[quote]
Originally posted:
**
( : "Åä Çááå áÇ íÌãÚ ÃãÊí Úáì ÖáÇáÉ ¡ æíÏ Çááå Úáì ÇáÌãÇÚÉ ¡ æãä ÔÐ ÔÐ Ýí ÇáäÇÑ" (ÑæÇå ÇáÊÑãÐí)
PROPHET MUHAMMAD SAID: "MY NATION DOES NOT UNANIMOUSLY GO ASTRAY"
THE HADITH WAS RELATED BY IMAM TIRMITHI IN SUNAN AT-TIRMITHI BOOK: "AL-FITAN" BAB: WHAT WAS NARRATED ABOUT FOLLOWING THE MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS.
Óää ÇáÊÑãÐí (ßÊÇÈ ÇáÝÊä) Ü ÈÇÈ ãÇ ÌÇÁ Ýí áÒæã ÇáÌãÇÚÉ
**
[/quote]
ALLAH KNOWS BEST.
[This message has been edited by Ahmad G (edited January 24, 2002).]
ALLAHU KNOWS BEST
END OF THREAD
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
[quote=“Ahmad G”]
Imam Muslim related, through the route of Jarir Ibn ^Abdullah, the Prophet said:
which means: <> There are two types of innovations mentioned in this hadith: the innovations of guidance and the innovations of misguidance.
masha-Allah a gud hadith posted by brother Ahmad g. now brother cud u please giv the full story behind the hadith. wot is the context off it? why did the Prophet say that? i will b waitin yr reply brother Ahmad.
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
brother Ahmad i want u 2 debate wiv me over this bidah issue. we'll go thru evrythin u have sed!
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
Subhan-Allah, im gna enjoy talkin to brother Ahmad G. he has sed alot of things which have been taken out of context n i will b happy to correct him in the lite of qur'an and sunnah!
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
When did the Prophet p teach or practice the science of compiling all his sayings in a finite collection including some statements that he didnt make, then analyze chains of narration to determine which is right and which is wrong? Wasnt this a good innovation by sincere scholars?
regards,
bob
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
Asalaamu Alaikum
brother b4 we start talkin abt wetha such n such is a bidah "hasana" we have to start at the foundations. we have to define what a bidah is and wetha it can b good or bad.
A. Bid’ah.
1. Definition of bid’ah.
Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “According to sharee’ah, the definition is ‘Worshipping Allaah in ways that Allaah has not prescribed.’ If you wish you may say, ‘Worshipping Allaah in ways that are not those of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) or his rightly guided successors (al-khulafaa’ al-raashidoon).’”
The first definition is taken from the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):
“Or have they partners with Allaah (false gods) who have instituted for them a religion which Allaah has not ordained?” [al-Shooraa 42:21]
The second definition is taken from the hadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), who said:
“I urge you to adhere to my way (Sunnah) and the way of the rightly-guided successors (al-khulafa’ al-raashidoon) who come after me. Hold fast to it and bite onto it with your eyeteeth *, and beware of newly-invented matters.”
So everyone who worships Allaah in a manner that Allaah has not prescribed or in a manner that is not in accordance with the way of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) or his rightly-guided successors (al-khulafa’ al-raashidoon), is an innovator, whether that innovated worship has to do with the names and attributes of Allaah, or to do with His rulings and laws.
And there is no such thing in Islam as bid’ah hasanah (good innovation).”
now the question you put forward was wetha the Prophet(saw) taught us 2 compile hadith which her didnt but he told the Sahabah(ra) to write down evrythin he did, even wen he wud tell a joke. how could we possibly no what the Prophet(saw) did in his life if people neva compiled and related them too us? the reason we have chains off narrations is for the benefit of us knowing wetha a hadith is saheeh or not. wud u follow a hadith that you know does not go back to the Prophet(saw)? that is the reason for them compiling these ahadith for us so we know what to take and what not to take.
iv had some people say to me "isnt compiling the Qur'aan a bidah then?"
well its quite simple.....the Prophet(saw) said
"i urge you to adhere to my way (Sunnah) and the way of the rightly-guided successors (al-khulafa’ al-raashidoon) who come after me. Hold fast to it and bite onto it with your eyeteeth *, and beware of newly-invented matters.”
so this was a sunnah of abu bakr(ra).
also Allah is the qur'aan calls the qur'aan a "book".
hope iv answered yr question.
Wasalaam brother!**
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
Using your defintion of bidah, it appears compiling the Quran would be okay. However, where did the prophet or the Caliph Rashidun order anyone to compile a finite text of all the sayings of the Prophet p and mix false statements attributed to him into it? Also, when did any of them teach us the science of reading chains of narration to weed out the false? The fact that these chains of indirect testimony reach down to people that existed after the death of the caliphs R and there are false statements attributed to the prophet in them, is proof that these finite texts had not been formally compiled in the days of our caliphs R.
