Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
yes, i fail to see your line of reasoning… if the Prophet (saw) allowed his hadith to be written, memorised and disseminated what difference does it make whether they were then later collected in one book, ten books or a thousand books or written in red or blue ink?.. maybe you can choose a better example
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
people who believe in the concept of "Bidah Hasan" i ask you... is what The Prophet(saw) given you not sufficient?
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
Thanks for sharing.
regards,
bob
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
Well, neither the prophet p nor the caliphs R gave us a written finite text of all the sayings of the Prophet p that included false statements attributed to him nor the method of examining chains of narration for weeding them. So instead of asking those who believe in bidah hasan, please tell us, wasnt what the prophet and the caliphs R gave sufficent?
regards
bob
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
yeh it was my brother. now if u wanna tell Imam bukhari, muslim, ibn majah, tirmirdhee, nasaai, malik and the rest that they were wrong for going out for the sake of Allah and our sakes so we wudnt hav to stress on finding out what the Prophet(saw) diod or said in his life and for compiling the hadiths in2 one book then you go ahead and do that on Qiyamah.
why dont you tell me what they shud have done?
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
btw brother. i think yr still confused abt the whole Bidah issue. like i said lets work at the foundations 1st b4 we start lukin at particular subjects!
i.e wen i debate wiv christians abt there belief n they giv me ref from the bible, i say lets start at the foundations. yr book is it unique or not. if it isnt then there is no point in talking.
same with this convo. go n study if a bidah can b good.
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
Dear faisal,
As you can see from my previous posts, I dont think they did anything wrong. Then again, I am not defining bidaa as narrowly as you.
regards,
bob
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
ok brother it seems we're goin arnd in circles. why dnt u define the concept of bidah to me wiv authentif references n saying of the imaams of the past n jus yr on loigic. n i will insha-Allah define the real concept of bidah n we can end there!
i luk 4ward to hearin frm u.
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
I “ended” my conversation? Where? Which thread?
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
Dear faisal,
I think the burrden is on you to prove that the caliphs had assembled a finite text of all the sayings and doings of the prophet, including those that were falsely attributed to him. That they had taught the science of how to examine chains of narration. I have already shown you that no such references exist in the hadith text.
regards,
bob
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
^ i think the burden is on you to come up with a better example... this one doesn't fit the bill
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
Brother BOB!
this discussion was abt good bidah and bad bidah! so b4 we start giving examples of events. i want you to tell me concept of Good Bidah with authentic references frm the qur'an, sunnah n ijma of the Salaf and not your desires!
the Burden will always be upon you brother.
the Prophet(saw) said in an AUTHENTIC hadith
"whosoever Allah(swt) wants good for he gives them Understanding of religion"
i dnt think you quite understand Bidah!
so please please answer my question n giv me guidance on Good Bidah! i want to no abt it. i want to celebrate Milad and all other good bidah's but i want proof of good bidah!
i will b waiting patiently!
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
I gave you an example of a good bidah. The fact that the caliphs R and Prophet p didnt collect a finte text of the sayings of the prophet, add statements falsey attributed to him and show us how to weed them out by looking at the chains of narration makes it bidah by YOUR definition. Since you are practicing this method in your religion it would have to be a good bidah or your definition of bidah is wrong.
regards,
bob
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
This is a great example. By your definition of bidah, anything that wasnt practiced by the Caliphs R and the prophet in religion is bidah. Therefore, I asked, why dont you show us where the prophet and the Caliphs R assembed all the sayings of the prophet in a finite text, added statements falsely attributed to him to that text and showed anyone how to weed them out by studying any chains of narration?
regards,
bob
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
salaam Bob
1stly this is a LIE. i have neva said this is a Bidah.
2ndly a Bidah is a newform of Worship which has not been prescribed by Allah or His messengher(saw) whic i hav said many times! is collecting hadith a form of worship?? im sure u no the answer to that brother. its ok to say its a good thing they did to cellect the sdayings of our Prophet(saw) but to say its a good Bidah?? no way jose!
3rdly you say “Since YOU are practicing this method in YOUR religion it would have to be a good bidah or your definition of bidah is wrong!”
