Tariq what you are stating is true, but it is in isolated pockets, not communities that are thriving. Can you point me to a Mahala or a gulli or a neighborhood that is all hindus, or all Xtians. No.
You may find a fw Xtians living closeby/together but thats about it.
As far as practicing their religion freely, Thank you Come Again. I believe it was moth smoke or moth ball some book that I read and went searching for the authors origins, that is where I uncovered a hindu neighborhood in Lahore that had integrated themselves as muslims for the fear of being persecuted. So while Pakistani Government may show one or two minorities in the government for the sake of human rights/ other reasons, but reality is quite different.
I am not aware of any hindu neighborhood in Lahore,…may be ,..but in Sindh,..we have majority of the hindus,..living and having full freedom,..as they suppose to…
Actually,..the feeling of neglect causes all these problems,…
India is a country of many religions,…they have to be more sensitive to these issues,..as being a secular country too. As I am going back in time and reading material about India before independance,…I am learning so many things which I never knew before,…about Hindus in Lahore,..will find out and then will be able to discuss,..
Sikh issue is well alive before and since independance,…I shall give you the details,…right now,..don’t have time to post in detail response,…from office,…
Pakistan has nothing to do with it,..Just wait for my response,…then we’ll see,..who is to blame,…
As you have raised the point about Pakistan being involved in funding Sikh movement,…is simply not true. Because:
1,…Like in Iran they have Shia’s who are very sympathetic to other shias,..no matter where or in which country they are in….This Shia belief ( Religion ) bonds them together . That’s why, Pakistan has problem with this shia-sunni killings…
2,…As in Indian Punjab,..Sikh doesn’t have this kind a bond with muslims . Their religion is different than us. Pakistan never supported them( Sikhs) as it supports just diplomatically Kashmiris who are muslims..
As you know,….**Sikhs had a map of khalistan,..which included Lahore too,..now you tell me… **
**Why Pakistan support such a movement where it has to give up it city too ? **
Sikhs have their own mind and intelligence,..they don’t need anybody to dictate them or force them to do what they don’t wanna do…for heaven sake,..give them some credit here.
India is always quick to blame Pakistan for anything or everything happens on their soil…its easy to just put blame on Pakistan…while knowing very well that its not Pakistan, its their ( Indian) own created problem….
Since independence,…If you check my first opening post,..which give out the timeline,…how Sikhs were deprived of their rights,..then you will know,..where to put this blame on…..
[1950] The Indian Constitution was adopted. The Sikh leaders did not endorse it because all promises and assurances previously made were ignored.
[1954] When jawaharlal Nehru was reminded of past promises, he answered, “The circumstances have now changed”
[1956] Indian States were reorganized on language basis. Only Punjab is left out
**[1966] **After a prolonged struggle and peaceful agitation, a Punjabi speaking state was created by divding Punjab further into three states.
**[1975] **Indira Gandhi was found guilty of election fraud by the Indian courts. She suspended the constitution to stay in office. The Sikhs spearheaded a non violent protest against this blow to democracy. 50,000 Sikhs went to jail. Indira Gandhi never forgot that the Sikhs had opposed her one person rule.
6.** [1981-1984] **More than 250 Sikhs were butchered by Indian security forces in fake encounters. More than 250,000 were arrested during this period while peacefully demanding state autonomy for Punjab and the rest of the state in India and their just share of Punjab waters as envisaged by international riparian laws.
7.** [1984] **Indira Gandhi’s response to the Sikhs was uniquely senseless. From June 5-7 a full scale army attack was launched on the Golden Temple and 40 other temples, killing thousands of innocent Sikhs - men, women and children. Many of the dead have never been accounted for.
Tariq, as per your 1st to 7th point India must have been disintegerated long back, or must disintegerate soon....but so far nothing such thing is happening.
I advise you to study the reasons...how the Indian society with so much conflits can run smoothely.
If you have patience, I can make make some efforts to show you the reality. For a start, you have to come up a little out of PTV' 4 decade propaganda.
PTV,…4 decade propaganda,…I don’t think I ever even watched PTV live,…the only desi things I watch is Indian movies,…or PTV plays,…which I rent from indian stores.
I have lot of patience,…and I am studying all this…as I find something strange,..I post it to discuss,..which is good for all of us.
