Beliefs of shias

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

To those brothers and sisters who are not aware of shia beliefs, I reporduce a quotation from one of their sources in which the belief on Qur’an is categorically stated. But they will not admit this belief openly, as they believe that to lie to us about their beliefs is a virtue.

The quotaion:
A man said that someone was reciting the Quran in the company of Imam Ja’far. The narrator said that he heard certain verses in the recitation which were not according to the recitation of the people. Imam Ja’far told the person reciting: 'Do not recite like this. Recite as the people recite until the (promised) Mahdi arrives. When the Mahdi arrives, he will recite the Quran according to its original revelation and the Qu,ran compiled by Ali will be brought forward. (Ibid: 2.622)

For this and other quotations about their totally false beliefs go to: http://www.islamzine.com/ideologies/sects/shias/shia2.html

Their beliefs about the prominent personalities like Abu Bakr, Omar, Othman, Aisha, etc. (radhi Allaho anhum)are really worth reading. I am trying to find another book which really spills the beans about their beliefs. As soon as I find it on the web, I shall post the link, Insha Allah.

Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.

22

salam

[quote]
Originally posted by FactFinder:

*You talk about things that Shaiks ibn Taimyah and Abdul Wahab were against as bida and then say that their own ways were bidat because they came after the death of the Prophet. Can you please describe what is bidat according to you. According to my humble knowldege, anything that was not allowed by the Qur'an and Sunnah is bidat. Travelling to graves and making them places of worship is specifically prohibited by a hadeeth. Do you consider it bidat to implement that prohibition? *
[/quote]

For ur info br/sr I was being sarcastic. Wot I tried to implement is that while wahhbis goes on abt bida, newly innovation etc etc, they forget the fact that they r newly invented sect which didn’t come from the time of the prophet (pbuh). By ur defnaiton the bida is wot is not allowed by Quran and suuna, well driving car was not mentioned in quran or suuna, r u implying that its bida to drive a car? Also I cant recall of mention the word ‘wahhabism’ in quran and suunah. Doesn’t it imply by ur definition that wahhabism is bida too?
Prophet himself used ot visit grave and make dua for the decreed. He used ot visit to his sons’ grave. Fatime (ra) used to visit to prophet (pbuh) grave and used ot spent most of the time there. Do u consider they were doing bida as well? infact I heard form haddiht that we r encourage to go to grave since its remind us abt death.

[quote]
Originally posted by FactFinder:
Then you talk of intercession. In the Qur'an Allah has said many times that He wants us to ask Him. He says that He is closer to us than the inner garment that we wear. Where does He say that we should go through intercessors and He will not listen to us directly?
[/quote]

according to the famous haddith in the haddith ul qursi, on the day of judgement we will go to lots of other prophet to ask them to intercede for us and only prophet Muhammad (pbuh) will be able to intercede for us on that day. Do u reject that?
Also interceding doesn’t mean we ask and individual to give us blessing by his own power rather we ask them to intercede on our behalf due to the fact that they r more pious then us.
Where in sunni or shia says that Allah will not listen to us if we donot go to thought intercession. Intercession is not compulsory.

Its funny u mention the fact that Allah is closer to us then our juglur vain implying He is everywhere, but wahhabis denies that Allah is everywhere, it says that Allah has a form and it says that Allah is literally above us (implying that Allah is below the Australians).

[quote]
Originally posted by FactFinder:
*Regarding salat, you have given the shia version of genuineness of the Imam and of praying alone if in doubt. This is not according to the Sunnah. The sunnah is that when there are two or more people, the one who knows the Qur'an most should lead the prayer. Period. *
[/quote]

A genuine person is who is most knowleagable and who is pious.

[quote]
Originally posted by FactFinder:
What I am trying to highlight in this chain is the difference in beliefs and how fundamental they are. Unfortunately, another shia has opened a discussion in another chain. This is defeating the purpose of the discussion and is keeping it separated.
[/quote]

I donto understand. Wot r u saying? I have not seen the ‘other discussion’ which may be happening in another thread. I am quiet new here.