MY religion is that of the Prophet(saw) n his Companions were upon. obviously this is not yr religion!
what part of “bidah is anythin new in worship” dnt u understand and i will try n get a “dummy’s guide to bidah” 4u.
Your arguements r baseless and also without authentic references frm Qur’aan or Sunnah to support yr arguements!
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
in your mistaken opinion…
I haven’t given a definition, and neither it would seem have you… your chosen example probably fails irrespective of the definition
they allowed it to be done… that they did pulls the legs right out from under your argument… the fact that the Prophet (s) didn’t himself sit down with paper and paper is irrelevant… his sunnah is not just what he personally did, it includes also those things he allowed and encouraged others to do including recording and disseminating his hadith… the permission was general… you are trying to restrict it
verifying reports is a Qur’anic principle…
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
There are innovations that comply with the religion and those are permissible. Examples of the good innovations include doing Al Mawlid, celebration of the birth of the Prophet, and praying taraweeh in a group, or having the dots in Al Quran - a dot under the ba, dot above the Fa` letters.
None of these were done on the time of the Prophet Sallallahu ^alayhy wasallam.
As Ashafi^yy said, Bid^a (innovations) is two types: one that opposes Al Quran and Sunnah, and one that complies and agrees with Quran and Sunnah.
This is the ^aqidah of the true Muslims and true followers of Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu ^alayhi wasallam.
We ask Allah to keep us and you steadfast on this ^aqidah ameen.
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
Asalaamu Alaikum
Brother Ahmad G! where hav u been? iv been waitin along time for u.
Alhamdullilah u r now here.
in response to your message. i can tell you that Mawlid is not a good bidah i hav sed many tiomes there is NO such thing as a GOOD bidah! The Prophet(saw) said " every innovation is misguidance" so where do the good 1s come frm?
also innovations r in the field of worship since when r the letters or dots in the Qur'aan becoming acts of worship.
i suggest u read the seerah of The Prophet(saw) because when you do u will see that the Prophet(saw) himself prayed the Taraweeh in a group. so how can sumthin the Prophet(saw) did become an innovation?
you say that imaam as shafi(rh) spoke to abt good bidah. could you please prvide references as i believe u hav intepreted what he said wrongly. jus like you intepreted the so called "whoever starts of a good bidah" hadith. i will ask you nicely to write out the full hadith n the context cos u r misleading people.
i will b awaiting you reply. i also challenge you to an open discussion on the issue of bidah, "wahhabism", Ibn taymiyyah, Athropomorphism and others! i hav read many of yr threads and SUBHAN-ALLAH you have accused many of kufr!
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
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Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
Asalaamu Alaikum
hmmm no reply as of yet. well il let u look at these statements to in regards to "good" bidah-
Abdullaah ibn Umar (RA) states, "every innovation is misguidance, even if the people regard it as GOOD." (ad-Daarimee)
Mu'aadh bin Jabal (RA) used to say, whenever he sat in a circle of knowledge, "and I warn you of what is innovated, for all that is innovated is misguidance" [ash-Sharee'ah pg.55, also Abu Dawood with similar wording]
Abdullaah ibn Mas'ud (RA) said, "follow the sunnah of Muhammad and do not innovate, for what you have been commanded is enough for you." [ad-Daarimee]
Hudhayfah bin al-Yaman said, "every act of worship that the Companions did not do, do not do it" [Abu Dawood]
Is this not enough? That the Companions tell us to follow the way of Muhammad (SAW) and not to make up new ways of worship?
