Assalam o Alaikum!
In one of the posts a brother has asked a very relevant question. He wants to know why the shias are against the Taliban, even though the Taliban are introducing Shariah.
Can we have a serious discussion, with everybody keeping his cool and using only parliamentary language.
Wassalam
talibans are nothing but bunch of thugs..they have killed thousands of shias living in afghanistan..raped thousand of shia women..look what they have done to the afghani women..women cant study..which religion says that women cant study or work?? even Prophet married a business woman..talibans are makin their own religion..but khair acha hi hai ..khas kam jahan paak
Where is the answer to the quetsion raised. You have just come up with a rhetoric of stereotyped attacks on the Taliban. Are they imposing the Shariah of the Prophet (sallallaho alaihe wasallam) or aren't they?
If not, give evidence not wild accusations.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
[quote]
Originally posted by FactFinder:
**Assalam o Alaikum!
In one of the posts a brother has asked a very relevant question. He wants to know why the shias are against the Taliban, even though the Taliban are introducing Shariah.
Can we have a serious discussion, with everybody keeping his cool and using only parliamentary language.
Wassalam**
[/quote]
Teleban preaches wahhbaism which Is not recognised by neither sunni or shia ulema. Teleban was created by America with the help from CIA in Pakistan . one of the main objective was to isolate iran and attach shias.
Its funny how Pakistan goes on supporting USA to attack teleban which they have created just like they did similar game with saddam Hussain. Yet Iran refused to corporate with west with its ‘war coalitions’ even went as far as saying they will shot down if any USA military plane flies over Iran to attack Afghanistan.
And as for shariah, where in sharia made women education is banned? Where in sharia allows to flourish drug trade? there were recent interview with hamza yusuf in radio and tv. And he mention for instance cutting the hand of thief, its all depends on situation and afgansitan is a poor country and government doesn’t provide food for all or most of its citizen. At the time of second caliph omar, he banned the punishment of cutting the hand of thief due to the fact that it was faming at that time.
factfinder i suppose u treat ur women like taleban treats theirs..enough said
iqra nice job
FF,
First, you have to prove that what the Taliban is implementing is actually the true shariah.
Could the shias be against the Taliban because in their opinion, the Talibanic so called shariah is not the shariah of our holy prophet (pbuh) ?
Shias are against Taleban cause Taleban kicked Hisb-e-wahdat out of the scene from Afghaistan.
[quote]
Originally posted by iqra_786:
** Teleban preaches wahhbaism which Is not recognised by neither sunni or shia ulema.**
[/quote]
What is Wahabiism according to your understanding? And why do you say that it is not recognised by the ulema?
**
[quote]
Teleban was created by America with the help from CIA in Pakistan . one of the main objective was to isolate iran and attach shias.
Its funny how Pakistan goes on supporting USA to attack teleban which they have created just like they did similar game with saddam Hussain. Yet Iran refused to corporate with west with its ‘war coalitions’ even went as far as saying they will shot down if any USA military plane flies over Iran to attack Afghanistan.**
[/quote]
This is political and out of context here.
**
[quote]
And as for shariah, where in sharia made women education is banned? Where in sharia allows to flourish drug trade? there were recent interview with hamza yusuf in radio and tv. And he mention for instance cutting the hand of thief, its all depends on situation and afgansitan is a poor country and government doesn’t provide food for all or most of its citizen. At the time of second caliph omar, he banned the punishment of cutting the hand of thief due to the fact that it was faming at that time. **
[/quote]
The question assumes that shariah is being implemented. We are not discussing whether Taliban are correct or not.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
I try to treat them as the Shariah reqquires. The Taliban also treats them the same, apparently. Is there anything wrong with the Shariah?
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah:
**FF,
First, you have to prove that what the Taliban is implementing is actually the true shariah.
