Beware of Gandhi,...

I was reading this topic about Gandhi,…thought to share with you guyz and find out the truth,…

First some background. Gandhi was a practicing attorney in South Africa when racism led him to return to British India around 1915. He immersed himself in efforts to win India’s independence from Britain by non-violent methods. Along the way, he helped emancipate millions suffering under the caste system, and by his conduct exemplified promptness and austerity. **He also laid the foundations of socialism and indirectly contributed to the creation of Pakistan. **

Lets start with India’s freedom struggle. With terrorism and war on everyone’s minds, doubtlessly there are some who pine for non-violence. However, before we start adopting non-violence as course 101 in military school, we should examine its track record. Except for the civil rights movement in US, non-violence has never worked. **One of the biggest misconceptions is that India gained independence because of Mohandas Gandhi. Far from it – it was World War II’s violence that exhausted the British to the point that they could not sustain an empire anymore. India would have become independent, Gandhi or no Gandhi. **Even if one were to assume that India obtained independence courtesy Gandhi, consider that it took him 32 years. Contrast that with the five years it took America under Washington’s army to achieve the same goal. Another unappreciated facet is that for non-violence to work, the opponent has to respect it. The British, despite all their colonial faults, did that. Can you imagine how long Mohandas Gandhi would have lasted in front of Hitler, Mao, or Saddam Hussein?

So on Gandhi’s birthday, as we wage a war on terrorism, let us not forget that by and large, non-violence does not work and when it does, it is under special circumstances. The war on terrorism is not one of those special circumstances and we have to be resolute and determined.

Another aspect of Gandhi was his concept of self-sufficiency. His theory was that if Indians made everything themselves, they would not have to import anything from Britain, thus depriving the English of trade and tax revenue. The problem is that no country is completely proficient in goods and services. Free trade allows each country to excel in an aspect and to leverage its expertise. But Gandhi did not see it that way, and his vision was further propagated by his anointed successor, Nehru. India thus embarked on a socialist path after independence. To judge its effect, it would suffice to point out that South Korea, a country that took the capitalistic route, had a per capita income lower than India in 1947. It is eight times that of India today.

So on Gandhi’s birthday, as Americans loose jobs in this global economy and start considering erecting trade barriers, remember India’s failed experiment with economic populism and socialism. Free trade does not mean unequal trade, such as that we have with China that has artificially kept its currency low. Free trade does mean honest and fair trade and we have to enforce all aspects of it.

Finally, let us address the creation of Pakistan. **Despite Gandhi’s assertions that British India would be divided over his dead body, **the opposite took place. This at the behest of Mohammad Jinnah, the father of Pakistan, and Nehru, the first Prime Minister of India. The former was also a lawyer in India who disagreed with **Gandhi’s method and detested the personality cult surrounding him. He was particularly infuriated with Gandhi’s blind affection for Nehru. Jinnah came to the conclusion that the partiality shown to Nehru was due to the fact that Gandhi and Nehru were both Hindus, whereas he, Jinnah, was Muslim. He decided that Muslims could not get fair and equal treatment in largely Hindu India, **and that a new Muslim country would have to be created. The rest, as they say, is history. The American reader should be well aware that India and Pakistan are belligerent nuclear neighbors quite capable of annihilating large portions of each other. With nuclear proliferation and nuclear winter important concepts, surely the reader will appreciate the importance of the dispute between the two countries.


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1155084/posts#comment

Re: Beware of Gandhi,…

:rotfl:

One more pakistani jealous of Gandhi - It’s all Attenborough’s fault. Who asked you to cast that dracula guy for Jinnah? No soup for you!

Re: Beware of Gandhi,…

Now read the topic and lets go over it point by point,…BTW,…As I said in my previous post,..that I liked Gandhi’s,..non-violance stand,…But since you think every Pakistani is against Gandhi,..then lets have it,..and tell me,.what you think,…now,..Did Gandhi really got independance for India,..NOOOOOO,..

So what he did,..??? other than walking between two ladies,…:slight_smile:

Re: Beware of Gandhi,…

TARIQ786USA, if possible please study in detail the Gandhi’s first non-cooperation movement in India, 1921.
For a clue I can tell you that the British were getting ready to leave India in 1921, but for Chora Chourry village killings Gandhi discontinued the movement.

For your apprehensions about non-violence…it is a very broad topic. Gandhi prepared the Indian psychology for freedom from cities to last forbidden villages.

Gandhi had a vision for world community to achieve a zero level violence nature. He said that he could wait for freedom for another fifty years, hence there is no bloodshed.

But, are you serious about this topic…go and check why Jinnah suddenly changed his dress in 1940.

Re: Beware of Gandhi,...

