Bid'ah - Good & Bad (merged)

Society Religion & Philosophy
81

Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.

im sorry i hav to reply again but i think i hav given enuf evidences frm qur'aan and sunnah to refute yr claims and there is no way u can change my opinion which is the opinion of the REAL Alhe sunnah wal jama'ah! can we now move to wahhabism, ibn taymiyyah, yr accusations that "wahhabis" say Allah is a man(in which u declare people as kafir) so i can refute u on them aswell??

i luk 4ward to hearing frm u.

its not for pointscoring. its for enjoining the good and forbiding the Evil which we have been commanded to do.

82

Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.

Dear faisal,

I dont think the idea was to convince you, but to demonstrate a flaw in reasoning. Quoting ahadith that say there is no such thing as good bidah, defining bidah as something that was not practiced by the prophet p and Caliph R, then practicing a way of determing what the Quran says by applying a process that wasnt followed by the caliphs R or the Prophet p and claiming it is not a bidah (good or bad) is illogical. Those who appreciate the importance of reasoning see it as a problem. You have not addressed this issue by quoting any of your ahadith.

regards,

bob

83

Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.

Salaam

ok can u explain why the Prophet(saw) would need to do such things?

Ak Shair....!!!!
84

Qur

This is a relavent question but detracts from my objection. Since, I am not just trying to make points on this board, either. Since, you are polite in your responses, even when we disagree. Since, I sincerely enjoy talking to you. Therefore, I am going to answer it:

He didnt need to write the Quran for himself, since he knew it by heart and the angels could read it to him. Therefore, it was written more for our guidance, than for his. So we can conclude, the prophet did things for us that he thought was important for us, even if he didnt need to do it for himself. Hence, he could have done the same about his sayings. In addition, this still wouldnt explain why the caliphs R didnt write all his saying down in a finite text, to understand the Quran, when they were clearly concerned about preserving the text of the Quran for future generations.

As I had said earler, sometimes people get so passionate about their own faith and critical of the faith of others, that it scares me. Sometimes it is necessary to remind ourselves that the prophet didnt tell anyone to do any of it, shia or sunni or anything else. We are all just trying our best to understand the Quran with our limited human intellect and the words of our scholars. We have sufficent guidance in the Quran and the words of our scholars for a merciful and forgiving Lord of the World to grant us a place in paradise, that is all. Scholar bashing is not a good thing. Some like choclate others like vanilla. It is all ice cream.

regards,

Kaz

85

Re: Qur

you refute your own argument… he didn’t write the Qur’an for himself because, as you say, he already knew it, but he instructed and encouraged others to write it… so the same with hadith… he knew his own hadith (his own statements and actions in effect) but he not only allowed put positively encouraged others to memorise and disseminate them and write them down as they wanted…

86

Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.

The only Bida’a I ever heard of being approved by the Holy Prophet :saw: was when he said, “Sami-Allahu-Liman…” and someone in the back of the Jamaat replied “Rabbana-Wa-Lakkal-Hamd…”

The Holy Prophet :saw: asked who said that, and a Sahaba stood up and said that it was me, then the Holy Prophet :saw: said that a (certain number I can’t remember) of angels rushed to write it down…

Apart from that I know no other Bida’a approved…

And since there is no Holy Prophet :saw: today to approve or disapprove, being afraid of Bida’a is definitely safeguarding one’s Iman…

87

Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.

Asalaamu Alaikum

brother. Allah Calls the Qur'an a Book and the point is it had to b writtin down! i dnt no what yr gettin at. The Prophet Himself told the Sahabah to write down his sayings, teachings and even wen he wud joke. if he did neva write them down how wud he hav spread dawah when sent people to spread islam across arabia? i honestly dnt no what yr gettin at. im here to refute the 1s talkin abt bidah e hasana but they dnt seem to talk much when they are challenged.

Lajawab, if that approved by the Prophet(saw) then it cannot b an innovation. but lets say 4 arguments sake it was approved. atleast they had the Prophet(saw) to approve of such actions or sayings but we dnt. We do not define what is good and bad. only Allah and His messenger(saw) do.

im not arguin wiv u lajawab. Alhamdullilah i undastand what u mean but some people mite read that n start goin more xcited abt bidah hasana!

Bob

you say "Sometimes it is necessary to remind ourselves that the prophet didnt tell anyone to do any of it, shia or sunni or anything else" well if u spk abt writing down his sayings. then he did actually tell us to do it.