Could the shias be against the Taliban because in their opinion, the Talibanic so called shariah is not the shariah of our holy prophet (pbuh) ?**
[/quote]
The question assumes that Taliban is implementing Shariah. Taliban's correctness is not the issue here.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
I dont some of the extreme measures taken by Talibans during their rule.. that were not Islamic but the so called Northern Alliance human rights record is sadly more worse..they killed more than 50,000 people in their rule before Talibans..and are still kiiling people just because they have another faith .. worse part is they even cross immunity sanctioned by UN Charter and Islam too; to ambassoders.. remember what they did to Pakistan's embassy.. its so shameful how they are butchering innocent people and Talibans alike these days..
salam
My understandign comes form sunni sources. Wahhabism has certain belief, which are contrary to the belief of islam (both shais and sunni). They gave Allah a physical form, limits Him in space and they have a bad history of massacring Muslims in the name of ‘bida’ ‘shirk; etc in the holy palces (mecca and medina) and they have conquered saudi arabia and spreading their bida to the rest of the world. Ibn Abdul wahhabs has been rejected by sunni ulema. Wahhabis get their ideas form ibn taymiya who was put in death by sunnis ulema.
*” It is stripped-down Islam, calling for simple, short prayers, undecorated mosques, and the uprooting of gravestones (since decorated mosques and graveyards lend themselves to veneration, which is idolatry in the Wahhabi mind). Wahhabis do not even permit the name of the Prophet Mohammed to be inscribed in mosques, nor do they allow his birthday to be celebrated. Above all, they hate ostentatious spirituality, much as Protestants detest the veneration of miracles and saints in the Roman Church.
Ibn Abdul Wahhab (1703-92), the founder of this totalitarian Islamism, was born in Uyaynah, in the part of Arabia known as Nejd, where Riyadh is today, and which the Prophet himself notably warned would be a source of corruption and confusion. (Anti-Wahhabi Muslims refer to Wahhabism as fitna an Najdiyyah or ‘the trouble out of Nejd’.) From the beginning of Wahhab’s dispensation, in the late 18th century, his cult was associated with the mass murder of all who opposed it. For example, the Wahhabis fell upon the city of Qarbala in 1801 and killed 2,000 ordinary citizens in the streets and markets. *
(http://www.sunnah.org/publication/fajr/fajr.htm)
(http://www.chretiens-et-juifs.org/Terrorisme/Saudi_connection.htm)
this is very in the context and we need to know the history before we judge any groups. Before we justly any action by certain so called Islamic groups/sects we need to know how and why they been set up and why. It’s a today’s knows fact that qadyanni was created by British but if we don’t investigate the history then we might end up believing qadyani is an Islamic sect.
we are talking about reality and not abt indian movie, we donot need to use our imagination rather truth is clear. So are you suggestion then I can go on killing people for no reason and say I am trying to implement ‘sharia’, will u justify my action by saying u r assuming I am implementing shariah?
The worst thing any groups can do is that use Islam and give a bad name to it, and that is the one of the way west trying to attack Islam by creating so called ‘Islamic’ groups and funding them.
It may be out of context but I wanna mention it, when teleban blew up buddah status, the CIA in usa said this expression ‘ we have created a monster’.
Btw I want to mention this that I donot support so called military action by usa/uk towards afgasnitan and killing innocent people. I dont want to see American in Afghanistan. At the end of the day I rather see teleban there then Americans. And this is the view hold by iran as well.
[This message has been edited by iqra_786 (edited November 23, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by iqra_786 (edited November 23, 2001).]
[quote]
Originally posted by FactFinder:
**
I try to treat them as the Shariah reqquires. The Taliban also treats them the same, apparently. Is there anything wrong with the Shariah?
**
[/quote]
where in shariah says u you have to bann women from education? where in shairah said u need ot chopp finger off for having nailpolsih? where in shairah require women to cover their face?
well all this can only be found on wahhabi sharia. if that what u follow. lakum di nukum laya deen.
[quote]
Originally posted by iqra_786:
** My understandign comes form sunni sources. Wahhabism has certain belief, which are contrary to the belief of islam (both shais and sunni). They gave Allah a physical form, limits Him in space and they have a bad history of massacring Muslims in the name of ‘bida’ ‘shirk; etc in the holy palces (mecca and medina) and they have conquered saudi arabia and spreading their bida to the rest of the world. Ibn Abdul wahhabs has been rejected by sunni ulema. Wahhabis get their ideas form ibn taymiya who was put in death by sunnis ulema.
” It is stripped-down Islam, calling for simple, short prayers, undecorated mosques, and the uprooting of gravestones (since decorated mosques and graveyards lend themselves to veneration, which is idolatry in the Wahhabi mind). Wahhabis do not even permit the name of the Prophet Mohammed to be inscribed in mosques, nor do they allow his birthday to be celebrated. Above all, they hate ostentatious spirituality, much as Protestants detest the veneration of miracles and saints in the Roman Church.**
[/quote]
The worst thing that a person can do is to believe in heresy. A lot of stuff that you hav written is nonsense. It just goes to show ignorance on the part of whoever wrote it.