Dear tariq,
Ur beginning post is true.. and i dont dispute it. But u r selectively saying the truth.. u r failing to realize the full truth of the matter. Before Gandhiji came to India, India's freedom struggle was largely an isolated movement. He brought concept of unity in India. India is a country of so much diversity(even now). His concept appealed to the people. No Jinnah could have got this to work untill he took up religion as a couse.. which he himself didnt believe so much in. Jinnah is street smart politician.. and Gandhi was not that. He had his morals.. and people believed him, be it muslims, sikhs or Hindus. At least a majority of them. If u can look back, the provinces now in Pakistan usually elected Congress at those times.
Coming to non-violence.
Its a difficult concept. Let me tell u, human beings cannot be forced into submissivness. He would retaliate one way or the other, if something unjust is done to him. U should have real conviction to be non-violent. Tariq can u do that. Can u become a Gandhi. I cannot.
Being just non-violent was not his weapon. He had the support of the people. His civil disobedience and non-coperation movement was successfull because of that. He had the ability to convince people to think like him.
His concept of socialism at that time was mainly against exploiting our poor farmers in India. Cotton was produced in India and then taken to England or Ireland i think to make cloaths and then sell it back. All the prizes controlled by the British and which finally ended up destroying the life of farmers. I mean if Britian had believed in the welfare of India.. then would they not have had their factories here.. He was not a Marxist. Tell me a country which doesnt follow socialism. All countries do.. no country is purely capitalistic. US has their own anti dumping and other laws.. they give economical benefit to the poor. Most of the European countries do the same.
Britian was indeed week after the second world war.. but if there was no opposition to the british occupancy then India would not have been liberated. Britsh used their colonies to fight their dirty wars. Its difficult to believe that British at that time didnt think that they would be sucked up into another war.
Later part of the argument next time.:)

Re: Beware of Gandhi,…

The million dollar question is this: could Gandhiji have prevented the dismemberment. Churchill once said that a statesman is one who anticipates and foretells what will happen a decade hence, and if it did not happen, explain why it did not. The nucleus of Pakistan was formed in 1937 and finally crystallised in 1940.


From Indian History,…Now,..check this out,…

The Round Table Conference of 1929 was Gandhi’s Waterloo. He erred in going to London as the sole spokesperson of the Congress, pinning hopes on the appeals from British statesmen. There he was cornered by the chosen few from among the Muslims who asked him to justify how he could speak on behalf of their community, while Mauna Shasta Ali, former Khilafat leader, warned the Hindus: “If the Hindus don’t meet our demands this time, we’re going to make war on them. We ruled the Hindus once. We at least don’t intend to be ruled by them now.” The British Government planned to announce the Communal Award B this time the Scheduled Castes were to be favored, as were the Muslims in 1909. In disgust, Gandhi returned home empty-handed, while the government armed itself for letting loose repression.

Gandhi failed to checkmate Jinnah’s dangerous moves. Jinnah had no influence with the Muslim Premiers of Punjab, Sind and Bengal. Even when Fall Hue from Bengal had proposed the Pakistan resolution, he had later turned anti-Jinnah; while Ghulam Hussain Hidayatullaha, Sind Premier, had opposed the resolution. Gandhi did not capture an opportunity to form an anti-Jinnah front along with them. That was against his spirit of compromise as against confrontation. He ploughed his lonely furrow. The landed Gandhi in a complex situation in 1942, which exerted pressure on him for action. There were the Communists and other Leftists who favored support for the war in view of Russia and Britain having become allies. On the other hand, there were lurking fears that Japan might occupy India. In April 1942, the first Japanese bombing of India took place and there was seizure of the Andaman Islands.

On his release from prison in 1944, Gandhi committed a great blunder in his talks with Jinnah, when all his colleagues were in jail. This boosted Jinnah’s prestige amongst the Muslims in two ways: as a wrecker, and as the Quaid-e Azam, Jinnah came on level with Gandhi, the Mahatma. The Gandhi-Jinnah talks had serious repercussions. Immediately Jinnah acquired the status of sole spokesmanship.

http://www.indhistory.com/gandhi-jinnah.html


History is saying and giving its verdict…I don’t have to add any iota of informations,…

BTW:…I Never wanted to bring this topic up,…**Atlantis ** was interested to discuss Gandhi in detail,…While I agree with Gandhi’s non-violance movement and some other policies to some extent,..Since we started this in detail now,..lets di-sect this history before and after independance,…here…:slight_smile:

Re: Beware of Gandhi,…

vineshvk,

I didn’t write that,…first post,..I just copied from one site,…as it has the web Address at the bottom too.

I am studying and learning more and more now,…:slight_smile:

Re: Beware of Gandhi,…

I know that non-violance ,…movement,..and its idea behind it…I do agree with Gandhi too,…Don’t take me wrong here…Also I know He was a uniting figure too,…But his actions,..and political immaturity lead to partition,…and Jinnah took the lead and got for Muslims,..what he wanted,…that’s the whole Idea,..here.