OK, Tariq, I here try to find some reasons….I am answering without looking into books, or material, so there can be mistakes, have patience…
Points 1 to 4. Indian constitution is not unfair to anyone, minority or majority….there can be mistakes, done deliberately in implementation.
Promises made to Sikhs….name any Sikh leader who had been elected to any governing body or assembly by popular vote prior to freedom. Tara Singh and Co. had no popular support. They could not convince the Sikhs that they were separate nationality.
It is very easy to say that Sikhs are mistreated…but in what sense? Are they not given proper education atmosphere, barred from jobs, compelled to change religion…anything if you can inform us?
Sikhs remained in Lahore till complete partition was carved out because Sikh leaders assured them that they would kill themselves if Lahore goes to Pakistan….Sorry, over partition Sikhs were just butchered in Lahore…but it is not our topic.
Later Sikhs leaders opted for a Punjabi speaking State and there was nothing wrong in that. This movement finally ended in trio partition of Punjab.
Again the same followings tried to carve out a Sikh homeland…Khalistan as you know…but this movement never had any popular support.
If you pick up the records of killed by Bhinderwalan forces in Punjab…you will find that its target were basically Sikhs, who opposed the Bhinderwalan ideology.
Bhinderwalan movement had no popular support. That’s why when a final decision was taken By PM Narsimah Rao and the CM Byant Singh and the task was given to Gill….the police force took only three months to get rid of the so called movement that was disturbing the nation for last 15 years.
Just imagine….is it possible to crush a 15 year old movement in3 months if it has popular support?
It is absolutely true. Sikhs opposed the emergency powers of Indira Gandhi. What is wrong in that? 50000 Sikhs were in jail….I think more. As per some rumors 2% of total India population was in jail.
What do you want to criticize here…..Emergency, or breach of constitution by Indira Gandhi? No one will oppose you. Ultimately our constitution won. Indira had to go through elections and people of India gave her a thumping defeat.
Here you are wrong. First of all there was nothing peaceful in Khalistan movement. And as I told you earlier that it had no popular support.
Army attack on Golden Temple….yes, a crime which Indira Gandhi had committed. Our armed soldiers could easily tackle this problem without entering the temple but Indira Gandhi was interested in creating a sensation, as her eyes were on the forthcoming elections. She misunderstood the history of sacred Golden Temple and paid a correct price for that mistake.
One point you did not mention…Riots after Indira’ assassination. General people took part in riots against Sikhs. It is non-sense to blame one party or some miscreants. Yes the party goons started it, but people anger was also seen in the riots. You know the Bhinderwalan violence took a start in 1978..many innocents were killed…and all these years from 1978 to 1984 no one from Hindu side attacked or harassed any Sikh in general public, but the anger broke out when Sikh hands killed Indira Gandhi….basically not for Indira but it was an outbreak against eight years of ugly scenario by Bhinderwalan forces.
Off course innocents became target for none of their fault.
I assure you that those riots also could not destroy the Indian cultural integration. Sikhs who lost their relatives or home, property etc have grievance against court system, as they got no justice…but talk nothing against Hindus. (Except those living at some streets in London, or in Canada, who have been a financial force for Bhinderwalan movement but lost no body in Khalistan movements or in riots.)
I think, I am fair enough….if you have more arguments…you are welcome. After so many conflicts India is not disintegrated…it is real victory of our constitution.
Before,..we go discussing,… first here is some background:
HISTORICAL BACKGROUND
Located in the north of India , the Sikh Kingdom was the last to submit to the British conquest of India . They began non-violent resistance against British colonialism long before M.K.Gandhi and constituted 75% of those who died in the struggle for independence, despite constituting less than 2% of the population. During independence, the Sikhs cast their lot with the newly-emerging nation of India as a result of the assurance given by the first Prime Minister, Jawaharlal Nehru, that no constitution would be adopted without the approval of the Sikhs. Nehru and his political allies revoked their word despite the refusal of the Sikh delegation to sign the constitution in protest of the outrageously offensive content of the document.
To this day, no representative of the Sikhs has signed the Indian constitution. This was the first act in a long and sad tale of repeated betrayal.
