[quote]
Originally posted by FactFinder:
** I know some people who are living in Jeddah. They will not go to Makkah as frequently as they do to Madinah. Isn't this shirk? If not, I think they are on the border line and only Allah knows their intentions.
**
[/quote]
Lol hahaha
I have heard so many funny shirk and bida according to the wahhbis. That one is the nice one. Visiting makkah more then vising medina is shirk??? LOL (on the floor)
Try to perfect yourselves before going unto others. This goes to all of you who think that you are right and they are wrong. These days almost everyone wants to become a critique/questioner rather than improve themselves.
This age old fight won’t reside today nor tomorrow so learn to live with it. Allah will see what is right and wrong; just do your part on what you feel is right instead of listening to every tom dick and harry.
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Jitna Diya Sarkar Nay Mujko, Itni Meri Auqat Nahi, Yeh Saab Tumhara Karam Hai Aqa, Mujh Mein Aisi Koi Baat Nahin.
Love happens once . . .
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well said and thats what modren day muslim delimma is.
[quote]
implying the fact that Allah gave permission to certain pious ppl to intercede.
[/quote]
I'm surprised. You appear quite well informed but you seriously hold this opinion about this particular verse? Do you seriously think this verse ALLOWS calling on other than Allah for help or has Allah hinted He may let those He allows to intercede?
There's a difference you know.
(az-Zumar 39:44) Say, `All intercession rests with ALLAH. To HIM belongs the Kingdom of the heavens and the earth. And to HIM, then, shall you be brought back.'
(al-A`raf 7:194) Verily those whom ye call upon besides God are servants like unto you: Call upon them, and let them listen to your prayer, if ye are (indeed) truthful!
I'll leave it upto you to decide.
These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?(45:6)
[This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited November 24, 2001).]
[quote]
Originally posted by iqra_786:
**
Well I remember few days back a member of Saudi royal family wanted to donate some money towards wtc and he mentioned that only Saudis are wahhabi. **
[/quote]
Show me proof. Not from a Barelvi or Shea site, from some independent source.
[quote]
Originally posted by iqra_786:
**
The reason why wahhabi don’t want to call themselves whahbis is cos it has very bad history.
**
[/quote]
What history?
salam this is form shia adn barelive newspaper :rolleye:
an articel form independent newspaper. i wish ppl would read newspapers adn keep up to date 2 the world.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=98951
**Saudi donates $10 million to WTC fund **
By Katherine Roth, Associated Press
11 October 2001
A Saudi prince criticised US policies in the Middle East while visiting the World Trade Center ruins and presenting Mayor Rudolph Giuliani with a $10 million cheque for relief efforts.
Prince Alwaleed bin Talal, a nephew a Saudi King Fahd and one of the world’s richest men, toured “ground zero” and called the attacks “a tremendous crime.”
“It’s just unbelievable,” he said. “We are here to tell America and to tell New York that Saudi Arabia is with the United States wholeheartedly.”
But in a statement distributed by an aide, the prince said that "at times like this one we must address some of the issues that led to such a criminal attack.
“I believe the government of the United States of America should re-examine its policies in the Middle East and adopt a more balanced stance toward the Palestinian cause. Our Palestinian brethren continue to be slaughtered at the hands of Israelis while the world turns the other cheek.”
Alwaleed is chairman of Kingdom Holding Co. and was sixth on Forbes magazine’s list of the world’s richest men for 2001.
He did not criticize US policies in his speech, saying instead, “I came here to show my allegiance to New York.”
Alwaleed said prime terrorism suspect Osama bin Laden,** a Saudi, does not represent the Wahabi sect of Islam, which is practiced only in Saudi Arabia. **
*“This has nothing to do with Wahabis at all, at all,” *he said. “This guy does not belong to Wahabis. He does not belong to Islam or any religion in the whole world.”
In his statement the prince added, “I speak for all Muslims, Arabs and Saudis when I say that we represent the absolute antithesis of terror. My mission is to bridge East and West. I also want to reiterate Saudi Arabia’s stance in condemning all forms of terrorism.”