Now about his as you just said:

Well,…I am sending his dress for DNA test right-away,…:)..If any thing found on it,..I shall let you know :slight_smile:

Re: Beware of Gandhi,...

Tariq, you kindly tell me one thing!
you have opened this thread to study the non-voilence theory of Gandhi, or to prove that he was wrong?

Re: Beware of Gandhi,...

Didn't Gandhi let his own wife die of malaria when she could easily be cured by "evil western medicine"?

Re: Beware of Gandhi,…

Kasturba Gandhi.. she was 77 when she died.. and i think malaria was not the reason.. can anybody correct me please.. and also i think she died in a prison.:confused:

Re: Beware of Gandhi,…

Vineshvk, I got that information from an article published in a magazine:
http://eserver.org/history/ghandi-nobody-knows.txt
“At a dinner party shortly afterward, a friend of mine, who had visited India
many times and even gone to the trouble of learning Hindi, objected strenuously
that the picture of Gandhi that emerges in the movie is grossly inaccurate,
omitting, as one of many examples, that when Gandhi’s wife lay dying of
pneumonia and British doctors insisted that a shot of penicillin would save her,
Gandhi refused to have this alien medicine injected in her body and simply let
her die. (It must be noted that when Gandhi contracted malaria shortly afterward
he accepted for himself the alien medicine quinine, and that when he had
appendicitis he allowed British doctors to perform on him the alien outrage of
an appendectomy.) All of this produced a wistful mooing from an editor of a
major newspaper and a recalcitrant, “But still…” I would prefer to explicate
things more substantial than a wistful mooing, but there is little doubt it
meant the editor in question felt that even if the real Mohandas K. Gandhi had
been different from the Gandhi of the movie it would have been nice if he had
been like the movie-Gandhi, and that presenting him in this admittedly false
manner was beautiful, stirring, and perhaps socially beneficial.”

[From the magazine, “Commentary,” March 1983, published monthly by the American
Jewish Committee, New York, NY.]

Re: Beware of Gandhi,...

^ hammm.. I dont know about that.. but Jewish people have their differences with Gandhi.. he was against the formation of jewish state. He didnt want a country to be formed only based on religion.
I will verify this anyway and come back to u.

Re: Beware of Gandhi,...

Are you being anti-semitic here? :p just kidding, but yea, if you could verify this to be true or false that would be great. and check out the link I posted, it has some more stuff in there too.

Re: Beware of Gandhi,…

he he..:smiley:

Re: Beware of Gandhi,…

I couldnt still find a proper unbiased link which i think is credible about Kasturba Gandhi’s death. Most of the links are biased in our favour i suppose.
But let me give u a link to one of a famous Jew. who said something about Gandhiji.. u can hear his voice as well.
http://streams.gandhiserve.org/einstein.html
I have read the link u gave me.. but i feel he had a lot of jelousy in his post.. and anyway i am no Gandhi himself to deny whatever he says..

Re: Beware of Gandhi,...

Hi Tariq - sorry I heckled at you in the beginning of this thread. So many pakistanis open threads to simply vent out their ill found ill informed hatred of Gandhi the great man. This fellow Fraudia is a stellar example of that hating ilk.

The man (Gandhi) led India (and includes Pakistan) out of slavery; but for that most of the hating ilk will still be licking british boots - yet they choose to insullt him and try to find everything he did wrong instead of thanking him for what he did right.

Over time I have therefore concluded that these idiots and their hatred are motivated simply by the inadequacy they feel. Problem is Gandhi is dead and Jinnah is dead. Fraudia and gang will not rest in peace until somehow Jinnah runs a 100meters dash or something and beats Gandhi by a few seconds.

Anyway, good luck with your search for info on Gandhi which shouldn't be hard to come by in any language. Wherever you are, just go to the local library and borrow a book or google away.

Re: Beware of Gandhi,…

I didn’t want to go into Past and bring some un-pleasent things,…about anybody,..but you was insisting,..then you left me with no choice…to open up the pandora box,..and lets educate everyone,…about Jinnah and Gandhi,..Now you see,..what’s coming out.

Some of the stuff,..about Gandhi’s wife even.I didn’t know,..and other stuff is new to me too.** India was getting independance with or without Gandhi anyway,…because of drained-out and helpless british empire…**

Then why we give credit to Gandhi,…???

Re: Beware of Gandhi,…

Atlantis just because I dont worship gandhi does not mean I have hatred of Gandhi. I have objectively stated what was admirable about the man and what was not based on facts.

Next time you chose to drag a name for some baseless reason please make sure its not mine. Thanks

Re: Beware of Gandhi,...

this thread is outta place in PA..the mods should pull it