Betrayal Of Sikhs In The Hindu Empire ...

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
101

Re: Betrayal Of Sikhs In The Hindu Empire ...

add up all the "genocides" from Gujarat, Amritsar/Delhi, Bombay, Kashmir, etc......and you still have significantly less deaths than one single week of massacring bengalis by the Pakistani army in 1971.

that's pretty incredible, don't you agree Tariq bhai?

102

Re: Betrayal Of Sikhs In The Hindu Empire …

After 1971, Bengalis now call that East Pakistan,…"BENGLADESH "…:eek:

103

Re: Betrayal Of Sikhs In The Hindu Empire ...

^ shows how naive you are - there's a reason people of Bangladesh decided on that name and REJECTED the name E.Pakistan. They identify themselves as Bengalis.

I was in a Indian restaurent last week - it's owned and run by people from BD. They all speak Bengali. Yes they are muslim but have matured to keep religion where it belongs

104

Re: Betrayal Of Sikhs In The Hindu Empire …

I don’t think it was a question of being naive or not,..since you twisted it,..can’t help you,..

BTW,…I am happy for those bengladeshi Muslims,..They did,..what they thought was good for them,..wish them all the best,..
BUT here we are talking about minorities in India,..do you have any thing to say,..or just distracting us from real discussion…:eek:

105

Re: Betrayal Of Sikhs In The Hindu Empire …

good, in that case stop bellyaching about them calling themselves BD.

sure thing - what do you want to know? we have a lot of minorities in India - by language, by ethnicity, by race, by religion…

they all live together and set the expample to the rest of the world in showing how diversity works.

you guys, particularly those muslims and pakistanis who are intolerants towards others, can learn a lot from us

106

Re: Betrayal Of Sikhs In The Hindu Empire …

This BD,…terminology is your fabrication,…anyhow,…coming to the topic,…read the following and get your belly aching now,…:slight_smile:

**Here are some relevant facts about India and Indian-occupied Khalistan: **

  • Indian newspapers recently reported that 25,000 Sikhs were either cremated as `unclaimed bodies.’ or thrown in canals and rivers.
  • The White Paper on State Terrorism in Punjab cites S.S. Ray, Indian Ambassador to the U.S., as the butcher of Bengal' and the butcher of Punjab.’
  • Over 41,000 cash bounties were paid to police officers for killing Sikhs, according to the US State Dept.
  • Over 120,000 Sikhs killed since 1984.
  • Over 150,000 Christians killed since 1947. Over 43,000 Kashmiri Muslims killed since 1988.
  • Tens of thousands more languish in Indian prisons without charge or trial.
  • Amnesty International reports hundreds of Sikhs have disappeared.
  • Asia Watch reports `virtually everyone detained in Punjab is tortured.’
  • Police operate over 200 torture centers (police stations) in Punjab, Khalistan.
  • Police routinely pick up Sikh youths and demand ransom of tens of thousands of rupees for their safe release. Otherwise, the youths are tortured and killed.
  • Sikhs who die of torture are listed as being killed in an `encounter’ with the police.
  • Despite the recent repeal of TADA, the other `Black Laws’, giving the regime sweeping powers to detain anyone for any reason and kill Sikhs without fear of persecution, remain on the books.
  • India has not allowed Amnesty International to conduct an independent human-rights investigation in Punjab, Khalistan, since 1978.
  • India recently attacked an ancient mosque in Kashmir which houses the mausoleum of the venerated Sheik Nooruddin Wali. In December 1992, Hindus destroyed the Babri mosque in Ayodhya.
  • In June 1984, India attacked the Golden Temple in Amritsar, the holiest shrine of the Sikh Nation.
  • The Chicago Tribune reports that a nun was stabbed 36 times by right-wing Hindu fundamentalists. By these actions, India displays its religious intolerance.
  • The Indian newspaper Hitavada reported in November that the late Governor of Punjab, Surendra Nath, was paid $1.5 billion by the Indian regime to foment terrorism in Punjab, Khalistan, and in Kashmir.
  • The State Department says that the human-rights situation is getting worse.
  • No Sikh has ever signed the Indian constitution.
  • The Sikh leadership declared Khalistan independent on October 7, 1987.
  • The movement to liberate Khalistan is peaceful, democratic, and nonviolent.
  • Former Member of Parliament Simranjit Singh Mann has been held in a windowless cell for four months for the `crime’ of speaking out for Khalistan.
  • The Supreme Court of India ruled that asking for Khalistan is not a crime.
  • According to India Abroad, 96 percent of the Sikhs in Punjab, Khalistan did not vote in India’s February 1992 elections there.
  • India has 500,000 troops in Punjab, occupied Khalistan, alone–more than Britain had in the entire subcontinent during its rule.
  • Khalistan, Kashmir, and Nagaland continue to be denied their right to self-determination.
  • India has 18 official languages. It is a polyglot like the former Soviet Union. It is not one country.
  • May 1995–Indian troops in Kashmir burn to the ground the centuries-old walnut wood mosque in Charar-e-Sharies, along with hundreds of homes around it.
  • December 1992–Hindu mobs destroy the historic Babri Mosque in Ayodhya as Indian troops stand by and watch.
  • December 1992–Gurdev Singh Kaonke, one of the most revered leaders of the Sikh religion, is arrested, tortured and killed in police custody.
  • June 1984–Indian soldiers launch an all out attack on the Golden Temple in Amritsar, the holiest shrine of the Sikh religion. 38 other temples throughout Punjab are attacked, killing thousands of Sikhs.
  • Asia Watch: `Virtually everyone detained in Punjab is tortured.’
  • Amnesty International: `Torture (in Punjab and Kashmir) and illtreatment is widespread and in some cases systematic, resulting in scores of deaths in police custody.’
  • State Department Human Rights Report (1994): Over 41,000 cash bounties were paid to police in Punjab for extrajudicial killings of Sikhs between 1991 and 1993.

