Beyond September 11th 'The Role Of Muslims in The West'

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

Assalamu’alaikum,

Since the events of September 11th and beyond, I have noticed a decisive split within the Muslims living in the west. On one hand I have seen the Muslims who have taken a defensive attitude to the anti Islamic sentiments created by the september 11th attacks. the khutbas I have heard in the masjids. We are peace loving people there is no anger in Islam and some going as far as saying jihad is only to defend our selves or even there is no jihad in Islam. On the other hand there are Muslims who call for Islam as a solution and as an alternative ideology to the capitalist one, and warn us against integrating into western societies.

I would like to start a discussion with all on “what IS the role of Muslims in the west”?

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Re: Beyond September 11th 'The Role Of Muslims in The West'

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Kosser_M: *
Assalamu'alaikum,

Since the events of September 11th and beyond, I have noticed a decisive split within the Muslims living in the west. On one hand I have seen the Muslims who have taken a defensive attitude to the anti Islamic sentiments created by the september 11th attacks. the khutbas I have heard in the masjids. We are peace loving people there is no anger in Islam and some going as far as saying jihad is only to defend our selves or even there is no jihad in Islam. On the other hand there are Muslims who call for Islam as a solution and as an alternative ideology to the capitalist one, and warn us against integrating into western societies.

I would like to start a discussion with all on “what IS the role of Muslims in the west”?
[/QUOTE]

Good question. I think the Western govts and media are dividing the muslims into two camps, like Bush said u r eithier with us or with the terrorist. In the same way the muslims in UK are told that they MUST accept the West forign policies and the Western way of life or ELSE they will be classed as terrorist and be attacked by the Britsih Nationla Front(BNP). IN other words they want muslims to give up the politcal aspect of islam and integrate into western society (i.e become secular)

As for the role of muslims in the west, i think muslims should stick to thier islamic culture and not comprise any aspect of islam. They should also show the problems created by the western viewpoint of life throughout the world and show how islam as ideology would solve these problems. And 1 important thing the muslims should remeber that they are 1 ummah, who number over 1.5 billion who have been blessed with rich natural resoucres. WE ARE NOT a minority group nor british muslims but RATHER we are muslims living in Britain who need to adere to the islamic creed despite the vicious ideological onslaught by the so called civillised world.

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Agree, but what does it mean to compromise our Islamic culture?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Kosser_M: *
Agree, but what does it mean to compromise our Islamic culture?
[/QUOTE]

Comprise means to give up certain aspects of islam.There are many examples, Like today the Western govts are trying very hard to distance muslims living in the west from the global Ummah. i.e they are telling muslims that they are British muslims and whatever is happening to the muslims elsewhere has nothing to do with the muslims in UK. They try to convince the muslims in UK that they should only look after their own communities affairs, and not bother about what is happening in Palestine,Kashmir,Iraq, etc

in other words they want muslims to give up the following hadith:

"the muslims are one ummah, their land is one and their war is one"

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[QUOTE]

Islamic culture?
[/QUOTE]

there is no such thing as an ISLAMIC CULTURE!!

[QUOTE]

                          in other words they want muslims to give up the following hadith: 

                          "the muslims are one ummah, their land is one and their war is one"

[/QUOTE]

filhaal:
one thing which i certainly donot like about muslims is these kinds of remarks (not only here on GS, but in everyday life): "the west wants to devide the muslim ummah"

the main thing is that we muslims do not mind being devided.........we muslims need to introspect and not put all the blame on west or USA..........

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I agree blame lies on the Muslims who have fallen into the trap of accepting the western way but we must be very clear as to where the dangerous ideas such as freedom & democracy come from. Living anywhere in the world especially in the west we face a bombardment of concepts which are alien to Islam, such as a girlfriend boyfriend relationship is totally normal from the western culture but in the Islamic culture it is totally forbidden.

So we must be clear that ever since the 3rd of March 1924 when Islam was destroyed from political life (with the destruction of the khilafah) the Muslims have been bombarded with un Islamic ideas with no real refuge because it is the system of Islam i.e. the Islamic khilafah system which protects the true Islamic identity and The true Islamic concepts.

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>>>where the dangerous ideas such as freedom & democracy come from

:-O

Care to explain how freedom & democracy are alien to Islam?

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Any idealology, system or society that considers freedom and democracy "dangerous ideas", are themselves a danger to the people they claim to advocate. Freedom and democracy should complement and encourage religous beliefs, not stifle them. It is only paranoia and a lack of conviction or confidence in their own faith that would tell a person that freedom and democracy are "dangerous ideas".

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[QUOTE]

                          So we must be clear that ever since the 3rd of March 1924 when Islam was destroyed from political life
                          (with the destruction of the khilafah) the Muslims have been bombarded with un Islamic ideas with no
                          real refuge because it is the system of Islam i.e. the Islamic khilafah system which protects the true
                          Islamic identity and The true Islamic concepts.