88

Re: Qur

Thanks for posting. It encourages people to read the thread from the beginning and figure out for themselves if I am refuting my own argument or not. It really isnt that difficult.

regards,

bob

89

Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.

Dear faisal,

In a prior post you had asked me why would the prophet need to write down all his own sunnah and ahadith in a finite collection:

Jul 26th, 2005 07:54 AMfaisal as salafiSalaam

ok can u explain why the Prophet(saw) would need to do such things?

I was simply showing you that he could have written them all down in a finite text, for the same reasons he wrote down the Quran.

regards,

bob

90

Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.

yeh but he got the Sahaba to write them down for him. with all due respect brother. i dnt c what yr point is.

Why do people here like to use the term Paki so much?
91

Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.

Dear faisal,

Please clarify, are you saying that all the sunnah and ahadith were written down in a finite text by the sahaba in the days of the prophet, just like the Quran?

regards

bob

92

Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.

i dnt no wot u mean by finite but yes they were written down as instructed by the Prophet(saw) is there a problem wiv that?

can u please also tell me what this has to do wiv Bidah?

93

Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.

Who said that “there’s no good bid^ah”?
I wait for references that this is absolutely what the prophet intended and not a general statment.

EX of Good bid^ah is such as putting dots for the letters of the Qur’an.
Read the other examples in the post.

As for ibn Taymiah and wahabisem, they simply claim that Allah is a body sitting on the throne. That is kufur shared with jews and christians.

Islam says: Allah does not resemble the creations.

94

Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.

Wa Alaykum Assalam,

Dear brother Faisal,

Know that salaf are the true followers of the scholars of Islam that lived in the first 300 years after the Prophet. And Wahabies who now use that name are doing so to cover up for their black history.

And know without a doubt that True salaf scholars say opposite of what wahabies say.

Simple proof for that is:
Imam Ahmad says whoever believes Allah is a body commits blasphemy.

Wahabies and Ibn Taymiah Say: Allah is as big as the throne sitting on it.

The true belief is that Allah exists without being in a place or direction, since he existed so eternally.

As for Bid^ah, only wahabies take the hadith of the Prophet that “Kullu” means every single instance.

Where as scholars of Islam, they say Kullu here means most. Why? Because not every single thing done after the prophet is misgudance.

WHo said that:
Imam Shafi^iy, Imam Nawawiy, Ibn Hajar the ultimate hafith and many others from Salaf and Khalaf.

Examples are:
Reading Qur’an with dots was a good innovation not done during the Propet or even Sahahbah. Or 2nd athan and many others.. and Milad is one of them.

Imam Suyooti confirmed that what is done in Milad-un-Nabiy from reciting Qur’an and Praising the Prophet and Briefing about his life (Sallallahuu Alayhi Wa Sallam) is a good and rewardable act.

Allah knows best.

How 'YOU' doin..?
95

Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.

Finite means no more and no less i.e. finite. This is what we have today, a finite text of ahadith, with false sayings attributed to the prophet mixed in that have to be weeded out by analyzing the chains of narration.

We must be able to show from ahadith text that this is what the Caliphs R used or it is innovation and bida. So where is the evidence that the Caliphs R preserved a finite text of the prophet p’s saying leave alone, allowed anyone to mix false saying into it, then showed anyone how to weed them out?

regards,

bob

96

Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.

So how can we know that which Bida’ah is good and which is bad?

And Imam Siyooti “confirmed”…how did he confirm?

97

Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.

Asalaamu'Alaykum brothers?

how hav u all been?

sorry iv been away for some time now. i hope you werent thinkin that iv given up!

insha-Allah in reply to ahmad g i say this:

1stly in response to yr accusation of kufr against Ibn Taymiyyiah i will say this....Ibn Taymiyyah is free of such statements, if you even tried readin his work u will see yrslf that he was a GREAT scholar and Mujahid.