Now I am not saying they shouldnt have done it. I am happy they did it to keep up with the times. I am just surprized by your definition of bidah. Are you by any chance advocating against the use of the hadith text and the study of chains of narration?
regards,
bob*
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
encouragement and permission to write, memorise and disseminate his statements comes from the Prophet (saw) himself…
the principle of verifying one’s source is Qur’anic… see Surah al Hujurat…
and since it is obligatory to obey the Prophet (saw) and to do that we need to know what he said and ordered it follows that the methods employed to arrive at what he said and ordered cannot be classed as innovation but rather an indispensable necessity…
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
By salafi’s defintion of bidah, all practices in religion that were not used or taught by the Prophet p and the Caliphs R are bidah. Furthermore, according to salafi, bidah is never good. You seem to be saying that indispensible necessities can lead to the development of new practices and methods for understanding the Quran after the death of the prophet p and caliphs R and not be considered bidah. For example developing a finite text containing both true and false statements attributed to the prophet p and methods of separating them using a science for studying the chains of narration, to understand the Quran, that was neither developed by the Prophet p or the Caliphs R. So take it up with salafi and ask him to contract the definition of bidah for you. I am simply making an observation.
regards,
bob
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
Asalaamu Alaikum brother
in response to your question, i can say that The Prophet(saw) told his companions to write down all of his teachings. even when he would joke. the chains of narrations were done by the collecter of hadith for our benefit to distinguish between the weak, fabricated and the authentic. jus to let you know the Prophet(saw) said "whosoever lies about me, let him take his seat in the hellfire" reported by bukhari muslim and other. this hadith has the most chains of narrations. also the people who studied chains of narrations did not take it as an act of worship. they were not doing it to get reward. they were doing it for our sake bcos the Prophewt(saw) told us not take take any fabrications. regarding what you said abt me saying "bidah is never good" its not just me who said this. imaam malik said this so did some others but i insha-Allah will giv u the info on that soon bcos i do not want to misqoute anythin as i will b sinned for such actions.
rmbr brother the Prophet(saw) said "every innovation is misguidance" not "some innovations"
sufyaan at thawree said " innovations are more dear to shaytaan because when one sins he knows he is sinning but when commits innovation he thinks he's doin good but in reality is sinning"
(al laalikaa'ee-sharh usool i'tiqadahlis sunnah wa jama'ah(no 238))
hope this is ok for u
i gta get home now cos im at work but i hope to hear from u again regarding this important matter insha-Allah i hope we can both educate each other.
Waslaamu Alaikum
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
please do take it up with salafi yourself if you have any questions for him…
there’s nothing innovatory about recording the Prophet’s (saw) statements/actions (he himself allowed and encouraged it), and neither is there anything new about verifying the narrators who report traditions… this is a Qur’anic principle… so whilst your initial question - (“When did the Prophet p teach or practice the science of compiling all his sayings”) - is interesting for other reasons, it actually misses the point and proves nothing for or against innovations from what i can see
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
Even if he had said, “write all of my teachings”, it is one thing for him to allow people to write his teachings and quite another to claim this was not just a license for us to write them, but a commandment to compile a finite text, mix false statements attributed to him into it and then apply a method for weeding out what he didnt say by examining the chains narrations, as the only way to understand the Quran. Do we have any records of the Caliphs R ordering anyone to compile a finite mixed compilation of all the sayings of the prophet? Even the authors of hadith text, themselves, dont refer back to a single compiled source from the days of the Caliph R.
Like gupguppy said, there was a necessity (the sahaba were dying and there was much confusion regarding what he had said) so sincere scholars decided to fill it by compiling these texts and developing study of the chains.
regards,
bob
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
Asalaamu Alaikum brother Bob
hope you are in good health and high emaan.
To be honest i dont no where this convo is goin. u asked wetha any of the Khalif(ra) ordered any1 to compile the hadith. i will insha-Allah check this for u but i believe the Prophet (Saw) saying "whosoever lies about me, let him take his seat in the hellfire" (reported by bukhari muslim and other) is enough for any muslim. that was on order from him(saw) to us. like i said b4, this is not Bid'ah brother rather its us going with The prophets (saw) command. The compilation can save us from alot and Alhamdullilah it has saved us from alot. it can also save us from the fire of Hell thanks to the ones who went around searchin hadiths for us.
jus rmbr brother it is not a bidah. infact its obligatory!
i hope you can undastand this now.
Wasalaam!