[quote]
Originally posted by OASis:
**
What history? **
[/quote]
pls read up!!!! i siaid this many time in my previous posts in this thread.
[This message has been edited by iqra_786 (edited November 25, 2001).]
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
** I'm surprised. You appear quite well informed but you seriously hold this opinion about this particular verse? Do you seriously think this verse ALLOWS calling on other than Allah for help or has Allah hinted He may let those He allows to intercede?
There's a difference you know.
(az-Zumar 39:44) Say, `All intercession rests with ALLAH. To HIM belongs the Kingdom of the heavens and the earth. And to HIM, then, shall you be brought back.'
(al-A`raf 7:194) Verily those whom ye call upon besides God are servants like unto you: Call upon them, and let them listen to your prayer, if ye are (indeed) truthful!
I'll leave it upto you to decide.
**
[/quote]
Salam
Non of my questions towards pro wahhabi/.salafi br/sr is not answered. For example regarding intersession, do u reject the haddith which says that one the day of judgement we will ask Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to intercede for us? R not u pppl gona ask him to intercede on ur behalf? Will that be consider to be according to wahhabi standard shirk to ask Prophet to intercede on our behalf?
And br/sr PakistaniAbroad could you please read wot I have said property instead of making assumption. Its seems like u r finding it hard ot grasp the meaning of wot I am on abt (and it may be cos I am confusing). Let me make it clear.
If we get help from any body, we do it with the understanding that he by his own can not help us. He can not benefit us unless Allah wishes to. If one calls Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF), or ibn abbas or imam shaffi call Imam Ali (AS) for help, they are, in fact, calling Allah for help through intermediary of the Prophet or the Imams, and they do that with the understanding that the Prophet or the Imams do not have any independent power, but rather what they have (which many others lack) is CREDIT in front of Allah and that Allah does not put down their requests if they pray to Allah on our behalf.
Now br/sr Pakistani abroad, do u consider the fact that in various verse sin sura bakara (such as 68,61 etc) where children of israil ask mosa ot pray, ask Allah for various thing, do u consider them to be doing shirk i.e asking other besides Allah, why not ask Allah directly instead of using Musa as an intermedium? Did not musa (as) realise that they were ‘calling’ him hence doing ‘shirk’!! instead of Allah?
Now Let me present you few Ayat, in which Allah tells us to seek a wasila to get to Allah:
These verse are from Abdullah Yousuf Alis text translation and commentary fo the holy quran published by Rajhi publishers.
Sura X-Junus V.3
*"Verily your lord is God who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the Throne (of Authority) regulating and governing all things.
No intercessor (can plead with Him) EXCEPT after His Leave (has been obtained)..." *
Sura XiX- Maryam. V 87
"*And we shall drive the sinners to hell. like thirsty cattle driven down to water,-
None shall have the power of intercession, but such a one as has received permission (or promise) from God Most Gracious." *
S. XLiii Zukhruf. V 86
" *And those whom they invoke besides God hav eno power of intercession, only he who bears withness to the truth and they Know (him)" *
S. Liii-Najm V 20 **
"How many so-ever be the angels in the heavens , their intercession will avail nothing except afetr God has given leave from whom He pleases and that he is acceptable to Him." **
Let us also look at a hadith:
Narrated Anas:
Whenever drought threatened them, Umar bin Al-Khattab, used to ask Al-Abbas binAbdul Muttalib to invoke Allah for rain. He used to say, "O Allah! We used to ask our Prophet to invoke You for rain, and You would bless us with rain, and now we ask his uncle to INVOKE YOU for rain. O Allah ! Bless us with rain." And so it would rain.
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2 # 123
As you can see Umar is asking Allah for rain with the wasila of Hazrat Abbas (ra).
[This message has been edited by iqra_786 (edited November 25, 2001).]
I'll leave the 'wahabi' answers for 'wahabi apologetics' I am against sectarianism.