The ulema who oppose the Shaikh ibn Taymiah and Shaikh Abdul Wahab teachings are those who believe in halwa manda.
Both these Shaikhs totally prohibited symbolic forms of remembrance. Which is excelent, as it removes any possibilities of shirk and bida.
They also removed the concept of Imams and different schools of thought. Before the time of Shaikh Abdul Wahab there were four different camps around the Ka'aba and, apparently, there were four adhans and jam'at for each prayer as the timings were different. This he dispensed with, for which Allah will give him ajr.
There is one sunni (so-called) aalim who used to come to Makkah and would not pray at the time of salat as he did not believe that the Islam that was being practiced in Makkah was correct. Astaghfir Allah. Is he the kind of man we should listen to? When Adhan and iqamah are announced, it becomes obligatory on all Muslims present to join. (Uqeemas Salat, Urkaoo ma ar Rakayeen, etc. are very clear indications)
just having a general read of this discussion as I am at work...
Unfortunately i do not yet know how to use the quote feature!!! but i quote FACT FINDER
.....the worst thing a person can do is beleive in heresy....
to good degree i agree with you but in your earlier post u also say
....The question assumes that shariah is being implemented. We are not discussing whether Taliban are correct or not....
????LOL!!!! what do u mean "ASSUMING" that TALIBAN are implementing shariah correctly!!! now that my friend is heresy!!!
Your whole question is based on "assuming that the taliban are correct". If you assume that the Taliban are correct then any one that condones them will be in the wrong.....HOWEVER if you assume that satan is correct then batil is haq...and haq is batil according to your thoery of assumption!
The point is if you want to know why Shia's dislike the Taliban...if you want to know why IRAN will not help the Taliban...its simple....religeon teached us to differntiate between Haq and Batil...in this case both are batil!!..we are neither with america nor with the terrorists!!!
[quote]
Originally posted by FactFinder:
*The worst thing that a person can do is to believe in heresy. A lot of stuff that you hav written is nonsense. It just goes to show ignorance on the part of whoever wrote it.
The ulema who oppose the Shaikh ibn Taymiah and Shaikh Abdul Wahab teachings are those who believe in halwa manda.
Both these Shaikhs totally prohibited symbolic forms of remembrance. Which is excelent, as it removes any possibilities of shirk and bida. *
[/quote]
Salam
If u talk abt herely then teleban is the perfect example of heresy. Wot I have said is from the sources I follow (i.e sunnism).
As I said in my ‘nonsense’ some of the belief of wahhabi are contrary to the principle of tawheed. I.e giving form to Allah (swt) astagfirullah and limiting Him in space. For this very reason ibn taymiya was put in death by Suuni ulema and his teachings are rejected.
As for wahhabis everyone is a disbeliever who doesn’t follow its teachings. And everything is bida and shirk which is not part of its teaching. Its bida to go to grave, bida to interceed etc which are very contrary to the original teaching of Islam and hence wahhabism in it self is bida since its came very late after Prophet (pbuh). It’s a new innovation after many centuries of Prophet (pbuh).
As for the Prophet (pbuh), wahhabis reduce him in the level of original human being and says things like he commit sin and mistakes.
[quote]
Originally posted by FactFinder: *They also removed the concept of Imams and different schools of thought. Before the time of Shaikh Abdul Wahab there were four different camps around the Ka'aba and, apparently, there were four adhans and jam'at for each prayer as the timings were different. This he dispensed with, for which Allah will give him ajr. *
[/quote]
I can imagine they would have removed the concept of prophethood if they could. Btw how did they manage to remove the diff school of thought and concept of immat? By massacring and declaring all as disbeliever whoever disagree with them in the holy places where we r not even allow to have battle.
According to my understanding, as for different school of thought, obviously there cant be right paths, rather one path, as it mention in sura fatiha ( show us to the right path), hence I believe jaffri (shia madhab) is the right path, having said that suunis madhabs are closer to the right path and that why shia ulema doesn’t reject sunnis rather they use sunni sources (and sometimes more then suunis, for instance even thought shias reject most of hadith of the sahi bukari yet they r the one who actually study it and investigate it.)
