoiding innovations and every innovation is misguidance" [Usul as-Sunnah of Imaam Ahmad pg.1]
As for the narrations from Imaam ash-Shaafi'ee in which he categorises bid'ah into two, then it is weak as all of it's chains of narrations depend upon unknown narrators. [al-Bid'ah of Shaykh Saleem al-Hilaalee, al-Masaabeeh fee Salaatit Taraaweeh of as-Suyutee with Alee Hasans footnotes]. Not only this but in his risalah he rejects the concept of istihsaan because 'the person doing so has legislated in the sharee'ah' i.e. without permission from Allaah.
Imaam Bukhaaree said, "I have met more than a thousand scholars.(then he mentioned the names of the more prominent in each of the lands that he travelled in) and I found that they all agreed on the following points: they all used to prohibit bid'ah - that which the Prophet and his Companions were not upon, because of the saying of Allaah, 'and hold fast to the rope of Allaah and do not separate'" [Imaam Bukhaaree's article on belief as quoted in Sharh Usul I'tiqaad 1/170. From amongst the scholars he met were: Ahmad bin Hanbal, Abu Ubaid al-Qaasim, ibn Ma'een, ibn Aasim, ibn Abee Shaybah.
im not quite sure if iv covered all of your accusations but atleast i reply to the specific ones you make. i refuted yr comments on ibn taymiyyah and you hav not even commented on that brother. whats up? goin thru some more books that are against him? insha-Allah take your time. im here!
and regarding the accusation that Ibn Taymiyyah said "hell fire will come to and end"
i will copy and paste the reply given my a brother i know well. Abu Rumaysah. he has studied his life thoroughly and is a pro wen it comes to ibn Taymiyyah. dnt let me bring him on. anyway here you go.......(btw its quite long but any true muslim searchin for the truth wudnt mind how long it is)
) The Accusation that ibn Taymiyyah held the Hellfire to come to an end:
Another accusation by which the opponents declared ibn Taymiyyah to be misguided due to his contradicting the ‘consensus’ on this issue. Yet nowhere in the works of ibn Taymiyyah does he say this, in fact what we find from him is the exact opposite, and we challenge anybody who accuses ibn Taymiyyah of this to bring his proof.
Ibn Taymiyyah says,
"The Salaf of this nation, its Imaams, and the whole Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaaah are agreed that there are some things from the creation that will not come to an end in their entirety like Paradise, Hellfire, the Throne, and others. No one believed that all of the creation would come to an end except for a group from the People of innovated speech (*Ahl al-Kalaam*) and those who agreed with them from amongst the Mutazila and their likes. This is an invalid opinion which contradicts the Book of Allaah, the Sunnah of His Messenger and the consensus of the nation and its Imaams." [‘Bayaan Talbees al-Jahmiyyah’ (1/851)]
This is from one perspective, as for the other than it is over the issue of the Punishment of the Hellfire coming to an end. This is an issue over which there is a difference of opinion emanating from the Salaf themselves as the reader of the Tafseers of at-Tabari, as-Suyuti and others can see under the verse 11:107 and 6:128. It is possible to explain these narrations in two ways: the first being that the saying of some of the Companions and Taabi`een that, ‘their will come a time when there will be no-one in Hellfire’ is to be taken literally. The second is that it is to be taken to refer only to the Muslims in the Hellfire.
No matter how we take it, to rule someone’s deviancy or unbelief based on this is not possible, for only one who contradicts a consensus that is firmly established to exist, and unequivocal in it’s meaning can be ruled to be a deviant or a disbeliever. This is not the case here despite the efforts of some scholars to make it seem so. Even if it were so, then neither ibn Taymiyyah or ibn al-Qayyim held this view, so do not be deceived by what the likes of as-Subki writes in his ‘al-Itibaar bi Baqaa al-Jannah wa an-Naar’ (forming part of his ‘Risaail’).
As-Subki says, in the course of his discussion on this point,
"…I came across the aforementioned book and he mentioned in it three opinions over the Hellfire coming to an end. 1) both Paradise and Hell will end and he said that no one from the salaf held this opinion. 2) that both are eternal. 3) that Paradise remains and Hellfire will come to an end. And he inclined to this position and said that this was the madhab of the Salaf." ‘al-I’tibaar’ (pg. 201)]
The opponents who read this book, thought that as-Subki was referring to ibn Taymiyyah and hence the origin of this accusation against ibn Taymiyyah. But in reality this is from the words of ibn al-Qayyim and it seems that as-Subki did not even fully read what this Imaam had to say!"