For over thirty years the Sikhs employed parliamentary means to voice their opposition to the prevalent direction of national policy. The salient points of dispute included the Constitutional status of the Sikh religion, the formation of a Sikh majority state in Punjab , recognition of their mother tongue (Punjabi), and numerous other political, economic and social grievances. In the early 1980’s, out of frustration from the insincere posture and outright hostility of the Government during negotiations, the Sikhs launched a massive non-violent protest campaign to gain the government’s attention and force it to the bargaining table in good faith. The government responded by arresting and torturing the peaceful protesters who exercised their democratic rights.
Since the 1920s, Sikhs have experienced many struggles concerning their status within India and their demands for Khalistan.
Sikhs Gain, Then Lose Majority Status
During the 1920s and 1930s, the movement for independence from Great Britain gained steam. Sikhs felt increasingly threatened by the political and religious activism between both Muslims and Hindus. Generally, Sikhs allied with Hindus to counterbalance the power of the Muslims, who made up a majority in most areas of the Punjab.
When independence was achieved and the partitioning of the Punjab occurred in 1947most Sikhs fled to the Punjab area of India. In 1948, the Indian government combined the Punjab’s princely states into one unit, called Pepsu, which had a Sikh majority. Encouraged by gaining a majority status, the Shiromani Akali Dal, the chief political party of nationalistic Sikhs, began to call for a Sikh state within the Indian union.
Fearing that the Sikhs might demand greater autonomy or even independence, Jawharlal Nehru tried to weaken Sikh political strength by combining Sikhs and Hindus into a larger state. In 1956 the Indian government merged Pepsu with other areas (today’s Haryana and parts of Himchal Pradesh) to create the state of Punjab. The government also declared that Punjab was a bilingual state with both Punjabi and Hindi being designated official languages. In the merged state, Sikhs made up only 35% of the population and lost the majority status they had held in Pepsu. Many Sikhs were angered by the Indian government’s actions.
You can read more about by Sikhs and their WHY ARE WE PROTESTING INDIA’S CLAIM OF BEING “THE WORLD’S LARGEST DEMOCRACY”?
Even today,..I never heard from any sikh who is praising India…Also I never heard from any sikh who blames Pakistan . check this out:
**India only for Hindus? **
Indians cannot complain about the treatment of the Hindu and Sikh minorities in Pakistan and Bangladesh if they themselves treat non-Hindus as second class citizens. The country has given birth to the most amount of religions in the world… its greatest leaders and personalities treated everyone with respect. Its time we took guidance from great people, and not the idiots in India and put aside this pride inspired hatred.
Are you sure,..the sikh movements are just gone and everything is back to normal now,…? Bhinderwalan,..is gone,..but many more are there to create problems…It was not just one person’s movement…read the following: About sikhs history,..
The Sikhs had ruled Punjab from 1765 to 1849. India’s response to Khalistan’s declaration of independence has been to set up the repression against the Sikh nation. Today Khalistan lives under the occupation of 500,000 Indian troops–more troops than the British stationed in the entire subcontinent at any time during their rule.
My criticism is the Continuous Breach of consititution during and after Indira Gandhi time,…here are the facts,…As per US library of Congress…
**Here are some relevant facts about India and Indian-occupied Khalistan: **
Indian newspapers recently reported that 25,000 Sikhs were either cremated as `unclaimed bodies.’ or thrown in canals and rivers.
The White Paper on State Terrorism in Punjab cites S.S. Ray, Indian Ambassador to the U.S., as the butcher of Bengal' and the butcher of Punjab.’
Over 41,000 cash bounties were paid to police officers for killing Sikhs, according to the US State Dept.
Over 120,000 Sikhs killed since 1984.
Over 150,000 Christians killed since 1947. Over 43,000 Kashmiri Muslims killed since 1988.
Tens of thousands more languish in Indian prisons without charge or trial.
Amnesty International reports hundreds of Sikhs have disappeared.
Asia Watch reports `virtually everyone detained in Punjab is tortured.’
Police operate over 200 torture centers (police stations) in Punjab, Khalistan.
Police routinely pick up Sikh youths and demand ransom of tens of thousands of rupees for their safe release. Otherwise, the youths are tortured and killed.
Sikhs who die of torture are listed as being killed in an `encounter’ with the police.