As for 4 diff adan and jamaat, in uk we dont have four diff mosque in each area for prayer rather all diff school of thought ppl pray in the same mosque. Even in jummah I see many people from diff school of thought yet we pray shoulder to shoulder.
[quote]
Originally posted by FactFinder: There is one sunni (so-called) aalim who used to come to Makkah and would not pray at the time of salat as he did not believe that the Islam that was being practiced in Makkah was correct. Astaghfir Allah. Is he the kind of man we should listen to? When Adhan and iqamah are announced, it becomes obligatory on all Muslims present to join. (Uqeemas Salat, Urkaoo ma ar Rakayeen, etc. are very clear indications)
[/quote]
not sure abt this certain individual, form wot I have heard is that if someone is the doubtful of the imam being genuine then he may refuse to pray behind that imam or perform the prayer again by himself alone later.
if I don’t agree with imam who is leading the prayer then I may not pray behind that imam but that is not an excuse not to pray salat on time. In worst case I can just pray on my own at home perhaps.
[quote]
Originally posted by iqra_786:
** where in shariah says u you have to bann women from education? where in shairah said u need ot chopp finger off for having nailpolsih? where in shairah require women to cover their face?
well all this can only be found on wahhabi sharia. if that what u follow. lakum di nukum laya deen.
**
[/quote]
Brother, this is all western propaganda. By the way, the what we are discussing is shia beliefs and why the shias are against Taliban. What you are giving is not reason why Shias dislike Taliban.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
to quote someone u can either click on ‘quote’ instead of clicking on ‘reply’.
to make bold bold /b]
to amke it like quote quote]originaly posted by whoever /quote]
just make sure you donot have spaces in the bracket.
for more info go to http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/ubbcode.html
salam
not brother this is a sister. (hope its ok to discuss being a sister
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
)
As for the ‘propoganda, this is what I have thought at first but when I have investigated and having heard from the afgan ppl ( well my friend did) it then I found out it was not the case. The reason why I mention is cos u mention that teleban implementing shariah but my point is this is not the case and that is one of the reason why shia ulema does not fancy teleban. And they have killed many shais and as I have mentioned before one of the reason to create teleban was to attack shias.
Ok here we go! Its form an article from impact magazine dated well back in November 1996. (page 18)
“Why did America want to create taliban?
Pakistan’s former Chief of Army staff General Mirza Aslam Baig believed the Teleban project had three main objective.
(1) to prevent Afghanistan falling under a ‘fundamentalist’ Islamic rule.
(2) to isolate and contain Iran;
(3) to prevent the spread of Iranian influence in Afghanistan and the central Asian States"
Allah hafez
(ps if I there is no more respond from me that means I am too much bombard with work
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/frown.gif
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/frown.gif
)
[quote]
Originally posted by iqra_786:
** not sure abt this certain individual, form wot I have heard is that if someone is the doubtful of the imam being genuine then he may refuse to pray behind that imam or perform the prayer again by himself alone later.
if I don’t agree with imam who is leading the prayer then I may not pray behind that imam but that is not an excuse not to pray salat on time. In worst case I can just pray on my own at home perhaps.
**
[/quote]
I do not know why the quotation does not appear in toto. Anyway, I shall go back and see your post to pick the points.
You talk about things that Shaiks ibn Taimyah and Abdul Wahab were against as bida and then say that their own ways were bidat because they came after the death of the Prophet. Can you please describe what is bidat according to you. According to my humble knowldege, anything that was not allowed by the Qur'an and Sunnah is bidat. Travelling to graves and making them places of worship is specifically prohibited by a hadeeth. Do you consider it bidat to implement that prohibition?
Then you talk of intercession. In the Qur'an Allah has said many times that He wants us to ask Him. He says that He is closer to us than the inner garment that we wear. Where does He say that we should go through intercessors and He will not listen to us directly?
Regarding salat, you have given the shia version of genuineness of the Imam and of praying alone if in doubt. This is not according to the Sunnah. The sunnah is that when there are two or more people, the one who knows the Qur'an most should lead the prayer. Period.
What I am trying to highlight in this chain is the difference in beliefs and how fundamental they are. Unfortunately, another shia has opened a discussion in another chain. This is defeating the purpose of the discussionand is keeping it separated.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.