regarding your accusation of kufr Ibn Taymiyyah said

Shaykh al-Islaam said, in the course of this topic, ‘indeed the term al-Jism (body), al-Arad (organs), al-Mutahayyiz (extent) are newly invented terminoligies. We have mentioned many a time before that the Salaf and the Imaams have not spoken about such things - neither by way of negation, nor by way of affirmation. Rather they declared those who spoke about such matter to be innovators, and went to great lengths to censure them.’ This is what has repeatedly been affirmed by Shaykh al-Islaam - may Allaah have mercy on him - in many of his books, such as: ‘Sharh Hadeeth an-Nuzool’ (pp. 69-76), ‘Majmoo’ al-Fataawaa’ (3/306-310, 13/304-305), ‘Minhaaj as-Sunnah an-Nabawiyyah’ (2/134-135, 192, 198-200, 527). Indeed in ‘Sharh Hadeeth an-Nuzool’ Shaykh al-Islaam has labelled ascribing Allaah with the term jism, by saying, ‘an innovation in the Shareeah, a corruption of the language, and a contradiction to the [sound] intellect. Rather it is repudiated by the Shareeah, the language and the [sound] intellect.’

also he said
And from them: Shaykh al-Islaam mentions the intended meaning of ascribing Allaah with the term jism, by saying: ‘whosoever alleges that the Lord is a jism - with the meaning that he accepts division, separation and partition (for Allaah) - then he is the most disbelieving of people and the most ignorant. Indeed, his statement is more evil than the one who says that Allaah has a son - with them meaning that a part of Him split and thus became His son.’"

‘al-Asaalah’ magazine (no.4 pp.54-55), see also his ‘Rudood wat Ta’qubaat’ (pp 21-23) ]

now im sure after readin this 1 wud think, why wud Ibn Taymiiyah call him self a kafir?

you say that "Wahhabis" believe that Allah is Sitting on a throne? Bring your proof! we affirm that Allah is Above his Throne as Allah said in the Qur'aan.

im sure you might hav hear of dr Ramadan Saeed al Bootee. take a look at what he said regarding this:

"and we are amazed when we see the extremists declaring ibn Taymiyyah, may Allaah have mercy upon him, of being an unbeliever. And also at them saying that he was one who held Allaah to be a body (mujassid), and I have studied long and hard as to where I could find a statement or a word from ibn Taymiyyah that he wrote or said which would indicate his holding Allaah to be a body as was quoted from him by as-Subki and others [This is a clear indication from al-Bootee of the injustice done against ibn Taymiyyah by the likes of as-Subki and others], and I have not found anything from him like this. All I found was him saying in his legal rulings, ‘Indeed Allaah has a Hand as He said, and has risen over the Throne as He said, and He has an Eye as He said’"
And he adds to this, " I referred to the last work written by Abu al-Hasan al-Ash`aree, ‘al-Ibaanah’, and I found him saying exactly what ibn Taymiyyah said [on the issue of the Names and Attributes of Allah]…" ‘Nadwa Ittjaahaat al-Fiqr al-Islaamee’ (pp 264-265) of al-Bootee.]

if you dont know Dr Ramadan then go find out.

u also said
"As for Bid^ah, only wahabies take the hadith of the Prophet that "Kullu" means every single instance"

brother u make me laff! seriously yr a funny guy! eva thought of becomin a comedian?

if u refer to arabs they themselves will tell u what it means.
al the scholar who wrote abt bidah KNOW that KULLU means EVERY! so dnt bring forth childish statments! cos yr only fooling yrslf!
Infact brother yrstrdy i was at a unity convention n i rmbr a sufi scholar saying "kullu" on some other topic n he translated it to b "every"!

so lets get this straight "every innovation is misguidance" Alhamdullilah!

regarind your sayin that imam Shafi and Nawawi said that. then bring forth yr evidence and please dont misqoute anythin like u misqouted the hadith abt the "good Bidah" which u still need to clarify and tell me what the real hadith states brother! i no already what it states. i want YOU to tell me what it states so i can Insha-Allah correct it.

Brother Bob.

in reply to u lemme jus ask you, what io your view on bidah? i hav said a bidah is making a new form of worship in Islam or a way of gettin closer to Allah which has not been presribed by Allah or his messenger(Saw). we dnt call wot yr on abt a bidah!!

98

Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.

How to know?
If the innovation complies with Qur’an and teachings of the Prophet, its’ good bid^ah.

Ex: reading qur’an with dots. Using Mihrab. Doing the second athan that was made by master Uthman.. and Milad-un-Nabiy.