[This message has been edited by iqra_786 (edited November 23, 2001).]

23

Salam
Here we go! Its clever how the discussion really to be for shia bashing and it not new for me as I seen in other discussion forums. The site u gave is a wahhabi site and full of shia propaganda. And I have seen ppl cutting and pasting such lies from those sources. But I agree with u absolutely that these sources are worth reading to know wot kind of lies and falsehood is spread to hide the truth.

I would wish that sunni br/sr would learn from suuni ulema not wahhabis. Here are some link on such sunni sources:

  1. ahmed deedats lecture on shia sunnni unity http://www.geocities.com/ahlulbayt14/deedat.html

  2. a fatwa declaring shia madhab as 5th acceptable is given by world leading suuni instute in al azhar university in Egypt http://www.ezsoftech.com/akram/AVerdict.html

I am not a shia and not in the position of defending shais or discussing regarding it since I am still learning abt it. There are some shai link if ppl wanna find out abt shia from its own sources instead of relying on wahhabi propaganda.
www.al-islam.org (really good and very useful information) http://www.geocities.com/ahlulbayt14/

and yes FF before u do it like the other discussion forum to simply cut and paste information abt shias from its ‘own sources’ such as kafi and their haddith where its says that shais got diff quran etc, there r such haddith exist in shia sources and shias ulema reject such hadith just ;ike some of the haddith r rejected by suuni uleama to which can be found in sunni sources too. And we know for a fact that even imam bukary only taken few haddith comparing to the huge lot he came across.

24

[quote]
Originally posted by iqra_786:
**salam

Prophet himself used ot visit grave and make dua for the decreed. He used ot visit to his sons’ grave.
**
[/quote]

Visiting graves and making fatiha over there is not wrong but making it a place of worship is wrong. Thats what Fact Finder is implying. If you go to Data Darbar in Lahore, you can see people making dua and doing sajdaa to the graves.

Also buliding large domes on graves is prohibited.

25

[quote]
Originally posted by OASis:
** Visiting graves and making fatiha over there is not wrong but making it a place of worship is wrong. Thats what Fact Finder is implying. If you go to Data Darbar in Lahore, you can see people making dua and doing sajdaa to the graves.

Also buliding large domes on graves is prohibited. **
[/quote]

salam
well i thoguhgt ff finder meant the both. visitng is jsut as bad as worshiping. i have never been pakistan or i doubt that i will be able to go there. but in bangladesh i have seen ppl doing so many shocking things on grave. from vowign it to kissing. so wot? does it means we have to stop everyoen from visting the grave? its the fault/ignorance of the ppl if they worhsip grave, how on earth we suppose to know that wot is in their heart adn if they are worshipping the grave?

now suppose some ppl actually worship kaba when they pray towards it, does it means we all have to stop prayign towards kaba?prayign towards kaba becoems shirk, bida etc?

26

its the crappiest argument i have ever heard, allah specifically states in quran to face kaba when praying, so how can we define it as shirk? and it cant be bida because it was done by prophet PBUH i suggest u check their definitions of these terms before you start debating on them. and about worshipping the graves, we dont have to know their intent, sajda to any grave is not allowed period, not even to the grave of prophet PBUH so if it is not allowed the argument about intent is useless, you cant have permenant graves at all either. you also said this in ur earlier post

It is stripped-down Islam, calling for simple, short prayers, undecorated mosques, and the uprooting of gravestones (since decorated mosques and graveyards lend themselves to veneration, which is idolatry in the Wahhabi mind). Wahhabis do not even permit the name of the Prophet Mohammed to be inscribed in mosques, nor do they allow his birthday to be celebrated. Above all, they hate ostentatious spirituality, much as Protestants detest the veneration of miracles and saints in the Roman Church.