Despite the recent repeal of TADA, the other `Black Laws’, giving the regime sweeping powers to detain anyone for any reason and kill Sikhs without fear of persecution, remain on the books.
India has not allowed Amnesty International to conduct an independent human-rights investigation in Punjab, Khalistan, since 1978.
India recently attacked an ancient mosque in Kashmir which houses the mausoleum of the venerated Sheik Nooruddin Wali. In December 1992, Hindus destroyed the Babri mosque in Ayodhya.
In June 1984, India attacked the Golden Temple in Amritsar, the holiest shrine of the Sikh Nation.
The Chicago Tribune reports that a nun was stabbed 36 times by right-wing Hindu fundamentalists. By these actions, India displays its religious intolerance.
The Indian newspaper Hitavada reported in November that the late Governor of Punjab, Surendra Nath, was paid $1.5 billion by the Indian regime to foment terrorism in Punjab, Khalistan, and in Kashmir.
The State Department says that the human-rights situation is getting worse.
No Sikh has ever signed the Indian constitution.
The Sikh leadership declared Khalistan independent on October 7, 1987.
The movement to liberate Khalistan is peaceful, democratic, and nonviolent.
Former Member of Parliament Simranjit Singh Mann has been held in a windowless cell for four months for the `crime’ of speaking out for Khalistan.
The Supreme Court of India ruled that asking for Khalistan is not a crime.
According to India Abroad, 96 percent of the Sikhs in Punjab, Khalistan did not vote in India’s February 1992 elections there.
India has 500,000 troops in Punjab, occupied Khalistan, alone–more than Britain had in the entire subcontinent during its rule.
Khalistan, Kashmir, and Nagaland continue to be denied their right to self-determination.
India has 18 official languages. It is a polyglot like the former Soviet Union. It is not one country.
May 1995–Indian troops in Kashmir burn to the ground the centuries-old walnut wood mosque in Charar-e-Sharies, along with hundreds of homes around it.
December 1992–Hindu mobs destroy the historic Babri Mosque in Ayodhya as Indian troops stand by and watch.
December 1992–Gurdev Singh Kaonke, one of the most revered leaders of the Sikh religion, is arrested, tortured and killed in police custody.
June 1984–Indian soldiers launch an all out attack on the Golden Temple in Amritsar, the holiest shrine of the Sikh religion. 38 other temples throughout Punjab are attacked, killing thousands of Sikhs.
Asia Watch: `Virtually everyone detained in Punjab is tortured.’
Amnesty International: `Torture (in Punjab and Kashmir) and illtreatment is widespread and in some cases systematic, resulting in scores of deaths in police custody.’
State Department Human Rights Report (1994): Over 41,000 cash bounties were paid to police in Punjab for extrajudicial killings of Sikhs between 1991 and 1993.
[US Congressioanl Record, Page: E1141 ]
Extrajudicial murders of Sikh youth are a common occurrence. Between 1986 and 1994, 6,017 unidentified Sikh victims of Indian police were cremated in the District of Amritsar alone. There are 13 districts in Punjab. It has been estimated that security forces have had over 25,000 unidentified Sikhs cremated or dumped in rivers during this period.
In January 1995, the water level of the Sirhind Canal was lowered for repair work. One dozen bodies of young Sikh torture victims were found at the bottom of just one shore section of the canal with the hands and feet bound. There are hundreds of miles of the canals through the province.
In January 1993, Indian paramilitary forces in Kashmir burnt to death at least 65 Kashmiri civilians in the town of Sopore. Soldiers deliberately set fire to five separate areas of the town. They also dragged shopkeepers out of their shops and shot them in the streets. The torching of entire Kashmiri villages by Indian forces is a common tactic.
In 1994, Sikh activist Kanwar Singh Dhami was imprisoned along with his pregnant wife and son. He and his wife were tortured in front of each other. When the police were unable to extract an untrue confession from Mr. Dhami, they hung his wife up by her heels (she was six months pregnant) forcing her to have a miscarriage.
In Amritsar district in 1993, Indian police brought a Sikh youth they had tortured and thought was dead to the hospital for an autopsy. After the police left, the doctors discovered that the young man was miraculously still alive and revived him. The police returned several hours later after hearing that the man was alive. They took him out of the hospital, killed him again, and brought him back to the same hospital for his autopsy.