[/QUOTE]

i think that the true khalifate was destroyed a bit earlier. almost 1400 years ago after the khalifate of Hz. Ali...............

BTW who's faults was it that the khalifate was destroyed............ours cq muslims!!!!

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[QUOTE]

Any idealology, system or society that considers freedom and democracy "dangerous ideas", are
themselves a danger to the people they claim to advocate. Freedom and democracy should complement
and encourage religous beliefs, not stifle them. It is only paranoia and a lack of conviction or
confidence in their own faith that would tell a person that freedom and democracy are "dangerous
ideas".
[/QUOTE]

filhaal:
thumbs up.........i completely agree!!!!!!!!

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[QUOTE]
Originally posted by ahmadjee: *
*>>>where the dangerous ideas such as freedom & democracy come from

:-O

Care to explain how freedom & democracy are alien to Islam?
[/QUOTE]

salaam alikum

Ok lets see if the so called freedoms agree with Islam...lets test these puesdo freedom against with what islam says.

Freedom of belief........ok if a person accepts islam, then they are not allowed to become non Muslim. Hence no freedom of belief....and also Allah(swt) says that the only deen accepted to Him(swt) is Islam

Freedom of speech......so this means that a person can slander the prophet(saw)?, so this means a person can slander islam?, so this means that a person can insult the deen of haq?so this means ppl can say what they want even though it goes agianst islam?so this means a person can insult ur parents?....No By Allah(swt) none of these are allowed by islam..... hence no freedom of speech.

Personal freedom...this means that a person can do what they want in their personal life, in other words they dont have to obey islam in their private life. Obviously a muslim has to be obey the halal and haram wherever they are, wheather in public or private life, hence no personal freedom.

Freedom of ownership....ok this means that man is free to own want he wants....so can a person can own a pub? can a perosn own a brothel? can ppl sell drugz? can ppl take intrest? can ppl invest in shares? have a bank system based on usury? can individuals own natural resources??.....the point is that muslims are ONLY allowed to own and trade in things permitted by islam.

The problems that arise out of the freedoms are many, anyone living in the Western world can testify to this.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by clubber lang: *

The problems that arise out of the freedoms are many, anyone living in the Western world can testify to this.
[/QUOTE]

And the problems that arise out of totalitarinism and loss of individual rights are many as well, as anyone who lived in under Hitler, Stalin, Mao or the Taleban can testify.

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[QUOTE]
Originally posted by ahmadjee: *
*>>>where the dangerous ideas such as freedom & democracy come from

:-O

Care to explain how freedom & democracy are alien to Islam?
[/QUOTE]

Democracy means peoples power i.e. the people have the full right to legislate. People have the right to make laws and break them according to what they think is right for the people. This contradicts Islam because in Islam only Allah (swt) has the right to legislate. When Allah has legislated upon any matter than there can be no consultation on this matter for example. Allah (swt) has said in the Qur’an “cut the hand of the thief” now saying that thieves should be put in prison is haram because this issue has already been decided.

Allah (swt) says in the Qur’an “IT IS NOT FOR A BELIEVER, MAN OR WOMAN, WHEN ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER HAVE DECREED A MATTER THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE ANY OPINION IN THEIR DECISION. AND WHOEVER DISOBEYS ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER, HE HAS INDEED STRAYED INTO PLAIN ERROR” [TMQ 33:36]

As for freedom there is no such concept in Islam how can we be free we are Abdallah (slaves of Allah) freedom breeds homosexuality, paedophilia, rape, incest, etc. I can explain more if you like?

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[QUOTE]

**
The Role Of Muslims in The West' **

[/QUOTE]

filhaal:
come on people, lets first clean up the mess we muslims have made in our own backyards (countries) before we start cleaning other peoples problems..........

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clubber lang,

Freedom of Belief:

Islam gives full freedom of belief and the idea that a person who once accepts Islam cannot go back to disbelieving is has no grounds in the beautiful teaching of Islam.

18: 29/30: And say, `It is the truth from your Lord; wherefore let him who will, believe, and let him, who will, disbelieve.' .....

4: 137/138: **Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve **and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them nor will He guide them to the right way ....

If a person can believe but then can't disbelieve then who is Allah talking about in the above verses?

Freedom of Speech:

Blasphemy laws intact in different Muslim countries also do not have any grounds in true Islamic teachings.

When was it that the Holy Prophet (saw), whos Sunnah you so proudly follow, persecute someone who slandered him? What did he do to the old lady who out of prejudice threw garbage at the Prophet (saw) as he passed by her street? Smiled at her, took care of her, went to check on her when she was ill.

What did he do to the people who tortured him in the streets of Ta'if so much so that his shoes were filled with blood from their stones. Did he took revenge? Did he ask them to be smashed to pieces when given the chance? NO! Instead he prayed for their forgiveness.

And there are countless examples of how people used to slander & insult him but he always spoke to them with kindness and love. So, you claim to follow this great prophet of Allah and consider there is no freedom of speech? Astagfurullah!