[US Congressioanl Record, Page: E1141 ]

  • Extrajudicial murders of Sikh youth are a common occurrence. Between 1986 and 1994, 6,017 unidentified Sikh victims of Indian police were cremated in the District of Amritsar alone. There are 13 districts in Punjab. It has been estimated that security forces have had over 25,000 unidentified Sikhs cremated or dumped in rivers during this period.
  • In January 1995, the water level of the Sirhind Canal was lowered for repair work. One dozen bodies of young Sikh torture victims were found at the bottom of just one shore section of the canal with the hands and feet bound. There are hundreds of miles of the canals through the province.
  • In January 1993, Indian paramilitary forces in Kashmir burnt to death at least 65 Kashmiri civilians in the town of Sopore. Soldiers deliberately set fire to five separate areas of the town. They also dragged shopkeepers out of their shops and shot them in the streets. The torching of entire Kashmiri villages by Indian forces is a common tactic.
  • In 1994, Sikh activist Kanwar Singh Dhami was imprisoned along with his pregnant wife and son. He and his wife were tortured in front of each other. When the police were unable to extract an untrue confession from Mr. Dhami, they hung his wife up by her heels (she was six months pregnant) forcing her to have a miscarriage.
  • In Amritsar district in 1993, Indian police brought a Sikh youth they had tortured and thought was dead to the hospital for an autopsy. After the police left, the doctors discovered that the young man was miraculously still alive and revived him. The police returned several hours later after hearing that the man was alive. They took him out of the hospital, killed him again, and brought him back to the same hospital for his autopsy.

Of course ,…we have lot to learn,…not to be like Indians,…:rotfl:

107

Re: Betrayal Of Sikhs In The Hindu Empire ...

^ tariq - if you want to persist being an idiot nobody can help you. Everyone knows India is a model that people like you can only look at and envy. How will attain any progress unless you give up your envy and jealosy? Don't waste your breadth with garbage such as the long cut-paste of yours. use some common sense.