The U.S. State Department reports that from 1991 through 1993, the Indian regime paid more than 41,000 cash bounties to police officers for killing Sikhs. In November 1994, the Indian newspaper Hitavada reported that the late governor of Punjab, Surendra Nath, was paid $1.5 billion to organize and support covert state terrorism in Punjab, Khalistan, and in neighboring Kashmir. Seventy-five percent of Punjab’s water has been diverted to nonriparian states. India is a police state, not a democracy at all.
Mrs. Gandhi had won the battle but had lost the hearts and souls of her Sikh countrymen. Sikhs worldwide were reduced to tears by the attack on the Golden Temple. The soul of the Sikhs had been violated. The question was being asked in every Sikh household: Was it really necessary to send the army in? Was it necessary to drag out the negotiations on Sikh demands until they reached such a tragic climax?
The wounds created by the attack on the Golden Temple would take a long time to heal, but just when it looked like the brave saint-soldiers were beginning to forgive, another tragic event occurred. Two Sikhs, acting in isolation, had made up their minds to avenge the attack on the Golden Temple.
Every movement has some financial backing,..which is directly proportional to the cause of that movement…which is still going on…
Here as follows:
The U.S. State Department reported in its 1994 country report on India that between 1991 and 1993 the Indian government paid over 41,000 cash bounties to police officers for killing Sikhs. The Indian state has also killed over 200,000 Christians in Nagaland, more than 43,000 Muslims in Kashmir, and tens of thousands of Manipuris, Assamese, and others. Furthermore, Dalits (“untouchables” - lowest Hindu caste) have been killed by the thousands. According to Physicians For Human Rights in their report on Kashmir, “Indian troops have embarked on a ‘catch and kill’ campaign against Muslim militants…including summary executions of hundreds of detainees in the custody of security forces…assaults of medical workers, rape, torture, and arson… a testament to the failure of the Indian government’s attempt to resolve crisis through force.”
When you read all the above and then you tell me,…..what’s happening,…
Here is the material from British House of Commons as follows:
EDM 663—Violation of human rights of Sikhs in India
That this House notes and applauds the efforts of human rights activists in India to highlight atrocities, including false imprisonment, torture, deaths in custody, extra-judicial executions and disappearances, perpetrated against Sikhs in the last 20 years; further notes that it is estimated that over 250,000 Sikhs have been murdered and/or disappeared since June 1984; is deeply concerned that 20 years later the Indian Government continues to deny full access to Punjab to international human rights groups and to the UN Rapporteur on Torture; regrets that thousands of families are still waiting to know the fate of relatives who have disappeared; and calls on the Prime Minister, on behalf of the estimated 700,000 Sikhs in the United Kingdom, to lead the international community in demanding full access to Punjab to international human rights groups and the UN.
In all, more than 150,000 Sikhs have been murdered in India since 1984. In addition, there have been murders of over 200,000 Christians in Nagaland since 1947, more than 43,000 Muslims in Kashmir since 1988, tens of thousands of Assamese, Manipuris, and others, and thousands of Dalits `black untouchables’. The State Department reported in 1994 that between 1991 and 1993, the Indian regime paid over 41,000 cash bounties to police officers for killing Sikhs.
Army attack on Golden Temple….yes, a crime which Indira Gandhi had committedIts a crime.. was it not crime for the Bhinderwala gang to hold up in the temple which they concidered secred. The only thing they wanted was to hold the piligrim as a shield against the army. Operation Blue star had to take place if there was terrorist hold up in the temple. Be it Indira Gandhi or Manmohan Singh, they would have done the same things. A bunch of terrorist cannot hold the country into ransome. If a temple has to be demolished, if a mosque has to be demolished.. then the army should do it. Many of these officers who were commanding the army were Sikhs themselved. India at that time feared that Pakistan is going to invade in support of Khalistan. So operation had to be done quickly and with minimal damage. Their aim was bhinderwala. If the then prime mininster payed the price then let it be, i dont care..