Regarding the verses you quoted ALL of them indicate one thing .. NO one can intercede:
"except after His leave" (10:3)
"except one that has received covenant from Him" (ind ur Rehman e Ahdan) (19:87)
"except those who bear witness to the Truth" (43:86)
Even Angels can't intercede:
"except after Allah gives permission to whomsoever He wills and pleases." (53:26)
What I gather is that the Power of intercession rests with Allah. He will allow whomever He pleases to intercede and rather than try and find loopholes to justify calling other than Allah let's embrace the spirit of the message which is to Call on Allah ALONE.
(az-Zumar 39:45) And when ALLAH alone is mentioned, the hearts of those, who believe not in the Hereafter, shrink with aversion; but when those beside HIM are mentioned, behold ! they begin to rejoice.
Allah Knows Best
These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?(45:6)
[quote]
Originally posted by iqra_786:
**
Narrated Anas:
Whenever drought threatened them, Umar bin Al-Khattab, used to ask Al-Abbas binAbdul Muttalib to invoke Allah for rain. He used to say, "O Allah! We used to ask our Prophet to invoke You for rain, and You would bless us with rain, and now we ask his uncle to INVOKE YOU for rain. O Allah ! Bless us with rain." And so it would rain.
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2 # 123
As you can see Umar is asking Allah for rain with the wasila of Hazrat Abbas (ra).
[This message has been edited by iqra_786 (edited November 25, 2001).]**
[/quote]
dont worry iqra i will answer ur questions..but i dont have time now so let me answer the last point...see, after the death of prophet, they asked for the living abbas RT for invocation..meaning you cant ask for invocation from the dead. or why would umar RT not ask prophet for invocation???
[quote]
Originally posted by iqra_786:
**
Salam
Non of my questions towards pro wahhabi/.salafi br/sr is not answered. For example regarding intersession, do u reject the haddith which says that one the day of judgement we will ask Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to intercede for us? R not u pppl gona ask him to intercede on ur behalf? Will that be consider to be according to wahhabi standard shirk to ask Prophet to intercede on our behalf?
And br/sr PakistaniAbroad could you please read wot I have said property instead of making assumption. Its seems like u r finding it hard ot grasp the meaning of wot I am on abt (and it may be cos I am confusing). Let me make it clear.
If we get help from any body, we do it with the understanding that he by his own can not help us. He can not benefit us unless Allah wishes to. If one calls Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF), or ibn abbas or imam shaffi call Imam Ali (AS) for help, they are, in fact, calling Allah for help through intermediary of the Prophet or the Imams, and they do that with the understanding that the Prophet or the Imams do not have any independent power, but rather what they have (which many others lack) is CREDIT in front of Allah and that Allah does not put down their requests if they pray to Allah on our behalf.
Now br/sr Pakistani abroad, do u consider the fact that in various verse sin sura bakara (such as 68,61 etc) where children of israil ask mosa ot pray, ask Allah for various thing, do u consider them to be doing shirk i.e asking other besides Allah, why not ask Allah directly instead of using Musa as an intermedium? Did not musa (as) realise that they were ‘calling’ him hence doing ‘shirk’!! instead of Allah?
Now Let me present you few Ayat, in which Allah tells us to seek a wasila to get to Allah:
These verse are from Abdullah Yousuf Alis text translation and commentary fo the holy quran published by Rajhi publishers.
Sura X-Junus V.3
*"Verily your lord is God who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the Throne (of Authority) regulating and governing all things.
No intercessor (can plead with Him) EXCEPT after His Leave (has been obtained)..." *
Sura XiX- Maryam. V 87
"*And we shall drive the sinners to hell. like thirsty cattle driven down to water,-
None shall have the power of intercession, but such a one as has received permission (or promise) from God Most Gracious." *
S. XLiii Zukhruf. V 86
" *And those whom they invoke besides God hav eno power of intercession, only he who bears withness to the truth and they Know (him)" *
S. Liii-Najm V 20 **
"How many so-ever be the angels in the heavens , their intercession will avail nothing except afetr God has given leave from whom He pleases and that he is acceptable to Him." **
Let us also look at a hadith:
Narrated Anas:
Whenever drought threatened them, Umar bin Al-Khattab, used to ask Al-Abbas binAbdul Muttalib to invoke Allah for rain. He used to say, "O Allah! We used to ask our Prophet to invoke You for rain, and You would bless us with rain, and now we ask his uncle to INVOKE YOU for rain. O Allah ! Bless us with rain." And so it would rain.