well first of all i would rather be called abdul wahab, becase wahab is the name of ALLAh and insulting some one with the name of allah is the limit of ignorance and may even cross into kufr. so please dont use this word, it insults the name of allah. and about not having the name of prophet PBUH on the mosque, why not? when i see the name of mohammed SAW next to allah in front of the mosque and when i prostrate, it can be taken by an outside observer as equating allah and prophet PBUH and as muslims praying to the mohammed PBUH and Allah SWT togther. now no matter how loved prophet SAW is by allah, he is not equal to allah. and putting his name next to him is a form of shirk. remember, the seal that prophet PBUH used as official seal of the islamic emirate, was simple a ring with mohammed ur rasool allah on it. but, allah was on top, rasool below that and mohammed SAW was below that. even though in the sentence the name of prophet SAW was first, it could not be over the name of allah let alone be next to it. it shows you how much care was taken in the time of prophet SAW to make sure ppl could not get the worng ideas of equating prophet with allah like the jews and chirtians did. and read this , it will tell you the other side of the story… http://jang.com.pk/jang/nov2001-weekly/sunmag-04-11-2001/index.html
click of afghanistan dosra rukh

27

[quote]
Originally posted by ThandyMazaq:
**
its the crappiest argument i have ever heard, allah specifically states in quran to face kaba when praying, so how can we define it as shirk? and it cant be bida because it was done by prophet PBUH i suggest u check their definitions of these terms before you start debating on them. and about worshipping the graves, we dont have to know their intent, sajda to any grave is not allowed period, not even to the grave of prophet PBUH so if it is not allowed the argument about intent is useless, you cant have permenant graves at all either. you also said this in ur earlier post**
[/quote]

salam
It may be crappies for u but it’s a logical argument. Read back, I said we pray towards kaba with the intention of praying to Allah not to worship kaba, but if someone pray towards kaba in the intention of worshipping kaba like the hindus does towards their idols then its haram, shirk. So my point is all go back to intention.

28

salam

How is the name Wahabi insulting?

Imam Abu HANIFA - hanafi
ABU ABDULLAH MALIK bin Anas - Maliki
Abu Abdullah Muhammad bin Idris - Shafi’i
Ahmed bin Muhammad HANBAL - Hanbali
Addul bin Wahab - ______?

? Isn’t Malik one of the beutiful names of Allah (SWT) too?

So, what is so offensive about the name? If Al Wahab is one of the names of Allah (SWT) surely one would be proud of this. How exactly is it a kufr or shall I say BIDA?
I just have ot make sure I don’t have prophet (pbuh) name on the wall or something when I pray just incase I am praying towars prophet or may be I might end up actually worshipping the wall? Or prayer mat perhaps? That’s wot ur logic is pointing out. Its all back to INTENTION which I bida too

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif

to pronounce according to wahhabis……

29

Good one

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

30

Dear sister iqra,

Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhaab did not ever refer to himself as 'Wahhaabi' niether did any of his students. Whereas the students of Imaam's Abu Haneefah, Sh'afi, Maalik and Hambal reffered to them as Hanafi, Sh'afi, Maliki and Hambali respectedly.

The people who attempt in degrading Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhaab call him, and those who agree with his actions and sayings, by the distinction 'Wahhaabi' as a derogatory term. And when Allaah - subhaan wa ta'aala's- Names or Attributes (in this case Wahhaab) is being used in a degrading fashion, then this is clearly not permissible.

"No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."

31

[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah:
**FF,

First, you have to prove that what the Taliban is implementing is actually the true shariah.

Could the shias be against the Taliban because in their opinion, the Talibanic so called shariah is not the shariah of our holy prophet (pbuh) ?**
[/quote]

Yaar we all know why Iran(Shias) oppose Taliban. And so do you.