I agree with you that terrorists,..must not be allowed to hide behind religious curtains,…I know…I am not advocating for bhinderwala here,…My point was and is,…what led to that event,…when these seeds of hate started…even though indian consititution gives protection to all minorities,…then why Muslims,..Sikhs and christians are feeling helplessness,…If you read the following:
The U.S. State Department reports that from 1991 through 1993, the Indian regime paid more than 41,000 cash bounties to police officers for killing Sikhs. In November 1994, the Indian newspaper Hitavada reported that the late governor of Punjab, Surendra Nath, was paid $1.5 billion to organize and support covert state terrorism in Punjab, Khalistan, and in neighboring Kashmir. Seventy-five percent of Punjab’s water has been diverted to nonriparian states. India is a police state, not a democracy at all.
There is always a root cause of these problems,…for that we go back and then find out,…what happened,…this is what we are discussing,…here.
BTW,…Indian should have known better @ that time,..that Pakistan will never invade,..Coz,..City of Lahore is in Pakistan,…not in India…
Also,..as per Indian PM paying the price for her mistake is concerned,..Sikhs & other Minorities are having same kind a problems til today,…too…
So how good is a Indian consititution,…which doesn’t give equal protection to its all citizens including minorities,…India being the secular and democratic country in the world,…must address this issue…
this is what happens,..when there is a breach of constitution ,…as follows:
Over 41,000 cash bounties were paid to police officers for killing Sikhs, according to the US State Dept.
Over 120,000 Sikhs killed since 1984.
Over 150,000 Christians killed since 1947. Over 43,000 Kashmiri Muslims killed since 1988.
what is equal protection tariq.. india does not discriminate between any religion. Every muslim or sikh has the right to practice his religion without worrying. I think in India it does have more freedom than some of the western countries.
U should come to India and see for urself.
The problem with the sikh started when the bhinderwala gang started assuming himself to be a prophet and started giving inflamatory statment against India, and he was very good in that. http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/jun/03inter.htm. U can have the other side of the story from the guy who was in charge of the operation.
If a hindu wants to revolt against the state he will be put down in the same way as muslim or a sikh would be. There are revolts in many parts of india.. and the police fire at them irrespective wheather they are muslims or christian or sikhs. Yes some police are corrupt but tell me where there is no corruption.Are they no racism in US or UK or elsewhere.
Indian forces went into SriLanka to keep peace and tame the LTTE. The tamils are mostly Hindus.. but indian guns were aimed at them. Many tamilians still feel the pain of the peace keeping mission. It went horribly wrong, honestly.They will not forget India for that. And again another prime minister payed for that as well.But at that moment it was needed, to keep peace and to keep the territory in check. When u have a nice neighbour sitting across looking to fish in troubled water then one should be very alert. ;).
The U.S. State Department reports that from 1991 through 1993, the Indian regime paid more than 41,000 cash bounties to police officers for killing Sikhs. In November 1994, the Indian newspaper Hitavada reported that the late governor of Punjab, Surendra Nath, was paid $1.5 billion to organize and support covert state terrorism in Punjab, Khalistan, and in neighboring Kashmir. Seventy-five percent of Punjab’s water has been diverted to nonriparian states. India is a police state, not a democracy at all**.
Now you tell me,..if this Bhinderwala had a small group or movement,…then,… why $ 1.5 Billion dollars,…were wasted…I hope you know,..how big this amount can be,…coming from national treasury,…and for what purpose,…
US state dept,…Uses,..CIA,.. and their own intelligence wing,..plus,..all US embassies in the world,..collect these kind information of the country they are in,…
I don’t think they are ever wrong,…Coz,.if they would have been wrong in this case,..then India would have challenged it ,…which they never did,…
Don’t under estimate them,…they know more than what they are suppose too,.. .
BTW,..I quoted,..reports from Library of US congress too,… And you will be surprised to know that,..Congressman **Dan Burton **and,..**Peter King **are,..pro-Indian congress men in US congress,…
who said binderwallah was a small group..he was a great orator.. he incited sikh passion and wanted seperate homeland. He was about to declare Khalistan. The Punjabi police were switching sides.. India had to act and acted with minimum casualty.. and any way.. after the blue star operation do u think the sikhs would have remained calm.. the temple which is the simbol of their religion had blood all over it.. but soon the peaple of Punjab realised that Khalistan is never going to happen again..
. It was pakistan my dear. Do u want to be proud of that.
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