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
Dear Faisal,
I made a simple observation that, Islamic history doesnt suggest that caliphs R instructed anyone to compile a finite text of all the sayings of the prophet, that also contained statements falsely attributed to him (identical to the texts we have today) and employed a method of studying chains of narration to weed them out. So, if you want a reasonable person to believe that compiling hadith in such a form is not bidah (by your definition), you would need to prove that this method of understanding the Quran was employed by the Caliphs R and the Prophet p. Otherwise, you could change your definition of bidah or admit these haidith are a good bidah (hasana). There isnt any reasonable third option, that I can see. You cannot, I think, reasonably, claim that practices that werent done by the Caliphs in religion are bidah and also claim that the present method of studying the hadith text is not bidah, without proving that the Caliphs R practiced it.
So, where is this conversation going? I would hope this conversation is moving towards why people need to show humility and tolerance in faith and not be fanatics.
regards,
bob
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
Asalaamu Alaikum
brother Bob. i dnt think u quite understand the concept of Bid'ah. im quite sure that when the Prophet(saw) said "every innovation is misguidance" he means "every". Here we have The Prophet(saw) saying "every innovation" and along come some people claimin some acts to b good innovations. for you to say there is sumthin known as a "bidah Hasana" you need to bring me evidence to say there is sumthin known as "good bidah". brother do some research on bidah n come bak to me. many people hav refuted the claims of "bidah-e-hasana""!!
Also brother. i practise Islam wiv complete submission to Allah and His Messenger(saw) i undastand the concept of bidah. for u to turn arnd n say i am a "fanatic" is quite a gross accusation towards me.
yr arguement is childish but insha-Allah do yr research n b sincere.
try researchin abt what Imam malik n the other imaams(rh) said abt "bidah hasana" and how they made sure that the hadiths they collected were good to take.
Wasalaam!
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
Dear Faisal,
I am sorry I didnt mean to make you think you were a fanatic. Perhaps if you posted the ahadith and traditions, without calling me childish, that suggest Caliphs R assembled all the sayings of the prophet including those that were falsely attributed to him in a finite text in their life times and showed us how to weed them out using chains of narration, we can end this debate.
regards,
bob
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
Firstly, we should know what “bid’ah” means according to Islamic teaching.
It is defined as: any invented way in religion that is aimed at worshipping or drawing closer to Allaah. This means anything that is not referred to specifically in Sharee’ah, and for which there is no evidence (daleel) in the Qur’aan or Sunnah, and which was not known at the time of the Prophet
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(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and his Companions. At the same time, it is quite obvious that this definition of religious inventions or innovations, which are condemned, does not include worldly inventions [such as cars and washing machines, etc. - Translator].
If your confusion has to do with an apparent contradiction between the hadeeth narrated by Abu Hurayrah and the hadeeth narrated by Jareer ibn 'Abdullaah, then let us examine these two reports and find out what they mean:
Jareer ibn 'Abdullaah al-Bajali (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: "The Messenger of Allaah
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(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Whoever starts a good thing and is followed by others, will have his own reward and a reward equal to that of those who follow him, without it detracting from their reward in any way. Whoever starts a bad thing and is followed by others, will bear the burden of his own sin and a burden equal to that of those who follow him, without it detracting from their burden in any way.’" (Reported by al-Tirmidhi, no. 2675. He said, This is a saheeh hasan hadeeth)
There is a story behind this hadeeth, which will explain what “whoever starts a good thing” means. Imaam Muslim reported this story from Jareer ibn 'Abdullaah, who also narrated the hadeeth itself. He said: "Some people from the Bedouin came to the Messenger of Allaah
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(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), wearing woollen garments. He saw that they were in bad shape and in desperate need, so he urged the people to give them charity. They people were very slow to respond, and it could be seen in his face (that he was upset). Then a man of the Ansaar brought a package of silver, then another came, and another and another, and his face was filled with joy. The Messenger of Allaah
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(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Whoever starts a good thing in Islam, and others do likewise after him, there will be written for him a reward like that of those who followed him, without it detracting in the least from their reward. Whoever starts a bad thing in Islam, and others do likewise after him, there will be written for him a burden of sin like that of those who followed him, without it detracting in the least from their burden.’" (Reported by Muslim, no. 1017)
Further explanation may be found in a report recorded by al-Nisaa’i, also from Jareer ibn 'Abdullah, may Allaah be pleased with him, who said: "We were with the Messenger of Allaah
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(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) early one day, when some people who were almost naked (not dressed properly) and barefoot, with their swords by their sides, came to him. Most, if not all of them, were of (the tribe of) Mudar. The Messenger’s face changed when he saw how poor they were (i.e., he became upset). He went into (his house), then he came out and ordered Bilaal to give the call to prayer. He led the people in prayer, then he addressed them, saying: ‘O people, “be dutiful to your Lord, Who created you from a single person, and from him He created his wife, and from them both he created many men and women, and fear Allaah through Whom you demand your mutual (rights), and (do not cut the relations of) the wombs (kinship)” [al-Nisaa’ 4:1].