“na maiN* momin vich masiitaa*N, na maiN* muusaa, na fir'aun!”
*

32

Please see these sites for more info on shias:
http://www.salaf.indiaaccess.com/shiites/index.htm
http://www.sultan.org/shia.html

Sherazz, you seem to be very misinformed about who the real
killer is in Afghanistan. It is one of the shia beliefs of kill and discredit sunnis. Hazaaras and other shia factions in Afghanistan have taken ever oppurtunity at hand to kill sunnis and they beleive that killing sunnis is ‘sawaab’ and they will be rewarded. Their leader Ibrahim(please correct me if 'm wrong) has openly expressed his view and intentions to kill sunnis. Now, If I were taliban, I would be very careful when I am around such company. Wouldn’t you be? I mean, if you know that I will kill you, would you try to do the same to me-knowing what my intentions are? I am sure you will make a wise decision.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif

Summery of shia beliefs:

  1. Ask Ali for help and not Allah. If asking allah for help, go through Ali( who is dead ). Sherazz’s custom title is living proof.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif

  1. Practice taqqiya(hiding, concealment of truth)

  2. Discredit Wives of Prophet. They say they were bad and they go to extremes in disrespect for them. Koraan says: good men are for good women and bad men are for bad women… now they ignore that. If wives of prophet are bad, that would make
    our beloved prophet bad too, according to them. Astaqfirullah.

  3. They dishonor and curse Sahaba(companions of MOhammad) openly.

  4. They believe that they have 12 Imams who are like prophets-they do not make mistakes, know when they will die…etc.

  5. They believe that Koraan is not complete and complete and original version is with their 12th imam who is hiding in some caves for past 1300 years…

  6. They go to graves of their Imams and elders to pray and bow down and ask them for help…

So, before you Shias jump in someone elses plate, why dont you look into your own qire-baan and see what you have done-before you discuss what Wahabism is or if taliban are bad.
Corrupt, misleading, misinformed, and distorted Islamic beliefs-and not to mention very confusing. Knowing what you people do when you go to graves of your own imams and disrespect them like you do, wahabis would never let you do that to our beloved prophet(saw).
He forbade us from worshipping his grave and bow down to his grave and warned us not to become like jews and christians who made graves of their prophets. That is one reason Abdul Wahab went out to stop what was happening in Arabia at the time. People were worshiping trees, graves, and all kinds of other kufr.
So, look upon yourselves and see what you are up too, and leave taliban and wahabism alone for now. You fail to practice your own religion right and you are here saying wahabis and taliban are bad? Give me a break, who gave you authority to make such discisions which only rest upon Allah to decide?

Leslie Stahl: “We have heard that a half million children have died (as a result of sanctions against Iraq). I mean, that is more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?” Madeleine Albright: “I think this is a very hard choice, but the price, we think the price is worth it.” – A CBS Sixty Minutes interview between Leslie Stahl and U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, on 12 May 1996

33

where have u been watcher? lol..its bout time..i was wondering if u went to afghanistan to do jihad with ur taleban brothers lol

anyways..its taleban who destroyed the whole shia towns in afghanista..after all they had the 90 % share right..and its ur dumb wahabi beliefs to kill shia and rape shia women..i know my religion does not tell me to kill any innocent person..even if that person is a kaafir..and even u admit they are cruel to their own women..forget bout the shias man..yet u will not say anything about it..can u treat ur women like that? just answer that

and why does it bother u so much if we make Ali our waseela? please let us..we are not making u do anything..just dont be jelous

34

[quote]
Originally posted by Hasnain:
***Dear sister iqra*,

Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhaab did not ever refer to himself as 'Wahhaabi' niether did any of his students. Whereas the students of Imaam's Abu Haneefah, Sh'afi, Maalik and Hambal reffered to them as Hanafi, Sh'afi, Maliki and Hambali respectedly.

The people who attempt in degrading Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhaab call him, and those who agree with his actions and sayings, by the distinction 'Wahhaabi' as a derogatory term. And when Allaah - subhaan wa ta'aala's- Names or Attributes (in this case Wahhaab) is being used in a degrading fashion, then this is clearly not permissible.

[/quote]

I agree with Hasnain over here. There is no such thing as "wahabi". His name was Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab, so Wahab was neither his first name nor his family name.

I spent about 20 years in Saudi Arabia and met thousand of Saudis. Not a single saudi claims himself to be as "wahabi", even they dont know this term. This wahabi term was started by Barelvis and shias.