108

Re: Betrayal Of Sikhs In The Hindu Empire …

I was not expecting any rebuttal from you,..coz,.you can’t defend,…what you see,..or may be you closed you mind and don’t wanna know the real truth,…

I want India to be successful and safe for all communities,..but facts are pointing in the other direction,…Well,…truth is truth,..though it hurts,..but it has a lesson in it too,..:eek:

109

Re: Betrayal Of Sikhs In The Hindu Empire …

Tariq bhai, why have you ignored the contents of my post? i don’t know what relevance the name “Bangladesh” has to do with what i wrote. please re-read my post and respond. thanks.

wht u think abt ths ...
110

Re: Betrayal Of Sikhs In The Hindu Empire …

I think I gave you the response,…which was quite simple to understand,…for everyone except you,…:eek:

If Pakistan acted stupid,..then India has to act stupid too,..right ?:eek: ,..Pakistan is not proud of what it did there,..I agree they committed horriable crimes,..but at the end,..they lost their other Half,…

Is India following the same path,..here too,…:confused:

111

Re: Betrayal Of Sikhs In The Hindu Empire …

i was specifically referring to the magnitude of the “genocides” in India that you seem to be so happy about (just kidding). Don’t you think it’s incredible that all of them combined are still only a small percentage of the amount of bengalis that Pakistan murdered in 1971, in just a few weeks?

i would think a Pakistani would be too overcome with shame to begin discussing “genocides” of other countries. don’t you agree?

112

Re: Betrayal Of Sikhs In The Hindu Empire …

I don’t agree with you,…here,..I am not boasting here or implying that Pakistanis were or are,..saints,..here,..they must be ashamed of themselves for what they did in 1971,…

In the same token,..India must be ashamed of itself too,..being a secular and democratic country,…having genocides of their own minorities,…

If Pakistanis are screw up then India is big screw up too,…that is my point here.

Confess it,…and move on to other issues,…which I don’t see at the moment here by any indian,..other than beating around the bushes,…:slight_smile:

check this site too:

http://www.bigeye.com/062697.htm

In 1971, Pakistani troops killed tens of thousands of Bengalis in former East Pakistan. Indian security forces and police have massacred great numbers of tribesmen in border regions, and many civilians in Kashmir and Punjab.

113

Re: Betrayal Of Sikhs In The Hindu Empire ...

Tarq bhai.. u did not answer my post. Are u comparing India to Pakistan..if so prove me that pakistan is a secular country. Prove me why are the minorities given special voting rites and can elect only their representative to the govt.Tell me why are the sunni, shia fighting against each other. Give me an egs as to where in India is muslim or Sikh being castigated for being in a different religion.
u know what is the muslim population in India.. 138million. Thats the whole of Pakistan in India..:D. Dont u think.
U posted links as if the khalistan is coming and so on.. but how much percentage in ur heart u believe that it is true. When u post something , convince urself as to what u post is true. If whole of India was non-secular and the govt.. was non secular then u will not have heard anything in the media.. if u had listened to popular media in India be it news papers or electronic media then u would have known how the riots were reported.. U know India is just not one country.. its a confederation of states which we call india. Each state has its own unique culture and heritage. And each state in turn contribute to the national interest.
U see the negative aspect and think that it is India.. well if so then keep thinking.. because we are not here to change ur mindset.. come to india and experience it.. then u will know..keep posting all bs.. u think u r giving a good view to others tariq. U have already prejudiced ur mind to showing India in the black . Then how can we change that. How can we believe that u can be true to urself

114

Re: Betrayal Of Sikhs In The Hindu Empire …

I HAVE POSTED THIS RESPONSE,..BUT POSTING IT AGAIN FOR YOU…
Vineshvk,

We know,..how many sikhs,…Muslims and other minorities were killed,..since 1947 til today,..in India,..which is already brought up and posted before…

Care to read this,..report about Gujrat ,…which is one the 1000’s reports,…as follows:

INDIA: Genocide: Ideology and Policy Result in Gujarat Massacre

http://www.ahrchk.net/hrsolid/mainf…vol12no05/2237/
.
.
.
.
.
The Gujarat carnage was especially coloured by state complicity in the violence, in premeditation and planning behind the attacks on the lives, dignity, livelihoods, businesses and properties of a section of the population-Muslims-and a selective assault on their religious and cultural places of worship. Muslim women were targeted as objects of their community and similarly abused with an inhuman level of violence and sexual crimes. An economic and social boycott of the community was openly encouraged and continues in many parts of Gujarat to date. Agricultural land holdings of Muslims, small and large, have been taken over by dominant community and caste groups. A livelihood for Muslims has been snatched away, and there is a clear-cut and ongoing design to economically cripple the community.