“Fear Allaah, and keep your duty to Him. And let every person look to what he has sent forth for the morrow…” [al-Hashr 59:18].
Let a man give charity from his dinars, his dirhams, his clothing, his wheat or his dates - even if it is only half a date.’ A man from the Ansaar brought a package which he could hardly carry in his hand, then another and another came, until there were two piles, of food and clothing, and I saw the face of the Messenger of Allaah
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(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) beaming with joy. The Messenger of Allaah
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(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: 'Whoever starts a good thing in Islam will have his own reward and a reward equal to that of those who follow him, without it detracting in the least from their reward, and whoever starts a bad thing in Islam will have to bear the burden of his own sin and a burden equal to that of those who followed him, without it detracting in the least from their burden. (Reported by al-Nisaa’i in al-Mujtaba: Kitaab al-Zakaat, Bab al-Tahreed 'ala al-Sadaqah).
From the context of the story, it is clear that what is meant by the words “whoever starts a good thing (sunnah hasanah) in Islam” means: Whoever revives a part of the Sunnah of the Prophet
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(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), or teaches it to others, or commands others to follow it, or acts according to it so that others see him or hear about it and follow his example. This is also indicated by the hadeeth narrated by Abu Hurayrah, may Allaah be pleased with him, who said: "A man came to the Prophet
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(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and he urged the people to give him charity. A man said: ‘I have such-and-such,’ and there was no person left in the gathering who did not give something in charity to him, whether it was a large amount or a little. The Messenger of Allaah
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(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: 'Whoever starts something good, and others follow his lead, will have a complete reward and a reward like that of those who followed him, without it detracting in the least from their reward. Whoever starts something bad, and others follow his lead, will bear a complete burden of sin, and a burden like that of those who followed him, without it detracting in the least from their burden. (Reported by Ibn Maaajah in al-Sunan, no. 204)
It should be clear from the above, with no room for doubt, that the Prophet
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(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was not allowing innovation in matters of deen (religion), nor was he opening the door to what some people call “bid’ah hasanah,” for the following reasons:
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(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) stated repeatedly that: “Every newly-invented thing is a bid’ah (innovation), every bid’ah is a going astray, and every going astray will be in the Fire.” (Reported by al-Nisaa’i in al-Sunan, Salaat al-'Eedayn, Baab kayfa al-Khutbah). Reports with the same meaning were narrated via Jaabir (may Allaah be pleased with him) by Ahmad, via al-'Irbaad ibn Saariyah by Abu Dawud and via Ibn Mas’ood (may Allaah be pleased with him) by Ibn Maajah.
The Prophet
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(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to say, when beginning a khutbah (sermon): “… The best of speech is the Book of Allaah and the best of guidance is the guidance of Muhammad. The worst of things are those which are newly-invented, and every innovation is a going astray…” (reported by Muslim, no. 867)
If every bid’ah is a going astray, how can some people then say that there is such a thing in Islam as “bid’ah hasanah”? By Allaah, this is an obvious contradiction of the statement and warning of the Prophet
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(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).
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(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) stated that whoever innovates something new in the deen (religion) will have his deed rejected, and Allaah will not accept it, as is stated in the hadeeth narrated by 'Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her), who said: "The Messenger of Allaah
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(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Whoever innovates something in this matter of ours that is not a part of it will have it rejected.’" (Reported by al-Bukhaari, Fath al-Baari, no. 2697). How can anybody then say that bid’ah is acceptable and it is permitted to follow it?
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(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) until the time when this innovator came along and completed it with his own ideas.
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(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was “guilty” of either of two things: either he was ignorant of this “good innovation,” or he knew about it but concealed it, thus letting his ummah down by not conveying it.
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(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), his Companions and the righteous salaf (early generations) missed out on the reward of this “good innovation” - until this innovator came along and earned it for himself, despite the fact that he should say to himself, “If it was truly good, they would have been the first to do it.”
We ask Allaah to save us from the misguidance of personal whims and from all trials whether they are open or secret. And Allaah knows best.
Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid (www.islam-qa.com
im not posting this to carry on the debate. jus to clarify what bidah really is brother.
wasalaam.
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
If you cannot see it then dont worry.
regards,
bob
Re: Bid^a - (Innovation) 2 types, Good and Evil As Scholars stated.
Asalaamu Alaikum Bob
Bob is there such thing as a "Bidah Hasana"?