And most of the Saudis either follow Imam Hanbal or Imam Shafaee.

And yes, Saudis are against bidaa. This strict behavior is needed in Makkah and Madinah, otherwise, our desi brothers would start Qawalis and Urs at Rauza-e-rasool and start doing sajda there.

35

[quote]
Originally posted by OASis:
** This wahabi term was started by Barelvis and shias.

And yes, Saudis are against bidaa. This strict behavior is needed in Makkah and Madinah, otherwise, our desi brothers would start Qawalis and Urs at Rauza-e-rasool and start doing sajda there.

**
[/quote]

Very true. The Wahabi term was initiated by those Ulema of the sub-continent who felt threatened by the removal of bidatee rites inherited from Hindu culture that gave them prominence in society.

I have personally seen many bidatee/shirkee practices that the shia and people from subcontinent do in Makkah and Madinah. In Makkah, the shia sit on the side facing the hateem. This is because Ali (radhi Allaho anho) was apparently born there. Isn't this shirk. The importance of Kaaba as the house of Allah and everything else becomes secondary, the place of birth of a companion becomes paramount.

In Madinah, the shias will not come to pay their respects to Rasool Allah (sallallaho alaihe wasallam). They will stand outside and cry, in memory of Ali and Fatima (radhi Allaho anhum).

The sunnis with weak knowledge will raise their hands and supplicate to Rasool Allah (sallallaho alaihe wasallam). I know some people who are living in Jeddah. They will not go to Makkah as frequently as they do to Madinah. Isn't this shirk? If not, I think they are on the border line and only Allah knows their intentions.

Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.

36

[quote]
Originally posted by Sheraz CT:
** and its ur dumb wahabi beliefs to kill shia and rape shia women..**
[/quote]

Load of rubbish. Why would a man rape a woman who is ready for muta'?

**
[quote]
and why does it bother u so much if we make Ali our waseela? please let us..we are not making u do anything..just dont be jelous**
[/quote]

Waseela is not required. Period. Allah has said so many times in the Qur'an ask and He will give. He has said that He is closer than the inner garment. Is Ali (radhi Allaho anho) closer?

No we cannot stop as we have to try and stop all shirk and bidat as they will only take people to jahannum.

Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.

37

Follows of Muawiya will never learn.....

38

Load of rubbish. Why would a man rape a woman who is ready for muta’?

Waseela is not required. Period. Allah has said so many times in the Qur’an ask and He will give. He has said that He is closer than the inner garment. Is Ali (radhi Allaho anho) closer?

No we cannot stop as we have to try and stop all shirk and bidat as they will only take people to jahannum.

So FF you finally showed up! You said serious discussion in your post opening and now you are throwing garbage on other creeds.

My suggestions

  1. you really should “strive for life hereafter”
  2. you should act and meditate on your signature 5 times a day.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

you undesratand what I mean.
Take care.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/cool.gif

**
[/QUOTE]

39

[quote]
Originally posted by OASis:
** I agree with Hasnain over here. There is no such thing as "wahabi". His name was Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab, so Wahab was neither his first name nor his family name.

I spent about 20 years in Saudi Arabia and met thousand of Saudis. Not a single saudi claims himself to be as "wahabi", even they dont know this term. This wahabi term was started by Barelvis and shias.

And most of the Saudis either follow Imam Hanbal or Imam Shafaee.

And yes, Saudis are against bidaa. This strict behavior is needed in Makkah and Madinah, otherwise, our desi brothers would start Qawalis and Urs at Rauza-e-rasool and start doing sajda there.

**
[/quote]

Salam
Ok wot shall we call the follower of muhammaad ibn abdul wahhab? The reason why I use wahhabi term is cos everywhere one is familiar with this term. Well I guess I can use the term ‘salafi’?
Well I remember few days back a member of Saudi royal family wanted to donate some money towards wtc and he mentioned that only Saudis are wahhabi. So there u go, after 20 years u found some one who call themselves wahhabi. The reason why wahhabi don’t want to call themselves whahbis is cos it has very bad history.