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2 # 123
As you can see Umar is asking Allah for rain with the wasila of Hazrat Abbas (ra).
[This message has been edited by iqra_786 (edited November 25, 2001).]**
[/quote]
An exercise in futilityis the best definition I can give.
The fact is:
To ask a living person to ask Allah is allowed.
To ask Rasool Alalh for help on the Day of Judgement is allowed.
Intercession by relatives on the Day of Judgement is allowed.
These are not shirk. The ayat and ahadeeth you have quoted prove this.
What becomes shirk is to ask the dead to intercede. If you see the difference, you will appreciate why. If not, may Allah guide you.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
Sherazz, only Allah is the watcher over all of us. He sees and HEARS everything and judges accordingly. He does not need intercession of a dead person to hear or see our problems and concerns. Our connection with him is direct and simple-as he says in Quraan that he is closer to us than or neck…!
Allah also says that no one intercedes for anyone without his permission, please tell us where did Allah authorized Ali to intercede for you or for rest of shias in this worldly life???!!!
Please also shed some light on if a dead person can hear you-when Allah says to Prophet Mohammed(saw) that he cannot make dead hear or see, if our beloved prophet couldn’t do it. Who gave shias authority to claim that Ali can help us given that he hears and sees our problems in his grave?
Same kind of mentatlity leads to rishwat-khori and other corrupt problems in society. Where people ‘think’ that they need help of so and so person to get help of some high ranked official. I don’t think GOD works that way, he is our master, our creator, sustainer of our world-I think, he directly wants to be concerned about issues and he is very able to do that. He doesn’t need dead ministers to hear our see our problems. Simple logic and common sense, if you see it.
I am never jealous of person who commits shirk openly and says others are jealous of him. That is most cowardly excuse I have seen from a person who wants to run from an argument not in his favor. QUraish use to say the same thing about their clay-gods. Abdullah bin saba(jew convert to Islam) did his work very right and today all over the world shias reflect that. Just read your books(Do you know what they are, names, etc.?) and know it your self, instead of relying on us and defending your corrupt beliefs blindly. Ismaelis, a branch of shiaism has its own religion. Carved out be their step-fathers in England during the imperial days so they can eat Islam from within, like Qadianiyaat and other larvas of which we will see results in coming years. Whats next? Shia, Ismaeli and Qadiani brotherhood against sunnis?
Now to taliban issue:
Do you know what happened during 1992-1995>? Do you know what your hazaara brothers accompanied by Dogs from NA did to Afghans and particularly to sunnis? A person, who lacks knowledge about his own religion and books of his own faith, wouldn’t know allot about history, history of poorest nation on earth. You only hate Taliban because they are sunni, you regret that your shia brothers failed to bring peace and order and stability in Aghanistan, which suffers from over 20 years of civil/war. I admit, Taliban did some things very stupidity as far as diplomacy and making friends is concerned but over all for their country they were the best choice; considering the corrupt and mischievous leaders of NA-the likes of Masood, Fahim, Rabbani and that old fart, Zahir Shah.
You need history lesson before you get one on Shiaism. As a matter of fact you need lesson in Shiaism before you get one in History…either way you’ll get rid of some ignorance, hopefully.
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Leslie Stahl: “We have heard that a half million children have died (as a result of sanctions against Iraq). I mean, that is more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?” Madeleine Albright: “I think this is a very hard choice, but the price, we think the price is worth it.” – A CBS Sixty Minutes interview between Leslie Stahl and U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, on 12 May 1996