"whomsoever Allaah guides to the truth, none can misguide him, and whomsoever Allaah misguides, none can guide"! [Muslim]
also lets put some icing to the cake with some sayongs from our respected Imaams-
Imaam Abu Haneefah said, "stick to the narrations and the way of the salaf, and beware of the newly invented matters for all of it is innovation" [Sawnul Muntaq of as-Suyutee pg.32]
Imaam Maalik said, "he who innovates an innovation in Islaam regarding it as something good, has claimed that Muhammad (SAW) has betrayed his trust to deliver the message as Allaah says, 'this day have I perfected for you your religion'. And whatsoever was not part of the religion then, is not part of the religion today." [al-I'tisaam]
He also said, "how evil are the People of Innovation, we do not give them salaam" [al-Ibaanah of ibn Battah (d.387) no.441]
Imaam Ahmad said, "the fundamental principles of the sunnah with us are:.avoiding innovations and every innovation is misguidance" [Usul as-Sunnah of Imaam Ahmad pg.1]
As for the narrations from Imaam ash-Shaafi'ee in which he categorises bid'ah into two, then it is weak as all of it's chains of narrations depend upon unknown narrators. [al-Bid'ah of Shaykh Saleem al-Hilaalee, al-Masaabeeh fee Salaatit Taraaweeh of as-Suyutee with Alee Hasans footnotes]. Not only this but in his risalah he rejects the concept of istihsaan because 'the person doing so has legislated in the sharee'ah' i.e. without permission from Allaah.
Imaam Bukhaaree said, "I have met more than a thousand scholars.(then he mentioned the names of the more prominent in each of the lands that he travelled in) and I found that they all agreed on the following points: they all used to prohibit bid'ah - that which the Prophet and his Companions were not upon, because of the saying of Allaah, 'and hold fast to the rope of Allaah and do not separate'" [Imaam Bukhaaree's article on belief as quoted in Sharh Usul I'tiqaad 1/170. From amongst the scholars he met were: Ahmad bin Hanbal, Abu Ubaid al-Qaasim, ibn Ma'een, ibn Aasim, ibn Abee Shaybah.]
What I have narrated here is just a small number of the many narrations that I have in front of me from various books, I have tried to quote as best to my ability only authentic narrations, and Allaah knows best. It is good to know that the early Imaams were prolific in writing and warning against bid'ah, and even today we have a number of books from them dealing just with this topic. Amongst them: al-Bid'ah of al-Qarnushi, al-Bid'ah of ibn Waddah, al-I'tisaam of ash-Shaatibee and many more.
So once this topic becomes clear, a truth that none can deny, then know that all these innovations in the religions are a clear denial of the above mentioned verses and ahaadeeth, for none were done by the Companions.
So I leave you with the hadeeth of the Prophet (SAW), "so he who follows my sunnah has been guided, and he who follows the innovations has been destroyed." (Ahmad)
And our Lord the Most High is the One that guides to attaining the truth.
if you want brother i can giv u info n leaflets on the concept of bidah and what exactly is a bidah. many people talk abt bidah as if its a small topic but it isnt.
its amazing i hav to giv the sayings of the imaams when clearly the Saying of Prophet Muhammad(saw) shud b enuff for us.
In this regard the Prophet (SAW) said, "I warn you of the newly invented matters (in the religion),and every newly invented matter is an innovation, and every innovation is misguidance, and every misguidance is in the Hellfire" (an-Nasaa'ee)
And he (SAW) used to say at the beginning of his lectures, "and the best speech is the Speech of Allah, and the best guidance is the guidance of Muhammad (SAW), and the worst of all affairs are the newly invented matters (in the religion)" (Muslim)
And he (SAW) commanded us, "whosoever does an action which we have not commanded then it must be rejected." (Muslim)
And again, "whosoever introduces into this religion of ours that which is not part of it then it must be rejected" (Ahmad)
'And in this hadeeth is a clear evidence that every action which is not legislated in the sharee'ah must be rejected' [Jaami al-Ulum of ibn Rajab 1/120]
So every bid'ah that is introduced in the religion has to be rejected because only Allaah and His Messenger (SAW) have the right to legislate in the sharee'ah of Islaam.
Hence in the light of what has preceded we can now give the formal sharee'ah definition of bid'ah:
"a newly invented way (in beliefs and actions) in the religion, in imitation of the Sharee'ah, by which nearness to Allaah is sought, not being supported by any authentic proof, neither in it's foundations nor in the manner in which it is performed." [al-I'tisaam 1/231 of ash-Shaatibee]
hope you find this useful. and insha-Allah if u do hav answer make sure you qoute from qur'aan and sunnah and not yr whims n desires as i will not reply to yr whims and desires.
i spk only qur'aan and sunnah n listen to only qur'aan and sunnah!