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Kosser_M,

If you are afraid if given the freedom, the choice, people would make laws against the laws of Quran. Then they didn't believe in the first place. Subjecting them, forcing them to follow the laws will only make hypocrites out of them, not believers. And in Islam ...

*There is no compulsion in religion *.... (2:256/257)

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thumbs up, ahmadjee

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[QUOTE]
Originally posted by ahmadjee: *
**Kosser_M,*

If you are afraid if given the freedom, the choice, people would make laws against the laws of Quran. Then they didn't believe in the first place. Subjecting them, forcing them to follow the laws will only make hypocrites out of them, not believers. And in Islam ...

*There is no compulsion in religion *.... (2:256/257)
[/QUOTE]

Muslims do not have the choice wether to make laws or not Allah has already decided this matter he is the "AL-HAKIM" the law giver and like Allah (swt) says in the Qur'an in a number of ayaats:

The rules within the Islamic state are restricted solely to what Allah (SWT) has revealed, Allah (SWT) says:

"And rule between them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their vain desires" [TMQ 5:49]

"If any do fail to rule by what Allah has revealed, they are the unbelievers" [TMQ 5:44]

"And if any fail to rule by what Allah has revealed, they are the wrongdoers" [TMQ 5:45]

"If any do fail to rule by what Allah has revealed, they are those who rebel" [TMQ 5:47]

So people are kafrs, thalims, fasiks, if they don't rule by what Allah revealed not if they do!!

as for the ayaat you quoted that applies to non-Muslims not Muslims (please check the tafsir before giving own opinion) so non-Muslims are not forced to become Muslims but once a Muslim it is obsered to say a Muslim can become kafir. THIS IS A VERY BASIC POINT IN ISLAM???

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I have to agree with Kosser. It is a little revisionist to state at this point in history that muslims have been given freedom to give up Islam. Why such stringent laws against apostacy throught out various muslims countries, if muslims had freedom to give up Islam in muslim(Islamic) countries? I think that is a basic point as implemented by most muslim societies. I read Maulana Maudoodi's commentry and I think he also stated that "there is no compulsion " ayat is for non-muslims and that there is no going back once one accepts Islam.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ahmadjee: *
clubber lang,

Freedom of Belief:

**Islam gives full freedom of belief and the idea that a person who once accepts Islam cannot go back to disbelieving is has no grounds in the beautiful teaching of Islam.

18: 29/30: And say, `It is the truth from your Lord; wherefore let him who will, believe, and let him, who will, disbelieve.' .....

4: 137/138: **Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve **and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them nor will He guide them to the right way ....

If a person can believe but then can't disbelieve then who is Allah talking about in the above verses?**

if we examine the concept of freedom and link it back to it's intellectual basis (the creed) we can put things into perspective.

The word FreeDom is composed of two words (one being foreign). The free obviously means no restrictions and the word DOM is a greek word which means GOD. Hence when you put the two together you get " Freedom from God". So the meaning of Freedom is even secular (not allowing relgion to interfere in lifes affairs).

This leads me to my second point, which is that the freedoms emanate from secularism. We know the history where the kings of Europe would oppress the masses in the name of religion and there was an uprising where the people agreed to let religion exist but it should be eseparated from life and state. So because God now had no role to play in peoples lives, man would be the only candidate left to decide how life in society should be organised. So the restrictions of God were uplifted and the people were given FreeDom(free from God). So not only does the concept of freedom contradict Islam, the basis it emanated from is in direct conflict with the basis of Islam (it's aqeedah).

The ayahs that you have used above do not proove the point that the muslim who leaves his deen should not be punished. You have not looked at the other evidences which specifically order the punishment upon the apostate.

Freedom of Speech:

Blasphemy laws intact in different Muslim countries also do not have any grounds in true Islamic teachings.

**When was it that the Holy Prophet (saw), whos Sunnah you so proudly follow, persecute someone who slandered him? What did he do to the old lady who out of prejudice threw garbage at the Prophet (saw) as he passed by her street? Smiled at her, took care of her, went to check on her when she was ill.

What did he do to the people who tortured him in the streets of Ta'if so much so that his shoes were filled with blood from their stones. Did he took revenge? Did he ask them to be smashed to pieces when given the chance? NO! Instead he prayed for their forgiveness.

And there are countless examples of how people used to slander & insult him but he always spoke to them with kindness and love. So, you claim to follow this great prophet of Allah and consider there is no freedom of speech? Astagfurullah!
[/QUOTE]
**

Again you have used these examples out of context because these examples are before the Islamic state was established and the laws could practically be applied. There are many incidents were people violated a rule in the Islamic society and they were accounted and punished for.They were not looked upon as expressing themselves.

What you believe in ie freedom, does not even exist in the west as if i was to go past a red light, i would have to pay a fine,WHERE IS MY FREEDOM. Every society needs laws to protect its people and to apply rules.

So i hope you can admit sincerely that the muslims should shun the concept of FreeDOM and take on board the concept that they must live according to the Halaal and Haraam.