The chief minister of Gujarat, Shri Narendra Modi, has been held by this tribunal to be directly responsible, along with cabinet colleagues and organisations that he leads and patronises-the BJP [Bharatiya Janata Party or Indian People’s Party], RSS [Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh], VHP [Vishva Hindu Parishad] and BD [Bajrang Dal]. For all these reasons together, there is no way that the post-Godhra carnage in Gujarat can escape being called squarely what it was-crimes against humanity and genocide.

The case for genocide against the VHP and the Bajrang Dal as well as Shri Narendra Modi and members of his cabinet is being made for the following reasons:

  1. There have been a number of statements and pamphlets from the VHP and the BD and its leaders in the
    past which establish that they have been consistently against the Muslim community, making them the target of verbal and physical attacks and provoking people to economically and physically attack Muslims and, thereafter, subject them to an economic and social boycott.
  2. There is sufficient evidence to show that the carnage in Gujarat, post-Feb. 27, was led by the VHP and the Bajrang Dal.
  3. The carnage was at six levels: physical destruction of a part of the community, economic destruction, sexual violence and rape of a large number of Muslim women , cultural and religious destruction, resistance to rehabilitation and a publicly declared desire to physically and morally destroy the Muslim community of Gujarat.
  4. The offences that were committed in the first flush of organised violence continue at a lower intensity under the same political dispensation even today.

The chief minister is equally liable for prosecution for genocide for the following reasons:

  1. refusal to take any preventive measures and protect the lives and properties of Muslims;
  2. connivance in and facilitation of the carnage;
  3. transfer of good police officers;
  4. no action against erring police officers or party functionaries who were named by victims;
  5. persistent threats to close down privately run relief camps;
  6. abusive comments against the affected and victimised community that qualify as hate speech;
  7. refusal to comply with the NHRC [National Human Rights Commission] recommendations;
  8. total failure in the provision of relief and rehabilitation;
  9. absence of punitive action against a provocative press and other organisations;
  10. influencing criminal investigation-the omission of the names of VHP/ RSS/ BJP functionaries from charge
    sheets although their names appear in FIRs [first instance reports];
  11. the case for the Gujarat carnage being nothing short of genocide is clinched by the fact that Muslim journalists, Muslim police officers, Muslim bureaucrats and Muslim teachers have had to function only after concealing or changing their identities, and this continues to be a trend even now.

Considering these facts and the distinct tendency and trends that mass crimes committed against marginalised groups have taken in past years, it is a grave lapse on the part of the government of India, which has to date not enacted any law in compliance with Article 5 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide of 1948. India signed the Genocide Convention in 1948 and ratified it in 1958. Under the convention, a State that is a signatory is bound to effectively act upon and legislate upon the intents of the legislation. Thus far, India has not enacted any law in compliance with the .
convention.
.
.
.
.

I shall be waiting for your response,…once you read it,..

BTW,…** You tell me,…is this the same India we are talking about,..or the one,..which is an imaginative..:)**

**GUJARAT GENOCIDE VICTIMS DEMAND JUSTICE - April 18, 2005 **

http://archives.zinester.com/76029/45799.html

115

Re: Betrayal Of Sikhs In The Hindu Empire ...

Vineshvk,
I know India has more muslims than Pakistan,..no doubt about it...and I wish those muslims the best,..But still when I see killing and denying and communal violance,...then I wonder what's going on,..that's where we start discussions,...

Ok,...forget khalistan,...sites,...for now,...Just tell me,..about Gujrat,...fiasco,...

116

Re: Betrayal Of Sikhs In The Hindu Empire ...