Celebrations of the Prophet’s birth (Mawlid un-Nabiyy) is among the great innovations of guidance. This event is commemorated by Muslims all over the world who join together for such rewardable deeds as reciting from the Qur’an, chanting Islamic praises, telling the story of the Prophet’s birth, teaching Religious Knowledge, slaughtering animals to feed to the poor, and gathering to thank and praise Allah and ask Him to exalt the honor of Prophet Muhammad, sallallahu^alayhi wa sallam. The honorable, knowledgeable, and righteous ruler: al-Mudhaffar, the King of Irbil, initiated this practice about 900 years ago, and he was praised by Muslim scholars of Islam–among them the Egyptian hafidhs: Ibn Hajar al-^Asqalaniyy and Jalal ud-Din as-Suyutiyy. The famous scholar of hadith, Abul-Khattab Ibn Dihyah, wrote a book for the king especially to be read during the mawlid celebration, and there are no great Muslim scholars who dispraised this innovated celebration.

However, wahabies do not consider Suyooti, or Ibn Hajar, or Bayhaqiy as good scholars. This is a secret they hide, ask them would you accept to abide by the creeds of imam Bayhaqiy? Suyooti? or Ibn Hajar?

Or even ask them do you accept to abide by the creed of imam Tahawiy (who was the head of the Salaf in his time, following hanafiy school) ??

I shall await for the answer.

Allah knows best.

99

Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.

Ok.

Let’s see a good example that will teach you what Kullu means:

Prophet Muhammad Sallalahu ^alayhi wa sallam Said in a different hadith:

It is apparent Muslims have not gone astray in celebrating the birth of the Prophet, based upon the aforementioned hadith, because the deeds practiced during this event are considered rewardable by the standards of the Religion, and in line with the definition of innovations of guidance. Unfortunately, there are some people who misinterpret a sahih hadith related by Abu Dawud: “كل بدعة ضلالة”

which means: <> Those who are misguided interpret the word (kul) as `every’ and thus claim this hadith means: "Every innovation is an innovation of misguidance. Their claim is unfounded for two reasons.

**Linguistically, this hadith is similar to the hadith related by al-Bayhaqiyy: “كل عين زانية”

Which clearly does not mean: “Every eye gazes the look of the adulterer;” rather, “Most people are guilty of the forbidden look.” The person blind since birth would surely not have the forbidden look, and it is known the Prophets would never commit such an abject sin. The word “كل” (kul) as used in both hadiths refers to `most,’ although it can mean “every” it does not mean this in all cases.
**

As a matter of fact, in the explanation of Sahih Muslim, an-Nawawiyy said: "The saying of the Prophet, sallallahu ^alayhi wa sallam, «كل بدعة ضلالة» is among the terms which are: “عام مخصوص” (^am makhsus) i.e., a general statement giving a specific meaning; which is a known field in Islam, and the meaning of the hadith is “most innovations are innovations of misguidance.”

This field the"عام مخصوص" is seen in the Qur’an in Ayah 3 of Surat al-Ahqaf: تدمر كل شىء] which means the wind Allah sent as punishment to the people of ^Ad demolished most of the things.

To accept the meaning: “Every innovation is an innovation of misguidance,” as the meaning of the sahih hadith related by Abu Dawud would negate the sahih hadith related by Imam Muslim which specifies two types of innovations: the innovations of guidance and the innovations of misguidance. In the rules of the Religion it is not permissible to interpret two sahih hadiths in contradiction to one another, therefore we know the true meaning.

I ask Allah to protect us from speaking without knowledge, and I ask Allah to guide us to the truth and keep us steadfast on it, ameen.

100

Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.

You claimed "no such thing as good bid^ah". You made a mistake ignorantly.

Although **most innovations **are innovations of misguidance, there are numerous examples of Religiously acceptable innovations.

During the Caliphate of ^Umar Ibnul Khattab, ^Umar initiated the gathering of people in Ramadan to pray the Tarawih Prayer in congregation. When he saw the people performing this prayer in congregation he said:

نِعْمَت البِدعَةُ هَذِه"ِ"
"What a good innovation that is!"

The high status of ^Umar Ibnul Khattab is known, thus it is important to point out ^Umar used the explicit term البِدعَةُ "innovation" in his praise. If all innovations were misguided--as some claim--^Umar would not have innovated this practice, nor expressed this praise, yet both al-Bukhariyy and Muslim related this incident. During the era of the followers of the Companions of the Prophet, another praise-worthy innovation took place. Initially, letters like the ba, ta, tha, and ya, did not have dots above or below them. This practice of distinguishing between the letters by using this notation began after the time of the Prophet.