Ibn al-Qayyim says: ‘Al-Haadee al-Arwaah’ (pg. 429+),
"And this is an issue over which the latter people differed over, falling into three opinions:
That both Paradise and Hell will come to an end and are not eternal, rather just as all created things they will come to an end.
That both will remain, never coming to an end.
That Paradise is eternal, and the Hellfire will come to an end.
We will mention these opinions and their proponents along with their evidences, and we will reject what contradicts the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of His Messenger.
1) As for the first saying, then it was said by Jahm bin Safwaan, the Imaam of the Jahmiyyah, and he did not any precedent in this from the Salaf - neither in the Companions, nor the Taabieen, nor any of the Imaams of Islaam, or indeed anyone from Ahlus Sunnah. Rather this saying was one that was rejected by the Imaams and they declared the unbelief of the ones that held to it, as is mentioned in ‘as-Sunnah’ of Abdullaah ibn Ahmad ibn Hanbal reporting from Khaarijah bin Musab that he said, "I declare the Jahmiyyah to be unbelievers due to three verses from the Book of Allaah, Azza wa Jall, ‘its (Paradise) provision and food is eternal’ and they say it will end. ‘Verily this is Our provision which will never finish’, and they say they will*. ‘Whatever is with you will pass away, and what is with Allaah will remain’*"…
2) As for the saying that the Hellfire is eternal, then Shaykh al-Islaam said, "there are two famous opinions from the Salaf and Khalaf and this difference is known to exist amongst the Taabi`een." I say: and here are seven opinions on this:
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1. That the one entering it will never leave, this being the saying of the Khawaarij and Mu`tazila.
That it’s inhabitants will be punished for a time but then this punishment will be changed for them and they will live in a normal manner, gaining pleasure from the Fire, due to its being in conformity to their nature. This is the saying of the Imaam of the Ittihaadiyyah (anthropomorphists) ibn Arabee at-Taa`ee…
That its inhabitants will be punished for a time, then they will be removed from it, and another creation placed in Hell. This opinion was one that the Jews related to the Messenger (SAW) and he declared them liars due to it as did Allaah by saying, "and they (the Jews) say: the Fire will not touch us but for a few days. Say: have you taken a covenant from Allaah, so that Allaah will not break His Covenant? Or is it that you say of Allaah what you know not. And those who believe and do righteous deeds, they are dwellers of Paradise, they will dwell therein forever." This saying is then the saying of the enemies of Allaah, the Jews, and they are the shaykhs of its proponents. The Quraan, Sunnah, and the consensus of the Sahaabah and the Taabieen and the Imaams indicate this opinions invalidity. Allaah says, ‘and they will not leave it’….
That its inhabitants will leave it and the Fire will remain, being empty, this is related by Shaykh al-Islaam (ibn Taymiyyah). And this opinion is also refuted by the Qur’aan and Sunnah as has preceded.
That it will come to an end due to its being created. It is impossible for anything that is created to remain forever, this is the saying of Jahm bin Safwaan, and he does not distinguish in this between the Fire and Paradise.
That its inhabitants will die and lose movement and remain in there as inanimate things, and they will not be affected by pain. This is the saying of Abu al-Hudhail al-Alaaf, the Imaam of the Mu`tazila, and in this ruling he does distinguish between Paradise and Hell.
That its Creator and Lord will cause it to come to an end, for He has given it a limited period.
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Shaykh al-Islaam said, "this (last) saying was related from Umar, ibn Masud, Abu Hurayrah, Abu Saeed and others." Abd bin Humaid related - and he is from the most noble of the scholars of hadeeth - in his famous tafseer, ‘Sulaymaan bin Harb reported to us, from Salma, from Thaabit from Hasan who said, "Umar said: if the people of Hell were to remain in the Fire to the extent of the stones in a mountain there would be a day that they would leave it."’
And he said, ‘Hajaaj bin Minhaal, from Hammaad bin Salma, from Humaid from Hasan that Umar bin al-Khattaab said, "if the People of the Fire were to remain in the Fire to the extent of the stones in a mountain there would be a day that they would leave it.’" He mentioned this in the tafseer of His saying*, "they will stay in there for periods"* (Naba`a: 23).
So Abd, who is from the Imaams of the Huffaadh and scholars of Sunnah relates from these two noble personalities: Sulaymaan bin Harb and Hajjaaj bin Minhaal, who in turn narrate from Hammad bin Salma, and he narrates from Thaabit and Humaid, and these two from Hasan. And this is sufficient to show the excellence of this isnaad.