Ok tarq.. u r now in gujarat.. Yes there was communal violence but there was not a country sponsored communal violence.. when u say genocide.. it should be state sponsored..Gujarat gvt. yes could be held responsible.. but not the country india. When army was sent in.. the peace returned to Gujarat. Did that communal violence spread to other parts of india.. And the tribunal which u r talking about.. is set up by the govt.. to probe into it. The case is in the supreme court.. and the people will get justice if the govt of Gujarat had done wrong. BJP payed it by loosing the election. As i told u India is a nascent country.. US also had to go through so much before it could come to this level. In india there is full potential for a bright future.. And this is what is imp. There could be communal violence again.. it could be.. but what is imp. is that the perpetrators of that violence are cought and prosecuted. The judiciary in India takes a long time to give the verdict. But still people believe it as one of the most non-partisan judiciary in the world.

117

Re: Betrayal Of Sikhs In The Hindu Empire …

Why Indian Army was sent so late,..by BJP govt,..do you know,..???

Why MODI was not held responsible,..??? While central Govt knows very well the whole story,..?

Also BJP didn’t lose due to Gujrat issue,..they lost due to their social issues,…where poor didn’t see anything coming from the good economy…:eek:

I am just waiting for you to confess that,..Minorities killing do happen in India,..and govt sometime is involved too…Simple is that,…:slight_smile:

BTW,…your other remarks are future directed,…I hope India learns its lessson from its past and treat its own citizen,..with the same respect and diginity,..

Terror attack stopped in London; Bomb found, defused.
118

Re: Betrayal Of Sikhs In The Hindu Empire ...

My point is tariq.. that the army or the govt of India does not have the policy of terminating the minorities. They didnt use the state missionary to abide with the killers. Thats the point.
In india the central govt. cannot sent in the army till the state govt. asks for it. Or other wise the state govt. have to be dismissed and then the state comes under direct rule of the centre. But the NDA govt itself is made up of small state regional parties.. who are completely opposed to central rule and interfering in states. One such intereference as u know caused the blue star operation. Their main planck of supporting the BJP for govt is giving more powers to the state. In that context the BJP govt. at the centre could not have done much till the govt in gujarat asks for the army, which they didnt do for quite some time.
I am not justifying the NDA govt. at the centre .. i myself is not a fan of BJP. If they had done something wrong then they would pay for it. What i am saying is that u should not make ur judgment as to what happened in Gujarat. Saying that all Hindus are behind Gujarat would be a disgrace.. if that so BJP govt would have been reelected with thumping margins all over the country. And u should also not forget the cause of the riots.

Ye kia chakar hay :hmmm:
Ye kia chakar hay :hmmm:
119

Re: Betrayal Of Sikhs In The Hindu Empire …

Just keep in mind,..this please before you answer the question:

**The Gujarat carnage was especially coloured by state complicity in the violence, in premeditation and planning behind the attacks on the lives, dignity, livelihoods, businesses and properties of a section of the population-Muslims-and a selective assault on their religious and cultural places of worship. Muslim women were targeted as objects of their community and similarly abused with an inhuman level of violence and sexual crimes. An economic and social boycott of the community was openly encouraged and continues in many parts of Gujarat to date. Agricultural land holdings of Muslims, small and large, have been taken over by dominant community and caste groups. A livelihood for Muslims has been snatched away, and there is a clear-cut and ongoing design to economically cripple the community. **

The chief minister of Gujarat, Shri Narendra Modi, has been held by this tribunal to be directly responsible, along with cabinet colleagues and organisations that he leads and patronises-the BJP [Bharatiya Janata Party or Indian People’s Party], RSS [Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh], VHP [Vishva Hindu Parishad] and BD [Bajrang Dal]. For all these reasons together, there is no way that the post-Godhra carnage in Gujarat can escape being called squarely what it was-crimes against humanity and genocide.

Can you please give me the causes of the riots,..here,..:slight_smile:

120

Re: Betrayal Of Sikhs In The Hindu Empire ...

read up the news papers u will find it.. and besides my post has nothing to what u posted now. I was talking about the centre and u r talking about the state.