40

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Spanky:
**
Please see these sites for more info on shias: http://www.salaf.indiaaccess.com/shiites/index.htm http://www.sultan.org/shia.html **

Open salafi site! wot a suprise.. NOT…

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/tongue.gif

**
Summery of shia beliefs:

  1. Ask Ali for help and not Allah. If asking allah for help, go through Ali( who is dead ). Sherazz’s custom title is living proof. **

Load of rubbish, shiaism doesn’t require or encourage to call ali for help. As a matter of fact that there is certain verso on the quran which says that martyrs r not considered to be dead. and Imam Ali (ra) was a martye.

**2. Practice taqqiya(hiding, concealment of truth) **

wahhabis r excellent in taqwa. All the whabbi I know they preach wahhabism under the name of ahlul sunna al jama.

**3. Discredit Wives of Prophet. They say they were bad and they go to extremes in disrespect for them. Koraan says: good men are for good women and bad men are for bad women… now they ignore that. If wives of prophet are bad, that would make
our beloved prophet bad too, according to them. Astaqfirullah. **

wot abt Noahs (as) and Lut (as)’s wife? They were mentioned in the Quran who went against Allah and the prophets? Now r u saying those prophets were bad just cos their wives were disbeliever? astagfirullah

**4. They dishonor and curse Sahaba(companions of MOhammad) openly. **

show me the money.. opppes, I mean show me the book where recognised shai ulema actually did such thing. Not a 10 years old shia kid neighbour.

**5. They believe that they have 12 Imams who are like prophets-they do not make mistakes, know when they will die…etc. **

sunnis belief (according to bukari and muslim) there will be 12 leader after last prophet (pbuh). Don’t u believe Imam Mehidi will be the last just leader of Muslim ummah? Do u think the leader of the world will commit sin and make mistakes?

6. They believe that Koraan is not complete and complete and original version is with their 12th imam who is hiding in some caves for past 1300 years…

lies. They donot believe that. Both shia and sunni believes Quran is complete despite the fact that both shia and sunni hadith books have haddith (which likely to be false and rejected by most of the ulemas) that quran is not complete etc.

**7. They go to graves of their Imams and elders to pray and bow down and ask them for help… **

they donot. They do visit to graves just like sunnis. They don’t ask imam for help rather may have use them as wasila/ interceder. Do u reject the Quranic verse,
…who can intercede with Him except His permission?…… (2:255) implying the fact that Allah gave permission to certain pious ppl to intercede.

**So, before you Shias jump in someone elses plate, why dont you look into your own qire-baan and see what you have done-before you discuss what Wahabism is or if taliban are bad. **

the discussion is about teleban and why they r rejected by shia and sunni ulema. If it was abt shias believe then we would have talk abt shia believe init?

Corrupt, misleading, misinformed, and distorted Islamic beliefs-and not to mention very confusing. Knowing what you people do when you go to graves of your own imams and disrespect them like you do, wahabis would never let you do that to our beloved prophet(saw).

corrupt, mislead, misformed and disroted innovated by wahhabis who r backed up by west. From the destruction of al baqee to the destruction of prophet house in both mecca and median, wahhbais intention is not to leave any track of islam. In the name of bida and shirk they are whipping away all the historical/ archaeological proof of islam that is still left. They have conqured the holy land of islam and its was prophesised by Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) that Imam mehdi will free these holy lands when he comes.

He forbade us from worshipping his grave and bow down to his grave and warned us not to become like jews and christians who made graves of their prophets. That is one reason Abdul Wahab went out to stop what was happening in Arabia at the time. People were worshiping trees, graves, and all kinds of other kufr.
So, look upon yourselves and see what you are up too, and leave taliban and wahabism alone for now. You fail to practice your own religion right and you are here saying wahabis and taliban are bad? Give me a break, who gave you authority to make such discisions which only rest upon Allah to decide?

who gave u the authority to judge wot is in one’s heart that if they were worshiping grave? Or doing shirk?