And Hasan, even if he did not hear anything from Umar, relates this also from some of the Taabi`een. If this was not authentic from Umar, according to him, then why did he narrate it and designate his narration with certainty by saying, "Umar said"? And why did those Imaams narrate it from him without rejection or refutation when it is known that they rejected anything that contradicted the Sunnah and refuted matters less than this? So if this saying was from those that contradicted the Qur’aan and Sunnah and ijmaa of the Imaams then they would have been the first to reject it.
There is no doubt that the one who sticks to this opinion of Umar, and narrates it from him** means a portion/type of the inhabitants of the Fire.** For the people (i.e. Muslims) that are punished due to their sins, then these people would leave it and they would not stay in it the extent of the stones in a mountain. And the word, ‘People of the Fire’ is not specific to the believers in the Oneness of Allaah, rather it is specific to their enemies, as the Prophet (SAW) said*, "as for the People of the Fire who are it’s inhabitants, then they will neither live or die in their."* [Saheeh Muslim]What has preceded does not contradict His saying, ‘they will remain in their forever’ and His saying, ‘and they will never leave it’."…
…Ibn Mas`ud said, "there will come a time in which there will be no-one in the Fire and that is after they have remained in there for periods." The likes of this is related from Abu Hurayrah, both being reported by al-Baghawee in his tafseer. Then he says after this, "and the meaning of these according to Ahlus Sunnah, if they are established, is that no one of the People of faith will remain in there."…." ‘al-Haadee al-Arwaah’ (pp. 429 +)]
So with this it is clear that both ibn Taymiyyah and his student did not hold the Hellfire to come to an end or that the punishment would cease for the unbelievers. Were it not for the fear of lengthening the discussion beyond what is necessary, we would quote from the tafseer of ibn Taymiyyah in which he makes clear that certain types of people would remain in the Hellfire forever, for example, Pharaoh.
and jus to put the spice it up abit-
Ibn Hajr al-Asqalaanee said, "the shaykh of our shaykhs, al-Haafidh Abu al-Yu`maree (ibn Sayyid an-Naas) said in his biography of ibn Taymiyyah: ‘al-Mizzi encouraged me to express my opinion on Shaykh al-Islaam Taqi ad-Deen. I found him to be from those who had acquired a fortunate of knowledge in the sciences that he had. He used to completely memorise and implement the Sunan and Aathaar (narrations). Should he speak about tafseer then he would carry its flag, and should he pass a fatwa in fiqh then he knew its limits. Should he speak about a hadeeth then he was the companion of its knowledge and fully cognisant of its narrations. Should he give a lecture on Religions and Sects then none was seen who was more comprehensive or meticulous than he, he surpassed his contemporaries in every science, and you would not see one like him, and his own eye did not see one like himself.
Ibn Katheer said, "the least he would do when he heard something was to memorise it and then busy himself with learning it. He was intelligent and had much committed to memory, and he became an Imaam in tafseer and everything linked to it and knowledgeable in fiqh. Indeed it was said he was more knowledgeable of the fiqh of the madhabs then the followers of those very same madhabs in his time and other than his time. He was a scholar in *Usul *and the branches of the religion and grammar and the language and other textual and intellectual sciences…no scholar of a science would speak to him except that he thought that that science was the speciality of ibn Taymiyyah. As for hadeeth then he was the carrier of its flag, a haafidh and able to distinguish the weak from the strong, fully acquainted with the narrators…" [size=1]‘al-Bidaayah wan Nihaayah’ (14/118-119) of ibn Katheer.]
The Imaam of the Hanafees, Badr ad-Deen (Mahmud bin Ahmad) al-`Ainee said, "whosoever says ibn Taymiyyah is a kaafir *the he is in reality himself a *kaafir, and the one who accuses him of heresy is himself a heretic. How is this possible when his works are widely available and there is no hint of deviation or dissension contained therein." ‘Radd al-Waafir’ (pg. 245)]
Hope you enjoy this.
id jus like to remind you, you still hav to comment on my earlier refutations you made, you hav also gta giv me a btr arguement for good bidah and you hav still yet to qoute that hadith abt "whoever starts a good bidah" in its entirety.
thank you brother.
if i missed anything out please let me no n insha-Allah i will b more than happy to refute u on that aswell.
Wasalaamu'Alaykum
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